Geotextile fabric or Railroad ballast?

[RadarTech]

hey guys,
Got some questions about this stuff...

We live in the mountains of Western NC.
Our driveway is challenging to say the least..
In a couple of weeks, we are getting it rebuilt and shortened to a new route.

So I thought we would add geo to the base and not use railroad ballast this time.
Cost is about $430 for a 430 foot 12.5 foot wide roll.
Shipping inclusive.
A single load of ballast is ~$430 for 18 tons delivered.. and I figure about 10 feet wide with 120-140 feet.

The road will be freshly moved dirt and graded down below the current level in another couple of spots. (4 feet removed by 10 feet wide by 100 feet long- to build up the new area)

Will geotextile make this a better road bed?
Money wise it looks much cheaper if I believe the hype.

BUT yall have never steered me wrong...


thoughts? opinions?

and yes I did open a can of worms knowingly!


RT

 

[dmccarty]

I have fabric on our drive which is about 600ish feet long. Then there is a loop that is maybe another 100 feet. Out back we have a graveled area that is roughly 100 feet long by 36 feet. Give or take.

Fabric under all of it.

Our road is not fabric just gravel. The road looks like Fido's Butt with all the rain and snow which has cause pot holes all over the place. The road looks like a dirt road not a gravel road.

Driveway is in pretty good shape except for a couple of spots which is my fault not the fabric.

When I built the driveway I only put down 3-4 inches of ABC instead of 6-9 inches. Figured I would lay down the final layer after the house was built. The driveway held up so well I have not put down that extra depth.

Which we need in a few places. 99% of the drivway is just fine. But there is a steep down hill section where water gets on the driveway. If we had another 1-2 inches of gravel along 150ish feet of driveway, the water would not get on the driveway. The water on the driveway has cause two pot holes to form.

Our driveway is in great shape except for those two pot holes. But that is my fault.

I see only two problems with fabric. It can be a PITA to put down in a wind but you just have to use rocks, bricks, wood, whatever is at hand to hold the fabric in place. With fabric you have to be very careful when using the FEL, blade or box blade when moving the gravel. If you catch the fabric you can pull it right up. NOT fun to put back down if you pull the fabric up through the gravel.

Flip side is that you do not have to groom the gravel very often. I have done it once in 8 or so years. And I only had to touch up the down hill section where water was getting on the driveway. If I had put down enough ABC to keep the water off the road I would not have had to touch up the gravel.

I used a mesh type of fabric which I think was from Amaco. It was about a $1 per linear foot and 12.5 feet wide. There is also a woven fabric. My supplier had both but I used mesh but I do not remember why. :laughing:

The fabric sure saved a bunch of money over gravel. And no problems after years of use. Neighbors driveways look pretty pathetic and they do not have the slope like we do.

I would roll out the fabric and then let the truck back up onto the fabric to dump. Then I would spread with the tractor while he went to get another load which might take 30-45 minutes. By the time he returned I would have the gravel smoothed on the fabric. He would dump on the next empty spot and we would repeat until done.

Getting the surface as clean and smooth as possible really helps. But it that is impossible on my place. Constantly finding roots and rocks which make the fabric stick up which in turn makes it easy for the blade or FEL to catch the fabric. Not a big deal just a pain.

The mistake I made was trying to smooth out the grade too much with the box blade. One it was impossible to do. Two, by the time I figured out it was impossible I had dug a slight trench for the driveway to sit in. Basically a big wide ditch. I figure out pretty quick that smoothing out was not working but I still had an 1-2 inch "trench".

This is part of the reason for my water problem since some of the gravel driveway is at grade level. Without the fabric I would have to box blade every year or so.

The water is not that big of a deal. We talk every year about dumping more gravel. But we spend the money on other things. So the water on the driveway is not that big of a deal. Mainly because of the fabric.

Later,
Dan

 

[RadarTech]

The fabric sure saved a bunch of money over gravel. And no problems after years of use. Neighbors driveways look pretty pathetic and they do not have the slope like we do.


The water is not that big of a deal. We talk every year about dumping more gravel. But we spend the money on other things. So the water on the driveway is not that big of a deal. Mainly because of the fabric.

Later,
Dan

This is what I want to hear!
Ok.. I am going to call my grader and order the geo today!

 

[Keuka]

Geotextile is a great product and well worth considering. However, like anything it has limitations. On the other hand so does ballast.

Geotextile lets water pass through and filters out fine material such as clay, silt and mud. It prevents these undesirable materials from pumping or working their way up through your road base material from below. I once used it to construct a roadway through a peat bog. It did the job and made a believer out of me.

Your roadway subbase material is the key to how well the system works. By roadway subbase, I'm referring to the the material your going to put on top of the fabric. This material should be free draining and contain less than 10 percent silt or clay. The trick is to use a material that will not turn to mud when wet. Gravel or crushed stone works the best but some other soils will work too. The material should bind or lock together when compacted but not be so dirty that it gets muddy when wet.
Here's a tip: Take a small handfull of the material you're going to use as your subbase or roadbase. Wet it down and roll it back and forth between the palms of your hands like your trying to form a tootsie roll. If the material clings together and forms a muddy clay type roll, it's not a good choice. However, if the material remains loose or clings lightly together but breaks up easily, your good to go.

Another requirement is the thickness of your subbase layer. I believe most geotextiles require a minimum of 12 inches of subbase material. I've used 8 inches on driveways with good results. A subbase layer thinner than this, may tend to slide on the geotextile.

I've used geotextile alot over the years and it is very cost effective when used correctly. Before geotextile, we used cobbles or ballast but the cost was big bucks. Today we use geotextile even under ballast or Rip Rap as a cheap insurance.

I'd get on-line and read about or study the type of geotextile your considering using. It is only as good as the quality of placement but it can do great things. It also has a down-side to consider. If you have to remove or dig through it at a later date, it's a *****.

Hope this helps.

 

[SARG]

And be aware it comes in woven and unwoven configuration. Do some research for your application.

I paid about $300 for a 12.5' roll at a local farm store.

I believe it is well worth the investment.

 

[Egon]

Will geotextile make this a better road bed? UOTE]

What is the geotextile going to be placed on?

Soil conditions?

 

[showcattle]

I placed geotextile around a spring development for my cattle. Covered it with ~6" of 3/4 to dust limestone. It's been down for 5+ years, and there's still no mud around the spring. I think it's great stuff. Wish I would have used it ten years ago under my driveway. I have to add stone to it every couple years because it gets muddy.

 

[JB4310]

Will geotextile make this a better road bed? UOTE]

What is the geotextile going to be placed on?

Soil conditions?

That's the question, most people/ drivesways/ roads will never need a geotextile.
But for the ones who do need it, it's a life saver/money saver.

This company has many different types, I use the foundation drain sheets in my basement drainage work. Theyr'e not big on the regular soil stabilizer fabrics but they have many types drainage products like for the edge of drive or road

Prefabricated Drainage Systems - Roof Drainage Products, Yard Drainage Solutions | American Wick Drain

JB.

 

[PILOON]

I know that I posted this B4 but;
If you can obtain some used carpeting from, say a hotel remodeling project or similar situation it also makes good substitute (and free) for geotextile.
Most modern carpeting is made from synthetics that have same composition as geotextile.
I know of some folks that have done this with good success.

 

[dave1949]

The road will be freshly moved dirt and graded down below the current level in another couple of spots. (4 feet removed by 10 feet wide by 100 feet long- to build up the new area)

RT

I would make your overall grading wider by at least three-four feet on each side of the drive. I'm not sure I am picturing what you mean by "4' removed by 10' wide". But, it sounds like a narrow slot. You need free space for water drainage down and off the drive and a place for it to run for good results. And then there's room needed for snow plowing too maybe.
Dave.

 

[RadarTech]

I would make your overall grading wider by at least three-four feet on each side of the drive. I'm not sure I am picturing what you mean by "4' removed by 10' wide". But, it sounds like a narrow slot. You need free space for water drainage down and off the drive and a place for it to run for good results. And then there's room needed for snow plowing too maybe.
Dave.

The part of the driveway that I mean by the 4x10 part is that section is 10 feet wide, and the grader will be pulling out 4 feet of dirt 10 feet wide..

It can only be 10 feet wide because it was dug out of a bank to start with.
The high side of that bank is 15 feet higher than the road, and the drop off is 15 feet lower than the drive..
So it is little more than a road carved out of the side of a mountain.

 

[dave1949]

The part of the driveway that I mean by the 4x10 part is that section is 10 feet wide, and the grader will be pulling out 4 feet of dirt 10 feet wide..

It can only be 10 feet wide because it was dug out of a bank to start with.
The high side of that bank is 15 feet higher than the road, and the drop off is 15 feet lower than the drive..
So it is little more than a road carved out of the side of a mountain.

I see, thanks. No experience with that sort of terrain. 10' is not much if you are concerned about getting 8 to 8 1/2 feet wide delivery, fire, etc trucks in.

But, I am guessing yours won't be the only one in your area, they are probably used to it
Dave.

 

[JB4310]

The part of the driveway that I mean by the 4x10 part is that section is 10 feet wide, and the grader will be pulling out 4 feet of dirt 10 feet wide..

It can only be 10 feet wide because it was dug out of a bank to start with.
The high side of that bank is 15 feet higher than the road, and the drop off is 15 feet lower than the drive..
So it is little more than a road carved out of the side of a mountain.

Sounds like good drainage on the sides is gonna pay off more than geo underneath?

Geo under is most helpful for poor soil conditions in low slope areas, and IMO will not make up for poor storm water run off management.

If done right there should be no water under that drive, with such grade to work with, geo textile shouldn't be needed. JMO.

JB.

 

[Jstpssng]

I wish I had put it in mine before I started graveling. Instead I just keep buying gravel every few years. We use it on woods roads alot when going through wet areas. You don't want to go off the road, or you'll sink out of sight.

 

[dmccarty]

I wish I had put it in mine before I started graveling. Instead I just keep buying gravel every few years. We use it on woods roads alot when going through wet areas. You don't want to go off the road, or you'll sink out of sight.

The private road we live on is just barely graveled. It was graveled by the developer 30 years ago and no gravel has been added since then. Right now with all of the wet weather the road is in bad shape. Pots holes and the gravel is nowhere to be seen....

But the gravel is still there. I just have to put the teeth down on the box blade, rip the heck out of the road, pull the teeth back up, and smooth it all back out. The gravel reappears. I have done this a couple of times over the last 10 years. We do need more gravel on the road but nobody wants to pay for it. If we added a 3-4 inches over 300-400 feet we could get the water to flow off the gravel.

Can you just rip the road with a box blade and smooth it back out?

Later,
Dan

 

[RadarTech]

I see, thanks. No experience with that sort of terrain. 10' is not much if you are concerned about getting 8 to 8 1/2 feet wide delivery, fire, etc trucks in.

But, I am guessing yours won't be the only one in your area, they are probably used to it
Dave.

Yep...
My wifes cousin is the deputy fire chief and his land is next to ours.. And so many roads are narrow here...

 

[RadarTech]

Sounds like good drainage on the sides is gonna pay off more than geo underneath?

Geo under is most helpful for poor soil conditions in low slope areas, and IMO will not make up for poor storm water run off management.

If done right there should be no water under that drive, with such grade to work with, geo textile shouldn't be needed. JMO.

JB.

Yes and no..
The winter is when it really gets bad..
The snow stays for a period of time and melts off the upper banks.
Then it all saturates, and pumps up.

In one place I dug down 3 feet and found all kinds of gravel..
Another dug 3 with the tractor and then as far down as possible with a post hole digger and never found gravel. A relative told me that on the lower driveway the are spots where it took several dump truck loads to stabilize 20 foot sections.
Some of the banks keep falling down and filling the culverts.
It has flowed over and washed out edges...

If I can get a base, then maybe I can stop the pumping...

 

[RadarTech]

Can you just rip the road with a box blade and smooth it back out?

Later,
Dan

I tried that, but there is 8 inches of mud the base just sunk in...

 

[rdoiron]

We had a 1200 foot driveway built last summer with the first 600 feet going through a swampy section over a wet clay base. The builder used a 12 foot wide membrane with 4-6 inch crushed rock 2-3 feet deep followed by 6 inches of 3/4 gravel. Total of over 100 22 ton loads.

The road has not moved an inch, no potholes or any detectable depressions. That is with a full summer of construction traffic including concrete mixers.

Membranes are highly recommended if crossing unstable ground.

 

[Mounted Madness]

Our soil here is heavy wet clay.

Acts like glue, dries to rock, and eats gravel year 'round.

Around here, geo cloth is sop in all applications where gravel base is used on new roads.

Clay seems to have an insatiable appetite for any gravel on top of it.

If you have major wet/dry conditions, soft or clay soil, use the geo cloth.

At least you'll still see your gravel 10 years from now, since it'll still be on top of the geo cloth. :thumbsup: