First Truck for a Tractorman

DVerbarg · Jul 28, 2001

Glenn,

Like Bird said, don't believe a word a sales person tells you at a dealer when it comes to engineering numbers.

It sounds like towing a trailer will be a sporadic activity. If the truck is to be used all the time for commuting with only an occasional tow then some of the smaller trucks can work OK if you are in flat lands and you have a large enough engine and appropriate transmission. Had a '81 GMC half-ton (6 cyl) that I used to pull a 16ft trailer. Ruined the transmission "torque convertor" locking mechanism when pulling 6000 lbs on flat roads at 45 mph for 25 miles. Transmission still worked fine, the "overdrive" just never worked again (and fuel economy dropped 3 mpg).

Since getting rid of the truck I have used my parent's Ford 3/4 ton van to tow the trailer with my TC40D. Not sure which engine they have but know that it is one of the smaller 8 cylinders. Have to baby it, even in these flat lands. Also wish I had trailer brakes. But for the occasional tow every few months, it seems to be OK. If I were going to be towing every couple of weeks I would have to get another truck. I would get a 3/4 ton Diesel. The diesels get much better fuel economy for the same amount of torque. Diesels usually last longer but the fuel usually costs a little more. My ideal truck would have the sterotypical reliability of the Toyota name, the frame and diesel engine of the Ford, the front suspension of the Chevy, and the looks of the Dodge.

DaveV

Kelvin · Jul 28, 2001

You say that you have decided that you may go for an extended cab but not a quad cab. How are you defining "quad cab"? To some, that is a 4-door pickup. In the full-sized Dodge, Quad Cab is the extended cab model with the rear doors that open up.

I personally feel that an extended cab truck with rear doors is the way to go. For convience and resale value. All you have to do is put a set of golf clubs in the back seat or a set of tools in the rear floor board a time or two before you realize how nice it is to not have to fight the front seats.

Dodge Dakota: I have the older model non-aerodymanic Dakota Club Cab (4x4, V8 with 3:92 axle ratio) which I use to tow my 6.5x16' dual axle trailer with B2150 with FEL and finish mower (the B2150 is slightly heavier than the B2710 and B2910) when I am not using the '74 Ford Rollback. It has 6 seat belts and is suitable as a backup family vehicle, but the back seat is not especially large; the newer model that you may be looking seems even smaller to me. My Dakota does an excellent job pulling the load and an adequate job stopping the load (I do have to have my front rotors turned more often than I used to before the towing duties began...). The 2001 models are rated to tow over 6,000lbs when properly equipped (ie, towing package). I strongly recommend the V8 engine and the 3.92 axle ratio if you go with the Dakota.

Toyota: I believe that the Tundra V8 is the only Toyota to consider. I don't know what the tow ratings are. The Tundra is labeled as a "full sized" pickup and is larger than the Dakota.

Chevy, Dodge & Ford Full Sized Trucks: As has been mentioned, a full size truck is probably the best way to go for towing. You don't want a dually (4 wheels on the rear). Other than looking at the model number or the number of lugs on the wheels the 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks look pretty much alike. For the "properly equipped" Dodge full size with V8 or larger engine, the towing capacity starts at 7170 lbs for the 1/2 ton and 8400 for the 3/4 ton models. The V10 and diesel 3/4 models' towing capacity starts out about 13,000 lbs. Ford and Chevy specifications are similiar.

1969 Dodge Charger: My first car was a copper-colored 1969 Plymouth Road Runner and like you, wished I still had it.

Good luck. Sounds like you are going through the same experience as buying the first tractor.

Kelvin

Bird · Jul 28, 2001

1969 Dodge Charger: My first car was a copper-colored 1969 Plymouth Road Runner

Being a little older than you kids, it was a long ways from my first car, but I bought one of the first ('68) Road Runners; green metallic and my wife wishes she still had it./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif It sure would scat, but I still remember what kind of gas mileage it got, too./w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

Bird

Bird · Jul 28, 2001

Glennmac, for an example of the trailering chart I mentioned in the previous post, go to http://www.chevrolet.com/silverado/index.htm and click on the "trailering chart" in the upper right corner and it'll list the different trailer weights for different Chev. pickups with different engines and differentials. You can pull trailers in excess of 8,000 lbs. with a properly equipped half ton pickup (of course you may not like it as well as a 3/4 ton).

Bird

RobertN · Jul 28, 2001

Sure, 8000-8800 is probably just right.

So, you have a 2000lb trailer. Now, lets add equipment... Based on what I have, and yes, some weights are guesstimates...

2000 Trailer
1300 Kubota B8200
500 Scraper
400 rotary mower
800 loader
100 tools, shovels, tie downs, "ect"
50 ice chest, beer/soda/tea, sandwich
40 5gal diesel
---------
5190lbs estimated

So, now, most ad's I see on tv talk about 5000lb trailer capacity for various 1/2 tons. So, you are already exceeding that. So, you only tow occasionally, yet you are exceeding 100% of the capacity of the truck. Even with trailer brakes, you are in a dangerous zone. What happens when that kid chases the ball right out in front of you? You are overloaded and can't miss them...

So, I jaust pulled that yesterday during a side job behind my 8800lb rated 3/4 ton. I still had plenty of safety room; I was only running the truck at 59% capacity. Now, add the yard of road base I need to haul Monday, in the bed, whil I still have the above load on the trailer; I'm still in the safe zone. It may not be pretty when I react to miss the above mentioned kid, but it should be safer.

So, a 3/4 ton truck is very reasonable for hauling these tractors around.

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

RobertN · Jul 28, 2001

Add up the numbers like the ones I posted before reading this; that's what you want to take to the dealer. When you look at the numbers, remember, you doun't want your load at 100 % of what the truck can handle. Just because it can, does not mean you want to operate it there.

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

glennmac · Jul 28, 2001

Looked at trucks. By quad, I mean the 4 door models. Yes, I can understand the convenience of the 4 doors, but they get their extra length at the expense of shortening the truck's bed. I dont want another passenger vehicle; I want a hauling vehicle.

I think we are overemphasizing the trailering. It would only be very occasional, but it is hilly here. Hauling implements and lumber and gravel and logs and commuters will be what it does the vast majority of time.

Talk about complicated! Dodge gave me a 21 page brochure entitled 2001 Towing Guide. Definitions, acronyms, formulas, tables, Class I to IV, axle ratios, engines, weight distributing hitches, geese necks--this is rocket science.

Robert, your math makes a good point. Then when I add in my weight, we've even got a worse problem.

Aside from all this fuzzy trailer math, my first reaction is that the Dakota is too big. Saw a Tacoma and it looked a little small, and I didnt like that it was so very high off the ground. They must make it for so-called offroading. I say off road, schmoff road. Nobody does that. This is Connecticut, not Afganhistan! I might like something something between the size of the Dakota and Tacoma, which could handle maybe 6500 pounds.

By the way, I cant relate anything to this 1/2 ton 3/4 ton terminology everyone is slinging around. None of the literature uses that terminology, none of the elaborate definitions use it, and none of the weight capacity or payload statistics are anywhere near as low as 1/2 ton, which as I recall is 1000 lbs.

I said my first new car was the Charger. I have no doubt, however, that Bird owned a car earlier than I did. I think the legal driving age in Texas is about 14yrs old (compared to 18 in New York), and from my two years living in Austin I think the actual driving age was as low as 10 yrs old out in the boonies.

kerr · Jul 28, 2001

69 charger,black ,mickey thompson wheels ,big ol fat tires.440-4barrel,4-speed 15 yrs old.Alabama was kinda easy ta get around in.O,8 trek tape player!Get a 3/4 ton full size GMC long wheel base.Any engine ya want ,your set.

Wheeldog · Jul 28, 2001

cowboydoc,

This thread is pretty well moved along and it sounds like glenmac has gotten some good guidance. Given the fact that many people here (including myself) respect your views quite a bit, I have to respond to a couple of statements that you made.

Also they are a relatively new design and they have been redesigning them ever since they came out to get them right. 
What are you referring to here? The original Toyota 4x4 pickup was sold from between 1979 and 1995 and was very much the same design throughout. EFI was added in the early 80's, the front suspension was changed in 86'(?), and a V6 option was added in the late 80's. Other than that, the changes were sheet metal for the most part. The Tacoma came out in 1995 and still uses the same two engines, same transmissions, same suspension - just cosmetic changes as I understand it. If anything Toyota is usually criticized for not changing their truck designs more often. Are you referring to the Tundra (new in 1999, I think)? What exactly do they keep re-designing?

The new Fords, not to say Chevy and Dodge don't just not as familiar with them, are every bit as reliable as the Toyota
What sort of evidence are you basing this on?

Rob

Bird · Jul 28, 2001

Actually, Glennmac, my first drivers license was in Oklahoma at the age of 16 (moved to Texas shortly before my 17th birthday), but yes, I started driving my aunt's car ('47 Ford coupe) when I was 11. And Dad was mad at me and her both when he found out./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Bird

cowboydoc · Jul 29, 2001

Wheeldog,
First just let me say that I am pretty humbled by the respect you give me in what I say. I appreciate that.
I am just going off of what was written about the Toyota truck. I get a ton of magazines at the office and read them from time to time. The last one, I believe was car and driver and they were talking about Toyota's attempt to break into the hot 1/2 ton market. It was pretty much admitted by the Toyota rep. that they hadn't done that with the Tacoma and so they came out with the Tundra to match specs by the big three. Like ALL trucks that come out with new designs there are design flaws to work out. All I meant by the comment was that Toyota was still trying to get it right as far as having a winner in the 150 market. Not in any way did I mean that Toyota didn't make a good pickup. But pickup and pickup truck are two different things in my opinion. In my youth I had two of those Toyota toys. I tricked them all out with big tires, roll bars, nerf bars, etc. They were a 4 wheeling dream! I loved them. Never had one lick of trouble with them and drove them hard. But I don't believe that they are anything to be used as a tow machine, especially not even in the league if Glenn may be towing 8k, even once in awhile, just not a good idea safety and pickup wise. So please don't take my comments about the Toyota as meant that Toyota is junk. They are a great pickup just not a good pickup truck in my eyes.

According to Fords literature they are the longest lasting trucks on the road. There are more Fords per capita on the road at specific time intervals than other trucks. Also when they did analysis of trouble with vehicles they were all within 10% of each other. The article that I read on this was commenting about how American mfg. had caught up in reliablility to the imports. The only exception was Honda which Saturn was giving a run for its money. I can tell you what magazines we get at the office on monday if you want. You could probably do a search on their websites and find the articles that I'm referring to.

woodstock · Jul 29, 2001

Glenn,
There is one thing certain, you need about 14 different vehicles to satisfy all the transportation needs.
My purdie truck is a 2001 Dakota Quad Cab with a sucked out 3.9 V6 and crappy 3.56 hwy gears but it gets 22 mpg.
My dirty truck, when new was my purdie truck, is a ford Ranger extended cab 4X4 peppy 4.0 L V6 with excellent 4.10 pulling gears. I can load the JD 316 in the box with ramps.

My working horse is the chevy 2 ton dump.

Your right about one thing, make sure the wife can drive it.

Winnipeg, Manitoba

2001 BX2200 (20 hrs) All Kubota FEL,Tiller, box blade, blower w/elec shute, 60 mid mt deck, Ag tires.
Grey market B7000 w/Tiller (120 hrs)
1984 JD 316 after 687 hrs.

Wheeldog · Jul 29, 2001

cowboydoc,

Okay, fair enough. I agree that if the towing load is in the 8000 lb range then that is no place for the Tacoma or any of the compact 1/2-tons. As far as the Tundra, most of the write-ups I've read praise the V8 engine but knock the lack of additional engine choices, body configurations, etc., in comparison to the domestic models. They usually conclude that the Tundra is a good "first attempt" at a true full-size 1/2-ton pickup (v. the earlier T100).

I get a little fired-up about reliability comparisons, since my own experience showed a night-and-day difference between one domestic compact pickup (bought new in 1990) and my current Toyota (a 95'). However, I do understand there are many people who have had much better luck with their domestic trucks than I had with mine.

Thanks for replying.

Rob

cowboydoc · Jul 29, 2001

Wheeldog,
You're right it's hard to compare with others. One of the ladies that I teach with at the University had a Tacoma and it was in the shop all the time. All she towed was a two horse trailer and horses. She went through two transmission, a rear end, etc. My family has always had Ford diesels since 1983. You can pretty much bet the farm and what and when will go wrong on them. Around 100-150k you will have to rebuild the water pump and the injector pump. Another 150k the same thing. About the same mileage and you will have to fix the front end. But that's it for about 350-500k of mileage. The kid that works for me has a Chevy pickup that he just traded off. It was an 89 4wd with 225,000 miles and never a lick of trouble. My medical rep for braces and supports also has the Ford F-150 and he gets a new one every three years. His last one he said had 240,000 and he had almost no problems with it. He was going Ford again. The farmer here that helps me alot has an Toyota with that diesel engine that they came out with for awhile, 85 I think. The body and everything else is completely falling off of it but it still runs like a champ and he has over 300k on it. So who knows really. I've heard horror stories from every brand and great things from every brand. I do believe though that the curve isn't very great between any of them anymore as far as reliablility goes.

DrDan · Jul 30, 2001

Cowboydoc,
I trying to wear out a Ford E150 Van right now. Got 145,000 on it and the damn thing even refuses to use a little oil! Got the 302 V-8 and auto transmission. It's grossly underpowered but it just keeps on going. Only thing I've ever done is replace the front wheelbearings, brakes and exhaust pipes. It is absolutely amazing the miles you can get out of vehicles thses days. Gosh in all those miles I only changed sparkplugs once. Of course I religiously change oil and grease every 3000 with premium oil. Ya the diesels act a lot happier with new injectors at 70,000 and I rebuilt the injector pump also. Gotta be careful with glow plugs. There are all kinds of horror stories about tips breaking off and ending up in the end of a piston or sticking a valve open and frying it. Of course these are in the idiots trucks that try to run them 300k! What ya expect. I used to be a Chevy man, but the extreme reliability and low maintenence on Fords has converted me.

Dr Dan

DVerbarg · Jul 30, 2001

Glenn,

Regarding: I cant relate anything to this 1/2 ton 3/4 ton terminology everyone is slinging around. This is an "old" terminology from the early 80s and before. The old naming conventions for trucks were that anything that started with a "10" (10, 100, 1000) was a "half-ton". Then they beefed up some suspension used the "15" prefix (15, 150, 1500) sold it for more money and called it a "heavy duty half-ton". The original "10" series were dropped due to marketing and everyone stuck with the "15" prefixes. 3/4 ton units had the same basic story but used the "20" prefix and "25" prefix for "heavy duty". 1 ton units used the "30" and "35" prefix. The American manufacturers still use the basic naming convention but I believe Japanese mfgs dropped it a few years ago. Hope this helps.

DaveV

glennmac · Jul 30, 2001

Dave, thanks. I realized it was a historical term, which I assumed related to payload. But it doesnt (except relatively). The young sales reps coulnt explain it to me, although they clearly knew which of their models were which.

Anderson · Jul 30, 2001

I too am looking at getting a new truck, and being confused by the trailering specs. I don't see differences in the specs for single and double rear wheels.

Can someone explain when you should buy a dual rear wheel pickup?

dmccarty · Jul 30, 2001

Glennmac,

You are getting some good advice. I'll throw out some stuff that is out of the box somewhat....

My Chevy has been a disaster. Its a 2500 with a turbo diesel, extended cab, long bed and 5 speed tranny. I've put something like $5,000 into this thing over the last two years or so. All powertrain. The fuel problem on the engine which is apparently a given on the 6.5 turbo diesels. A rebuilt tranny. This is a heavy duty tranny with a PTO option. And I just had to replace the clutch. Heavy duty as well that cost $1,200. So much for heavy duty. The truck has hauled gravel, mulch, and dirt. Never towed a thing. Just went over 70,000 miles. Enough whining by me! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

As far as towing. I think you are seeing that short of a 250/2500 truck you are going to be pushing the limits of the vehicle. While I did not two with my truck I hauled in something like 20+ tons of dirt, gravel and mulch. I'm sure that is what killed the tranny. My dad had a Dodge full size and used it to two is bass boat. He was well under the ratings for the truck but he went through a tranny as well.

Because of all of the above I want a truck that has a decent payload so I can keep the load well under the ratings on the vehicle. Maybe I just had bad luck but I'm paranoid at this part about payload.

Money. From what I have been seeing, the price on a new diesel 250/2500 to 350/3500 truck with 4x4, extended cab, etc is getting close to 40K. I'm seeing new Ford 450/550 trucks in the same price range. The 450/550's have much higher load and towing ratings over the pickups. So If the same dollar buys a 350 or a 450 I would get a 450. The 450/550s are "commercial" vehicles so some dealers won't even stock them.

However, I'm seeing lots of adverts on TV and in the newspaper that show the 150/1500 trucks at some sane prices for a change. A 1500 for 22-25,000 dollars with extended cab and 4x4. Not a diesel and it does not have the towing capacity but its also not 35-40,000 dollars. On the other hand I know of two dealers selling F450 diesel trucks, regular cab, manual tranny and a dump flat bed with 4,000 miles for 24-25,000 dollars. I know of another dealer that has a NEW 1999, yes 1999, F450 truck like I just described with 35 miles on the vehicle. Not sure of the price, it must be high since no one is buying AND I think I would scared of buying a truck that has been sitting for two to three years....

SOOOO, this is much more truck than you asked for but if you really need to tow and the price is right you might get a REAL truck to match the tractor! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Until the prices started to fall recently I was thinking of trading in the Chevy and getting a new truck. The problem is/was, what kind of truck. A small vehicle that would be cheap to buy/run. Or go get a 450/550 that would cost the same as a replacement of the Chevy but do a heck of a lot more work. The answer? I don't know! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I don't want to spend any money and the Chevy is paid for so I keep driving it. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Hope this helps The Decision....
Dan McCarty

RobS · Jul 30, 2001

The dual rear wheels on a pickup have more to do with stability and "insurance" for a blowout than anything else. For all out load carrying capacity a one ton, single rear wheel, two wheel drive usually has the highest rating. Duallies look cool though /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif