generator to home panel connection

[ninefinger]

Thank you Mace Canute, I have honestly just scanned this tread because early on I could see where it was going. Been in the field for 32 years and change and when I hear a generator running I shut the crew down until I find out what is going on. I WILL NOT let one of my guys get hurt by some stuck on stupid consumer back feeding our equipment. I do not care how long they have been out. During major system wide outages most of us are going home to a dark house as well after 18+ hour days and our wives and kids have had to fend for themselves

 

[whitedogone]

Yes on the wall is a female outlet twist lock on. same as on the generator. Thus you need a cord with a male on each end. completly safe unless you grab the male prungs that stick out. Thats the point You have to be careful . But what is the alternative? a male rescessed outlet plug?
http://www.federalindustrialsales.com/images/electrical/hbl2751.jpg

this cord end would only be live when the generator is started. So the cord is plugged into the wall outlet first then the generator started.simple procedure. And being of the twist variety I guess no one will use it in a regular outlet and find the female end live.
I dont believe there is any other alternative. thus the lack of replys other than is unsafe.
only other way i see is to have a disconnect box with a line out that would have to have a female twist to plug into the generator and then youd be relying on the disconnect to be OFF when you are not using it. padlock perhaps but far more likely to remain energized.

The alt. is a rated transfer switch. I wouldn't put my name one that with a 10' pole. You wouldn't be getting power with that setup from me.

 

[MrMiller]

As a Journeyman Lineman I can say without a doubt that it is absolutely possible to backfeed through a transformer and energize neighbours services. Depending on the time of day and time of year, there may be so little combined load that the generator handles it very well! And who's to say the dangerous voltage always has to be the higher voltage? 120V is more than adequate to cause ventricular fibrillation. Also, read up on shunt wound generators. They will drop off output voltage as resistance load goes up. Enough resistance load and they will run but not produce any voltage. A Lineman can check for voltage, find none, and then disconnect enough load that the generator is able to produce voltage again. This is NOT a hypothetical situation, it has happened.



Are you saying you consider it acceptable to backfeed into a transformer and produce dangerous voltages if you only do it for a short time? How long do you think you could handle 14,400 volts going through your body before you were harmed?


Once again: It is NOT the responsibility of the utility to guarantee there is no backfed condition, it is the responsibility of the customer to guarantee he cannot backfeed into the utilities system.

I never said I thought it was acceptable to back feed the line in fact I said the opposite, "I will assume straight off that this is not a great idea... ". I even pointed out that if the solution was not CSA/UL approved I would stay away!

I was merely saying that I could not see how a small generator could power the local neighborhood. I stand corrected, your experience (and the other lineman) certainly wins out. Still I bet most improperly connected generators pop a breaker.

This was all that I was pointing out. Don't have nor will I have a secret lineman death trap installed in my house! I am way too cheap and will just run the cord in from outside to restore some power! ;-)

Oh ya, 120V (definitely 14,400V) across you is certainly enough to get a current through you that could leave you dead.

S.

 

[Mace Canute]

Thank you, Mr. Miller!

The subject of generators and backfeeding onto utility lines is definitely one that pushes ALL my buttons, as everyone has plainly seen! I'm quite passionate about it and I hope I don't come off looking like I am doing a personal attack on anyone. I have had a few friends and acquaintances injured (and one killed) from contact with high voltage lines. I once came this close(holding fingers a c-hair apart) to getting serious burned and possibly killed myself (through absolutely no fault of my own btw).

 

[Bedlam]

Yes no ''winning'' here. People are so personal about it I dont think they can sit and figure out what the poster really means or does.
I for one have no clue what the last poster ment in reference to my post.
In my situation there isnt backfeeding becasue I shut the main off. Thats been standard procedure for the last 35 years for me.(right or wrong) for people.

I think this thread will go on and on , without much change.All good ideas and viewpoints,respectibly.

All good points to ponder, and consider for safe use .Thats what the forums are about at least to me.So alls good.

 

[brin]

I've got a 20KW PTO Generator that I will use with my tractor as a back up power source and when we built the house several years ago I told the electrician to run the circuits with that in mind..On the outside of our house we have two electrical panels....one is sealed just accessible by the elect. co. the other has 3 swithches in it and the electrician has told me I turn all three of those swithces off and that disconnects me from the grid and then I plug my cable coming from the panel inside my house into my generator and start it up..There is no transfer switch and the electrician said none is neccessary since when I throw those three swithches it disconnects the whole house from the grid...Comments ?

 

[tommu56]

A couple of different flavors of interlock kits for their panels



QO2DTIM and QO2DTI

Circuit Breaker Mechanical Interlock, Circuit Breaker Type: Standard

http://www.schneider-electric.us/products-services/product-detail/?event=datasheet&partnumber=QO2DTIM&countrycode=us

qocgk2

Load Center Mechanical Interlock, UL Listed, Circuit Breaker Interlock, QO

http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Electrical%20Distribution/Load%20Centers/Accessories,%20QO%20(LK,%20PK,%20QO,%20QON)/40273-809-02.pdf


I have use these on a couple of panels and they are a lot usually cheaper than the third party ones


Tom

 

[hr3]

Brin,, "Comments.". "pictures" or if you would or part numbers off what he intalled outside your house... The way you say it they are no more than what started this whole thread in the first place,,,

It's hard to say what you have without more infomation,, I think I know what he did...but will hold judgment for more infomation,,, "would love to see it though"

 

[jb62901]

Think I'll stick with this guy It works no ?????

http://i31.tinypic.com/90oolw.jpg

 

[Bedlam]

Many different ways to do it , as many ways for people to find safety faults. What ultimately matters is that there is no current flowing to the pole.

 

[rambler]

Thank you Mace Canute, I have honestly just scanned this tread because early on I could see where it was going. Been in the field for 32 years and change and when I hear a generator running I shut the crew down until I find out what is going on. I WILL NOT let one of my guys get hurt by some stuck on stupid consumer back feeding our equipment. I do not care how long they have been out. During major system wide outages most of us are going home to a dark house as well after 18+ hour days and our wives and kids have had to fend for themselves

The storms on the coasts get all the media attention; those of us living in the northern central part of the States deal with a blizzard every few years that can shut down the electric coops or companies for 3-6 days or more. When it is either side of zero degrees outside.

In those cases, people will have backup power, or they will freeze to death.

As this country tries to go green and get rid of coal, we are going to face some seroius rolling blackouts, and the need for backup power will fall on many of our shoulders. Try to take care of livestock on a farm without electricty - water, fans, feeding augers.....

I understand the issues linemen have with this backfeeding. You shall understand the issues we consumers have when the power goes out. We are not all stupid consumers.

Any of the interlock devices need to not allow the main breaker to be 'on' whenever the backfeed is in use. It can't be something you 'remember', but it has to be a reral, physical thing that does not allow any other option - main breaker off whenever the backfeed circut is on. Period.

Transfer switches do this, the original poster's plates do this.

--->Paul

 

[brin]

I agree with Bedlam ....I had a licensed electrician who has been in business for over 30 years hook up my Generator connection and there is no transfer switch or kit. I throw 3 switches off in one of the electical boxes on the side of the house and I am completely disconnected from the grid. When I do it ..all power in my house goes off. Then I plug in my generator which is wired directly into the 2 main panels " inside " my house and power up. It is just that simple and there is no way for any back feed of power to take place since I am off the grid. If those main panels on the outside of the house are not safe then I would have never received a certificate of occupancy and would have failed the final building inspection. If we have reached the point in this country where we can't trust electrical panel boxes and the switches in them that are installed when we build our houses then we are indeed in trouble. As far as someone being so stupid as to not know to flip the switches off before they fire up their generator then we should not let anyone drive a car or truck or fly airplanes etc. anymore...Just saying....LOL...Everyone has their oppinion and all comments are appreciated but I will go with a licensed electrician with 30+ years experience who installed it...

 

[hr3]

A question for those who transfer there whole load with some sort of set up other than a automatic transfer switch,, How do you tell when the utility power has returned ??

 

[Ductape]

A question for those who transfer there whole load with some sort of set up other than a automatic transfer switch,, How do you tell when the utility power has returned ??

Look and see if the neighbor's lights are on?

 

[Bedlam]

If you have them close enough.I usually have ti drive down the street and even then dont know as so many have generators now.

 

[Mace Canute]

"If those main panels on the outside of the house are not safe then I would have never received a certificate of occupancy and would have failed the final building inspection."

brin, I went to Internet Archive: Free Download: Georgia Electrical Code and downloaded the PDF file. In it I found the following under Optional Standby Systems. I won't print out everything, but I think the following covers the pertinent points. (I tried to not leave anything out).

Transfer equipment shall be suitable for the intended use and designed and installed so as to prevent the inadvertent interconnection of normal and alternate
sources of supply in any operation of the transfer equipment.

Transfer equipment shall be required for all standby
systems subject to the provisions of this article and for
which an electric-utility supply is either the normal or
standby source.

Exception: Temporary connection of a portable generator
without transfer equipment shall be permitted where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the installation and where the normal supply is physically isolated by a lockable disconnect means or by disconnection of the normal supply conductors.

Transfer Switch. An automatic or nonautomatic device for
transferring one or more load conductor connections from
one power source to another.

Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical
equipment and installations and has received safety training on the hazards involved.

FPN: Refer to NFPA 70E-2004, Standard for Electrical
Safety in the Workplace, for electrical safety training
requirements.

So it appears you have two choices...a real transfer switch or equipment and personal that meets the requirement of the "Exception" rule. You're not using a transfer switch so you would by default fall under the "Exception" rule. This is pretty specific in that it states first and foremost that only a Qualified Person is allowed to operate the lockable disconnect or disconnect the normal supply conductors. From your post, I suspect you are a home owner, and not an electrician let alone one who has also received safety training on the hazards involved per NFPA 70E-2004 and hence legally able to operate your system. I would also suspect your electrician was not fully cognizant of the code requirements for the temporary connection of a portable generator. Ditto for the inspector who did the final building inspection.

Should the worst case scenario come to happen, you may be in for a heap of trouble and none of it your fault, since it appears you went the distance and hired an electrician to do the work. Lots of people get caught up in litigation not because they did anything wrong or are a fault. You know the old saying about when the s**t hits the fan, everybody around gets covered, eh!

"If we have reached the point in this country where we can't trust electrical panel boxes and the switches in them that are installed when we build our houses then we are indeed in trouble."

I've seen in several stores, recall notices for household breakers. Some were just plain bad, some were counterfeit. Google "recall of breakers" and lots of information comes up. It is scary! You can't even really trust a breaker to open up on an overload every time. Some don't. I know of one electrician who prefer fuses over breakers for protection of equipment for just this reason, and I have personally seen several fuses that were manufactured wrong in that their actual rating was a LOT higher than their marked rating. (non failed ones from the batch were tested).

"As far as someone being so stupid as to not know to flip the switches off before they fire up their generator then we should not let anyone drive a car or truck or fly airplanes etc."

Sad to say, there ARE people that stupid....I've had the "luck" of working with some of them. There are also people with Alzheimer's Disease. And people with bad memories. And what about the ones who would do it deliberately? And sometimes, Brain Farts happen!

Well, a long winded post for sure! I hope it sheds some light on the topic!

 

[whitedogone]

Thanks for reinforcing the importance of my job as an Electrical Inspector. People DO get killed because of setups just like many here think that are "just fine". In most localities in the U.S what you are planning to do is extremely illegal and dangerous. Simply because it's even possible for an idiot homeowner to forget to kill the incoming Main breaker. In this case, you would be also "back-feeding" power onto the electrical grid and could conceivably electrocute a power company lineman who believes that the power has been cut.

The only safe, legal, way to provide power to your home breaker panel from a generator is to use an approved transfer switch, professionally installed, which makes it impossible to have power from the generator feed back into the power grid.

In some areas the penalties for back-feeding power are so draconian that you could easily lose your home. Don't do this, EVER!

 

[Willl]

since I am off the grid.

If your totally 'off grid', I don't understand your post involving this thread ?

 

[whitedogone]

"....I had a licensed electrician who has been in business for over 30 years hook up my Generator connection and there is no transfer switch or kit."

I fail installations nearly every week done by guys with "years" in the bussiness.

 

[brin]

OK - OK guys...& thanks Mace Canute for your info and all the rest of you as well. I have the electrician coming back out and will share all of this information with him this coming Tuesday and will let you all know what the resolution is.. I have lived long enough to know that there is a lot I don't know but I am a good listener..Thanks you all for your opinions and help and it has not fallen on deaf ears.

Update: Remember guys in my earlier posts I referred to two panel boxes on the back of my house ? one was sealed and only accessible to electric co. and the other is where I had my switches..Well, I should have looked a little more carefully but keep in mind I only replace light bulbs as far as my electric ability so cut me some slack here..LOL..anyway check the link below that is similar to the other panel I have outside my house. also remember when I built this house a few years ago I had the electrician set it up for a back up generator - comments always welcome.

Here is the link> http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/images.php?products_id=1125