Gooseneck Trailer Question

[WoodDawg]

I currently have a 16' equipment trailer that I plan on replacing in the near future with a 25' Gooseneck. The trailer I am looking at comes standard with (2) 7000' axles. The builder offered to add a third axle for $400. I really don't think I need the capacity, but would it make it easier to balance a load on it? Also, do the costs out weigh the benefits (extra tires to wear, less mileage, etc)? Any thoughts?

Mark

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Sounds like overkill and extra tolls to me. Unless maybe you are going to be hauling bulldozers? I have a feeling that my truck would be overloaded long before my trailer needed an extra axle and I have an F350 Dually PSD.


I have also heard people also say that the tri-axles don't turn as smooth in tight manuevers due to the extra axle.

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

The first thing you need to decide is if you need 21,000 lbs. of axles or if 14,000 will do. If you need more then you can consider another 7,000 lb. axle or going with two 10,000 lb. or even 12,000 lb. axles.

The more axles you have (or the further apart they are), the more tire scuffing you'll experience when turning. Backing a tri-axle equipment trailer around in anything even resembling tight quarters is a real challenge. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[Chipperman]

WoodDawg
I own a 25 foot gooseneck with two 7000# axles. I love it. Be careful unless you have a class A comericial license you should not consider the three axles. I believe it is a Federal law that any combination of vehicles (truck & trailer) over 26000# you need the class A CDL. And yes the two axle trailer is easyer to turn around. Hope that helps
Chipperman

 

[cowboydoc]

I would get either the third axle or bigger axles. If I haul my 4020 tractor I would be overweight with a 14k trailer. You have to take off your trailer weight from that 14k as well. Most trailers are in the 2-4k weight range so you really are only going to have 10-12k of towing capacity. The CDL part only comes into play if you are hauling commercially. If you are only hauling for yourself you don't have to worry about it. You have to stop at the scales in some states but you don't need the cdl.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

I think we are all missing the point. What is he hauling and what will he haul with?

Unless he has something bigger than a 1 ton pickup the trailer is a non-issue. If he's hauling more than 14k he is going to be overweight with ANY 1 ton pickup. Sure the manufactures sometime say you can tow more but you have to pull all the seats out an run with an almost empty full tank to stay under the gross weight of around 20-21K for truck and trailer even if it doesn't have the heavier diesel motor. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif. Also with the gooseneck the GVW rating might be exceeded from the tongue weight not to mention rear truck axles and tires.

Some will argue that the vehicle ratings are not important and you can haul more. Well maybe, but than why worry about what the trailer is rated for??

Just seem like adding the 3rd axle is a waste unless we are moving up in vehicle type as well.

Not trying to be a pain just think we need to work this equation in reverse, vehicle, what your towing and then the right trailer setup.

 

[cowboydoc]

Towing is a non-issue. All the mfg. recommendation has to do with is what you can tow and be within your warranty. For my pickup I can haul up to 30k and be completely legal. It all depends on what license you buy. That's what you are limited by not what your pickup is. Haven't you ever seen the dodges, fords, etc. hauling car trailers, cattle trailers, etc. commercially? It's the same one ton dually. The difference is they have a license plate that says they can legally haul that much weight. The mfg. rec. is mostly just for warranty. Also just look at most any rv. They are almost all way more than 20k gcvw.

Haven't ever had a chevy but the dodges and Fords will easily pull 25k plus loads with no problems at all. We have trucks with 400k plus that their whole life has been hauling these kind of loads and no problems at all. Never had a broken axle, frame, springs or anything.

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

Lawman,

I just want to make two comments here. First, I probably should have commented as you did about the kind of truck required to tow a 20,000 lb. GVW trailer. With everything around from an S-10 to a Peterbilt to use I sometimes forget to consider such things. You make an excellent point.

Second, I'd like to respectfully disagree with the following;

<font color="blue"> we need to work this equation in reverse, vehicle, what your towing and then the right trailer setup</font>

As a truck dealer, I have people coming in all the time looking for a truck because they're going to need something to tow a trailer (horse, equipment, RV, whatever) they intend to buy. As much as it seems to be against my best interests, I tell them to go and buy their trailer first and THEN shop for a truck. I don't know what truck will fit their needs until their needs are established and that doesn't happen until the trailer is picked out.

As to the order for a general use trailer or equipment trailer, I think the order should start with the load/equipment you intend to haul. I think with most people that's what starts this whole process. They either have or want or intend to get something they're going to need to trailer. That's the first decision they either make or have made for them. In either case, that will determine what they need in a trailer both in terms of physical size and weight carrying capacity. Only when those two are in place are you ready to get the truck with which to pull it.

If you start with the load, each subsequent decision in terms of capacity is pretty much a matter of doing the math. If you start with the truck it's like that old football adage about passing--three things can happen and two of them are bad. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif You could get just what you need, of course. More likely, however is that you either end up with a truck that's not able to do the job or is dramatic overkill. With a truck not able to do what you really need you can end up limiting your choices on the other end based on the truck you bought. With the oversized, overpowered truck you end up spending way more on the truck and fuel for it than you need to. I just never want to be the guy who sold that truck in either case so I tell customers to get the other part done first. It makes my job easier and keeps them happier in the long run. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[cowboydoc]

Yea you are right Gary. Of course I'm talking about 350 1 ton duallys too. So he might have a 1/2 ton pickup.

Also you may need to haul 20 roundbales say. That isn't something you would need to do fast or even on the road necessarily.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

They don't turn good, get heavier axels and stay away from tri's if possible. I have heard of some people cracking hubs on their tri's when backing up and turning sharply with a extremly heavy load. If you need the extra capacity, which is a nice thing to have even if you don't need it now you always might need it in the future, get the bigger axels. Later.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

<font color="blue"> we need to work this equation in reverse, vehicle, what your towing and then the right trailer setup
</font>

As a truck dealer, I have people coming in all the time looking for a truck because they're going to need something to tow a trailer (horse, equipment, RV, whatever) they intend to buy. As much as it seems to be against my best interests, I tell them to go and buy their trailer first and THEN shop for a truck. I don't know what truck will fit their needs until their needs are established and that doesn't happen until the trailer is picked out.

I can understand that reasoning. It would be great to pick out the toys and then the truck. In this case however the horse is out of the barn, so to speak. We can assume that he already has the toy (tractor) and some sort of vehicle. You have to look at what he's got and then choose the suitable trailer. No need to waste $$$ on a 3rd axle if he can't legally or safely haul it.

COWBOYDOC

Towing is a non-issue. All the mfg. recommendation has to do with is what you can tow and be within your warranty. For my pickup I can haul up to 30k and be completely legal. It all depends on what license you buy. That's what you are limited by not what your pickup is. Haven't you ever seen the dodges, fords, etc. hauling car trailers, cattle trailers, etc. commercially? It's the same one ton dually. The difference is they have a license plate that says they can legally haul that much weight. The mfg. rec. is mostly just for warranty. Also just look at most any rv. They are almost all way more than 20k gcvw.

Haven't ever had a chevy but the dodges and Fords will easily pull 25k plus loads with no problems at all. We have trucks with 400k plus that their whole life has been hauling these kind of loads and no problems at all. Never had a broken axle, frame, springs or anything.

Yeah I see guys with the same truck as me with 40' flatbeds with 3 full size vans or 2 -30'+ boats angled towards they sky. The pull am' as fast as they want. The brakes on the truck really aren't meant to stop that load and the added E-brakes only help to a point. In the event of a problem the 25k+ load is gonna be a bear to stop or emergency manuever with an 8k- 1 ton pickup.

I am not ones of those strictly by the book towing guys but you're taking it to the extreme. Sure I know SOME staes will let you buy just about any weight rating you want when you regitser. SOME require an certification from an engineer and others won't let you do it. I have a PSD dually and I am very aware that I could pull WAY more than the rating.

If your hauling 20-30k tarilers w/ your 1 ton great. That isn't the ideal setup for the job and if $$ were no issue I doubt many of these haulers would chhose 1 ton trucks. It is a case of the least expensive tool to get the job done. That's amarginal setup at best.

Don't get me wrong I LOVE my truck and I have pulled stuck dumptrucks and mighty oaks with it /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif but it aint a medium or heavy duty rig.

Also just look at most any rv. They are almost all way more than 20k gcvw.

Maybe the one w/ slides but that is a stretching it a bit. Dually weighs about 8k not every RV is over 12K. Saying everybody does it also isn't a great answer.

We have trucks with 400k plus that their whole life has been hauling these kind of loads and no problems at all.

Let me guess you're on the original transmission and haven't had umpteen brake jobs as well? Come on now tell the truth.... Do you think there would be less wear on a truck designed for such loads? Brakes, trans., etc.? Why do you think that is?

Yeah the motors are great PSD, Cummins,Duramax take your pick they will all go the distance with huge loads. I think that fools many people into thinking they are JUST as capable as a medium duty trucks many with air brakes, real truck tires and rims, etc.

It just isn't the case. I have spent time on many of the diesel truck forums and tons of guys haul forever but you also see the other stories and pictures. One comes to mind- guys making a fast turn with a Dodge Cummins and the 3 car carrier just ripping the frame and bed sideways. That wouldn't happen with a commercial type truck.

Now farmers haul huge ammounts all the time but they usually are going short distances at low speeds. If I were going to haul as much as your talking about with my family at highway speeds as much as I love my truck, I'd upgrade.

P.S. I recently pushed a 1978 Z-28 w/ big-blockthat weighs 4k by using my 17hp Murray lawn tractor so I would like to call Murray and tell them waht their vehicle is capable of. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Just trying to make a point just because you can make it move doesn't make it safe.

Not here to argue. I am sure your rigs are setup with e-brakes, exhausts, chips, etc. and your drivers are probably WAY better than the average Joe, just don't think it's a good idea for the average person to haul 20-30k with a 1 ton.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

To reiterate a previous warning - be careful about weight and CDL.

Commercial licence requirements are dictated by the Federal Government, but enforced by individual states.

The statement "if you're towing for yourself" is very misleading. If you use this equipment in connection with ANY activities intended to produce income (NOT profit) you will need a CDL if required by weight.

For example:
If you race, even in amatuer competition, when you win you usually receive some sort of compensation - either cash or good. This is income. As a result in many states race car haulers are regularly stopped, inspected, and cited for lack of correct CDL, lack of correct permitting and placarding for haz-mat (racing fuel), and lack of correct vehicle identification (DOT number, GCW, etc).
If you operate even a small farm, and ANY of your product is not for personal use, wether you receive cash or barter for it you are producing income.
From the standpoint of the State Police pretty much the only vehicle exempt are RV's and emergency vehicles (and there is legislation afoot in many states to remove the exemptions for emergency vehicles)

As far as what weights require CDL:

A single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 lbs or higher
A combination vehicle with a GCWR of 26,001 lbs or higher
A combination vehicle with a trailer WR of 10,001 lbs or higher.

Keep in mind these are based on weight RATING, not actual weight.

So an F350 with a 12,000 lb tag trailer REQUIRES a CDL, even when empty.


Gregg

 

[LSmith]

I have a F350 PSD Dually. I will have to say that I haven't found any thing it won't pull. I run mostly tag trailers but the occasional gooseneck. Having said that I will also say that just cause you can pull it and get the load up to speed that dosen't mean you can stop it or even control it in a emergency situation. I would be lying if I said that I had never put myself in a situation where I was trying to stop a load in a panic and was alternating between prayers and un-controllable bowel movements /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif. Know what your existing rig can safely haul and add a trailer with that capacity and stay alert to your conditions. If your new to hauling heavy loads ( I figure that 16 footer has already had some load on it? ) take the loaded trailer out in the country or in a big empty parking lot and pratice a few lower speed panic stops. They will be a real eye opener I promise.

Just my $.02

Lane Smith

 

[Bird]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Maybe the one w/ slides but that is a stretching it a bit. Dually weighs about 8k not every RV is over 12K. Saying everybody does it also isn't a great answer. )</font>

May not be a great answer, but I'm afraid it's an accurate one anyway. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif My youngest brother called this morning and told he just swapped his Suburban and 34' conventional travel trailer for a Ford crewcab diesel dually and a 38' fifth wheel (both 1995 models). The trailer has a GVWR of 22k on triple axles. He thinks he'll only be running a GCVW of about 25k though, but knowing him, I'm bettin' it'll be closer to 30k. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[cowboydoc]

It's up to the individual states not the federal govt. EACH state sets its own requirements for weight and having to stop. As far as farmers no you don't need a cdl if you are licensed for farm use. Yes it is most certainly confusing. I can haul my tractor, my cattle, my horses, etc. from here to Idaho without needing a cdl. I'm not hauling commercially I'm hauling for myself. Now if I was hauling to Oscar Meyer or IBP that's a different story. The individual states make the requirements. It's wise to talk to your state because the federal law and state law are completely different in most cases.

With regard to a CDL it's a piece of cake. It's certainly not something to be afraid of doing. Nothing more complicated than your regular license. You just have to know a few more rules. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[WoodDawg]

Thanks to all, you have confirmed what I was thinking. I am going to stick with the 2 axles, I don't think I will ever need more than 14k. I will spend that money on a toolbox or a few extra feet of trailer. For those that were wondering, I have a Chevy Silverado 3500HD with a Duramax Diesel.
Thanks again,
Mark

 

[RedDog]

WoodDawg,

I'm thinking of selling my 34' Gooseneck trailer,,,, think your Chevy could pull it??? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

RedDog Supercharged 454 Chevy Dually

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Not to be contrary...

But

Laws reagrding commercial transport and licencing were consolidated under Federal jurisdiction about 10-15 years ago. This was done primarilly to make the regulations more uniform, and to eliminate the issue of problem drivers having multiple CDL's in different states. The changes have been only moderatly successful on both counts.

Enforcement is done at the state level, and states may enforce slightly different regulations in regards to who/what they exempt. Because of these two factors CDL application still varies widely from state to state.

The information I posted above will keep you out of trouble in all states at all times, these are the basic rules for CDL in all states. While it is entirely possible that you may or may not need a CDL in you area, the best thing you can do is spend the time to find out what the specifics are where you are working. In PA, you would be required to be CDL licenced running the rigs you are talking about because PA exempts almost nothing from compliance.

A great deal of money is being made by both the state and local governments by enforcing these regulations. Believe me, having your rig impounded until you can produce a CDL licenced driver to move it is no joke, either in terms of expense or inconvenience.

Personally I have a CDL just to avoid any problems. I took the time to get trained and have a class A with a tank and multiple trailer endorsement, soI can run just about anything if needed.

Best advice - leanr and know what the laws and practices are where you live and work.


Gregg

 

[LMTC]

Here is a definitive site:
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/enforce/cvm/CMV_license.html
Class A -- Required for a combination vehicle with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 pounds or more and towing a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of more than 10,000 pounds.

Class B -- Required for a single unit vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,001 pounds or more, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 lbs. GVWR.

Class C -- Any vehicle, regardless of weight rating, transporting hazardous material in any amount requiring the display of placards by 49 CFR, part 172, subpart F, or designed to transport 16 passengers or more, including the driver.

This is a confusing issue...so confusing that when I called 5 Highway Patrol Posts earlier this year, I got 4 different answers. Bottom line...you could be cited by LEO who doesn't understand the CDL requirements any better than most of us. The most common misunderstanding seems to be that ANY trailer with a GVWR of 10,001# or more necessitates a CDL for the towing vehicle's driver. Not so. Read carefully....A. any COMBINATION of truck/trailer with a combination GCWR of 26,001 or more AND towing a trailer with a GVWR of more than 10,000. So if your truck is GVWR of 20,000, and your trailer 7,000 your combination is over 26,000, BUT your trailer is not more than 10,000...so no CDL is necessary. Nor is a CDL necessary if your truck GVWR is 10,000 and your trailer's is 14,000...because your combination is NOT OVER 26,000. Now if your truck is 12,500 GVWR and your trailer is 14,000 GVWR...you need a CDL.
B. Any single unit vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,001 pounds or more, or ANY SUCH VEHICLE towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 lbs. GVWR.....(meaning if your single unit vehicle has a GVWR UNDER 26,000, you are not subject to condition B)
C. Seems much more clear and has little application in this forum.

In Ohio, the GVWR is taxed and listed on the truck plate (for commercial plates). Commercial trailers, regardless of size or GVWR, are all taxed and licensed the same. This is interesting, because your licensed GVWR could be 35,998 (truck 25,999, trailer 9,999) and you MIGHT not need a CDL...but the LEO could not tell because the vehicle/trailer GVWRs are not separated. We have a Ford SuperDuty 250 licensed at 24,000 (no, we have never pulled that much with a 250, but I'd rather pay the tax than the fine for being overweight). We pull a 7,000 tagalong and a 14,000 gooseneck...both have the same kind of license plate, no weight on the registration.

Best bet...keep a copy of the requirements with you, be pleasant, and be prepared to possibly be cited in error.
Tie 'em down good and haul safe.

 

[cowboydoc]

Laws reagrding commercial transport and licencing

THIS is the key. If you are hauling commercially! You can haul your own equipment all you want if you are not hauling it to do work for others. It all depends on if you are for hire or not. Let's say you own a backhoe. Let's say you're licensed for 30k and you weigh 27k loaded. If you haul that backhoe to go do work for your neighbor down the road you will need a cdl. However, if you are just hauling down the road to your other property to dig out a fence line you won't need a cdl.

Another instance. I went to Idaho to get a tractor, pickup, and some other equipment back home in Idaho. My combined weight was about 28k. I was hauling my own equipment for my own use. I was not required to have a cdl.

It's the same with farming. My round bale trailer holds 14 bales. This is usually about 21k. I can legally haul this trailer down the road with either my tractor or pickup and be completely legal with or without a cdl.

What you guys are talking about is commercial hauling. With commercial hauling you certainly do need a cdl. Next time you're on the highway look at alot of the dually 350, 450, and 550 trucks. Most of them say not for hire on the side. The reason they say this is because they are not required to stop at scales for the most part and they are not required to have a cdl.