geothermal questions and possible DIY

[MacLawn]

LD, at least you have several contractors to work with. You doing trenching, right? You mean those wide, deep trenches for laying the pipes in? I'm wanting geothermal too. I had my current unit put in 2003, $5,900, just the outside and inside two stage carrier heat pump, and have already had trouble with it. My bill total electric house, 1500 sq ft, averages about $130 per month here on I-20, 100 miles east of old RM in Covington, same red GA clay. We have one man here who was doing geo when all the other companies didn't even know what it was back in '03 when I had this unit installed. I just couldn't find him then, he was just getting started. Now, all of them have jumped on the geo installation bandwagon.

Like everything for me, my main concern is reliability! I just like stuff to work. Saving lucres is good too. Keep us posted LB. (OP that is)

 

[MacLawn]

See? Between my first and last sentence above, I done forgot ye name! Me haid, me haid, it ain't right.

 

[LD1]

Those numbers you are throwing around are in the ballpark for what I paid and was quoted. I think the regular heat pump we were quoted was a little higher than you listed. Keep in mind the tax saving with a geothermal unit.

Trying not to talk about the tax savings when discussing the numbers. Trying to keep it apples to apples. I may be way off base, but IMO, HVAC contractors are taking advantage of that tax savings by charging more, and end result is no savings to me at all. I dont see what would make geo cost that much more to install.

An air to air unit is 5500 installed. Judging from what I see that "I" can buy, it looks like ~3500-4000 in material. That means they are charging ~$1500 for the labor to install and charge the system with freon.

A climatemaster geo unit (4-ton 2-stage) w/ install kit that includes ALL material needed except ductwork, would cost me $8500-$9000. So that makes installing one of these units cost $6k in labor. I just dont buy it. There is only 1 unit to deal with as opposed to two, and no freon as geo units come already charged. All that needs done is tying in the water loops.

Again, I feel contractors are taking advantage of the tax savings by charging more, and justifying the higher cost to potential customers by touting how much of a rebate we will receive.

If you are doing the excavation yourself, the add'l costs are installing the piping, flow module, plus the heat pump. $10 K for those is steep. I would estimate about a $5K adder.

paul

If material and labor would only add 5k to the cost, I wouldnt be having this converstation or debating between geo and air to air. The unit and material are about 4k-4500 more right off the bat. so another $500 additional labor sounds right to me. But certainly no another 5k in labor alone to install geo.

You doing trenching, right? You mean those wide, deep trenches for laying the pipes in?

Yes, I am doing the trenching. Slinky loops. For 4-ton, thats 4 trenches, 3' wide and 150' long and 5' deep.

The guy I spoke to last week subs that out (as most do) and he charges $900/ton. So thats a nice payday for an excavation company to dig 600' of trench 5' deep with a 3' bucket and make $3600. Thats about $11/yd of dirt moved. And most general excavation companies I have talked to in my area are more like $1-$2/yd:laughing:

 

[LD1]

Now, new post.

Just spoke to another contractor today. While I didnt get any numbers from him yet, he led me to believe they will be about the same as the previous guy. ~$8500 for an air to air, and upper teens for geo with me doing the digging.

I questioned him about what I just mentioned, and why the labor was SOOO much more than for an air to air when there really isnt any more work to do....just different work.

He couldnt give me a straight answer. Kept talking about how much more the unit costs, and tying into the water heater etc etc. I called him on it and said I can buy a 4-ton climatemaster 2-stage unit (same unit they sell) with ALL materials required for ~$9k. So I asked him where the $6k labor to install comes from. Cause unless you are selling the air-air unit for $100 or less, you are charging WAY more in labor to install geo.....materials aside.

I got some lame answer about cost of doing business, and for every dollar out they need X dollars in for overhead and keeping the lights on BS.

So even though labor may be similar in time and difficulty, just because the unit itself cost more, you can charge alot more in labor to install it??

Again, I maybe off base and missing something, But I just think they are taking advantage of the credit themselves by charging more, cause they know you will be getting 3 or 4 grand back as a rebate.

At this point, since geo's are pre-charged and dont require refrigerant equipment, I may very well be doing the install myself and just hiring someone to do the duct work. But who knows, I may do that myself too.

 

[MacLawn]

LD, you made some great points about labor. I'll bet ye had the old boy sweating. He's probably not used to working with someone who's knowledgeable. Thanks for answering about the trenches. That's just what I thought. The rascals are charging way too much to dig those trenches! What about that boring method? Not well, but kind of drilling and installing pipe that way? Ye checked into that?

 

[LD1]

No I havent checked into the horizontal boring. But I am quite certain that it would cost me more to have done than myself spending some seat time on the backhoe and digging myself.

I have a big ole hoe with 3' bucket. At 5' depth I imagine I can dig ~100ft per hour, so about 6 hrs of work.

I know when running field tile @ 3' depth I can dig, lay, and backfill ~100' /hr

 

[jix]

If you are doing the excavation yourself, the add'l costs are installing the piping, flow module, plus the heat pump. $10 K for those is steep. I would estimate about a $5K adder.

paul

Too steep by 150%. I suspect a double markup. Some contractors are not geo0 w-w Heatpump dealers, so they pay retail for the heatpump and then slap on another retail on top off that, Just the 4- ton w-w geo heat pump should be under $6000 retail, plus the ductwork, plus the ground loop. plus the groundloop pump. Geo heat pumps is a dodgy market...for contractors.. I would sub contract that part of your project, myself Some general contractors practice crooked bookkeeping to the client, dog - eat dog. IYKWIM. You should select your own GEO HP supplier..and his labor component, not fold it into a general contractors bill, plus his mark up. There are two really good reason (at least) for that. One is asset accountability..snd the other is cost control..and of course warranty issues at some later date. Since you plan to do the earthwork yourself for the ground loop, you do not need a general contractor warranty anyway. You are nearly always better off to be your own general contractor if you have the liquidity at the bank. Perfectly honest General contractors do exist,............ somewhere.

 

[jix]

Too steep by 150%. I suspect a double markup. Some contractors are not geo0 w-w Heatpump dealers, so they pay retail for the heatpump and then slap on another retail on top off that, Just the 4- ton w-w geo heat pump should be under $6000 retail, plus the ductwork, plus the ground loop. plus the groundloop pump. Geo heat pumps is a dodgy market...for contractors.. I would sub contract that part of your project, myself Some general contractors practice crooked bookkeeping to the client, dog - eat dog. IYKWIM. You should select your own GEO HP supplier..and his labor component, not fold it into a general contractors bill, plus his mark up. There are two really good reason (at least) for that. One is asset accountability..snd the other is cost control..and of course warranty issues at some later date. Since you plan to do the earthwork yourself for the ground loop, you do not need a general contractor warranty anyway. You are nearly always better off to be your own general contractor if you have the liquidity at the bank. Perfectly honest General contractors do exist,............ somewhere.

Oh, and by the way..I suggest that you double the length of your slinky tubing and your earth trench, if you have rhe space avaiable, because the soil is gonna get too cold..(or warmed) for good energy efficiency, especially if it is only 5 feet down, in dry sandy ground. How deep is the sub-surface water table, did you say?...hmmmm

 

[jix]

McLawn said he had trouble with his Carrier unit...He has a LOT of company. Carrier units run very hot cylinder heads temps in their A-A units..and the oil gets too thin, so the compressors poops itself after about three years. Nope, not a Carrier, thanks, same for Trane. Unless you live way south. The colder the atmosphere, the harder must work the A-A heat pump in the winter. Northern lattitudes are not A-A heat pump country. Save you money..go geo or stay home...Igloos are good, way up north...Igloo and a hot woman cheaper that a geo heat pump, too, depending.

 

[dodge man]

If this helps, I'll give you a vague estimate of how many hours I think it took them to install mine. This includes the directional boring for the ground loops and the geo furnace install. It also includes a hot water storage tank and an electric water heater. Total cost for me was $20,000. I would estimate it took about 80 and 120 hours of labor. At $50 an hour that would be $4000 to $6000 in labor, and my guess is they charge more than that. For the directional boring guys they also have quite a bit of equipment to pay for. There was also some wiring involved and plumbing. My house didn't need any new ducts but they had to build a new plenum and tie into all the old ducts.

It took the directional boring guys 1 day, but there was five of them. The furnace installers took about 3 days and there was two of them.