Heat: Fuel Oil vs Propane vs Electric

[Carl_NH]

12 month average. I can hit $400+/month in the winter depending how cold and how windy.

Hi sdkubota,

At $.06 / KWH and $170 per month, thats roughly 2800KWH / month. Here in the northeast 2800KWH @ $.20 KWH would cost $560 per month! And if your bill goes up to $400 some months well, it would be $1500 here.

We will stick with oil for heat and hot water and electric - which is $3K per year total or $250 for heat and electric per month for 2800SF.

Oaktree,

Yes, when we looked at propane I only considered buying a 800 gal tank (enough to buy once for most of the winter) so we were not tied into one supplier for a long time.

 

[MasseyWV]

We heat with electric, and it sucks. Propane is used for emergencies, and if that runs out... anything that will burn is fair game.

 

[DKCDKC]

We have noticed that we can turn on the heat pump in the morning and heat the house to 73-75 and turn it off for the rest of the day. We might have to turn the heat pump on early in the evening to heat the house back up but that will be it. This is not as good as using the wood stove but it is working and we are comfortable.

I have seen strong research by EPRI and DOE that says turning a heat pump off and on during a day actually increases the total electric consumption. If temperatures drop more than a few degrees, the HP will call for expensive electric resistive backup and the total consumption will rise drastically. They recommend just turning it down a few degrees - if you must - but never shutting it off. They actually say running it constantly at the lowest comfortable temperature is the best way to save. Apparently the HP has to be off for more than a full day to have any hope of actually saving.

 

[aczlan]

I have seen strong research by EPRI and DOE that says turning a heat pump off and on during a day actually increases the total electric consumption. If temperatures drop more than a few degrees, the HP will call for expensive electric resistive backup and the total consumption will rise drastically. They recommend just turning it down a few degrees - if you must - but never shutting it off. They actually say running it constantly at the lowest comfortable temperature is the best way to save. Apparently the HP has to be off for more than a full day to have any hope of actually saving.

Our heating guy says the same thing about the hot water/radiator system in the house. If you drop the tamp by more than 3-4 degrees for part of the day (or just shut it off for part of the day), you burn more fuel bringing everything back up to temperature than you would if you had just dropped it 2 degrees.

Aaron Z

 

[jejeosborne]

Our heating guy says the same thing about the hot water/radiator system in the house. If you drop the tamp by more than 3-4 degrees for part of the day (or just shut it off for part of the day), you burn more fuel bringing everything back up to temperature than you would if you had just dropped it 2 degrees.

Aaron Z

Not sure this is true. All the BTUs stayed inside your conditioned space. Only losses in a combustion setup is what goes out the flue. Electric HP is using twice or 3 times the energy when using the resistant coils as the source rather than the HP. Setback thermometers should be used on combustion systems as drastic as possible in my mind. It is all about differential temps between the inside and outside.

 

[aczlan]

Not sure this is true. All the BTUs stayed inside your conditioned space. Only losses in a combustion setup is what goes out the flue. Electric HP is using twice or 3 times the energy when using the resistant coils as the source rather than the HP. Setback thermometers should be used on combustion systems as drastic as possible in my mind. It is all about differential temps between the inside and outside.

Good point.

Aaron Z

 

[GPintheMitten]

When I had the groundwater HP, I shut the breaker off for the resistance coils backup heat unless I left town. Even in cold Michigan winters, the HP always kept up.

The reason I did this was because sometimes we would adjust the thermostat, and I didn't want the resistance kicking in. But we did not rutinely use setbacks.

 

[jejeosborne]

When I had the groundwater HP, I shut the breaker off for the resistance coils backup heat unless I left town. Even in cold Michigan winters, the HP always kept up.

The reason I did this was because sometimes we would adjust the thermostat, and I didn't want the resistance kicking in. But we did not rutinely use setbacks.

One of the luxuries of ground source vs air source. I have the carrier infinity system air source and it allows me to determine a lockout temperature which locks out the backup unless the outside air temperature is below a certain temp. I have mine set at 25 degrees. Air source units really loose efficiency quickly below 25.

 

[Turbys_1700]

The house I live in was built by my grandfather in 1953...
1450 sq. ft. brick rancher with full basement...
The original heat source was an oil circulatory unit sitting in the hall way close to the bath room...
Around 10 years later or so my grandfather put in an oil furnace...
When I moved into the house in 1985 we utilized window air conditioners and the oil furnace...
Around 1994 or so Duke Energy had a promotion to convert current homes to heat pumps...
We had insulation blown in the side walls, ceiling, and basement in addition to installing a heat pump...
I can attest to the efficiency of the heat pump here in NC...
My house is over 60 years old and my utility bill runs around $2000 per year...
I think that our electric rates are in the 9.3 cents per KWH range...
That is total cost...
I am basically saving the cost of 700 gallons of fuel oil every year...
Not chump change...

 

[DKCDKC]

Heat pumps are efficient because they don't create heat, just move it around. However, the harder they have to work to pull heat out of cold outside air, the more power they use. A dual-fuel system is almost always better than a straight electric HP, geo like mine or not. Almost any energy is cheaper than the resistive electric used as backup. In an earlier house I had with oil heat, I replaced the central AC with a heat pump, but without even putting in the backup - because I had oil. In a dual fuel setup, when the system calls for backup, it simply fires up the oil. Worked great.

My current geo HP system has a much lower temp at which it kicks in backup - and is a zoned system set to keep rooms like the bedroom and spare room cooler. I have the backup for when I'm not home, but simply use a small woodstove otherwise. A small stove in a almost 3,000 sq ft ranch provides all the heat needed to stave off backup resistive at least down to 6 degrees, the coldest experienced in the last 12 years anyway. Since we almost never get colder temps here, that's enough.

 

[dmccarty]

I have seen strong research by EPRI and DOE that says turning a heat pump off and on during a day actually increases the total electric consumption. If temperatures drop more than a few degrees, the HP will call for expensive electric resistive backup and the total consumption will rise drastically. They recommend just turning it down a few degrees - if you must - but never shutting it off. They actually say running it constantly at the lowest comfortable temperature is the best way to save. Apparently the HP has to be off for more than a full day to have any hope of actually saving.

The heat strips do not turn on when we do this. No way would it be cheaper to run the heat pump all day. Because that is exactly what that danged thing will do, run all day long vs twice. When we turn it on in the morning in might run for an hour or so. Running two hours a day is cheaper than running 24 hours. Our average power bill is $120 a month. During the summer, the bill can jump to $180-190. I expect our heating bill would be over $200 a month. The wifey does not like cold temps so we let the temps get to 82ish in the summer but we keep the temp a max of 72-75 with the heat pump. Last months power bill was $140-150 some of which was heating but I also was using the stove more than usual. I have never seen the heat strip lights turn on and the heated air from the registers is not real hot either.

Later,
Dan

 

[timster2]

Don't know where you would store your oil inside or buried outside. On the news last nite was a story of a homeowner who came home to a smell of oil in the basement. Seems that the buried tank sprang a leak and soaked the soil and finally ran into the basement wall and soaked its way through. She contacted her insurance carrier and found out that the leak was not covered under her homeowners policy. Now she will be out thousands to remove the leaking tank and contaminated soil. Oil leaks can be costly.

 

[Carl_NH]

Don't know where you would store your oil inside or buried outside. On the news last nite was a story of a homeowner who came home to a smell of oil in the basement. Seems that the buried tank sprang a leak and soaked the soil and finally ran into the basement wall and soaked its way through. She contacted her insurance carrier and found out that the leak was not covered under her homeowners policy. Now she will be out thousands to remove the leaking tank and contaminated soil. Oil leaks can be costly.

Thats why I installed a double wall Roth tank in an exterior insulated area and it has a Rollie heating and suction probe to prevent gelling. The Roth tanks have a $1M liability coverage included in case of a leak.

 

[jejeosborne]

The heat strips do not turn on when we do this. No way would it be cheaper to run the heat pump all day. Because that is exactly what that danged thing will do, run all day long vs twice. When we turn it on in the morning in might run for an hour or so. Running two hours a day is cheaper than running 24 hours. Our average power bill is $120 a month. During the summer, the bill can jump to $180-190. I expect our heating bill would be over $200 a month. The wifey does not like cold temps so we let the temps get to 82ish in the summer but we keep the temp a max of 72-75 with the heat pump. Last months power bill was $140-150 some of which was heating but I also was using the stove more than usual. I have never seen the heat strip lights turn on and the heated air from the registers is not real hot either.

Later,
Dan

I am sure each system is different. Most will kick in emergency heat if the set temperature vs actual temperature has a certain spread, say 5 degrees. One could defeat this by stair stepping the set temperature in a couple of steps.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

This is my first year of geothermal (groundsource) after 16 yrs of oil. definitely has been cheaper than burning oil. I'll have some hard numbers at the end of the heating season.

 

[westcliffe01]

Its a difficult comparison. Diesel is at near record high pricing right now and was pretty high a year ago. The question is what is going to happen to electricity pricing. The writing is already on the wall for new coal fired power stations and the government is going to try to shut down existing coal fired stations through the EPA. Supply/demand will push prices up to make the economics of renewable work out, which in turn will drive up the cost of solar panels and wind turbines. For a while, while Greece and Spain were spending their loaned Euros we saw the price of solar panels increase in $/watt due to supply restrictions, despite China having come on line for the first time with solar panel production.

The population is still increasing, so demand for electricity is not going to decline. If permits do get issued to build a bunch of natural gas fired power stations, that would be good for the price of electricity, but bad for the longevity of the source of NG. Another decade or 2 and we will be back to the same point again.

 

[MasseyWV]

Diesel is at near record high pricing right now and was pretty high a year ago.

And it's only going to get worse.

 

[sdkubota]

I am sure each system is different. Most will kick in emergency heat if the set temperature vs actual temperature has a certain spread, say 5 degrees. One could defeat this by stair stepping the set temperature in a couple of steps.

My heat pump has an adjustable control system. I can set the amount of time the heat pump runs before any resistance heat kicks in from 10 mins to 60 mins. Once the resistance heat kicks in the meter spins like it is taking off. I believe there are 3 - 60A 240v resistance heat banks in my air handler. Needless to say I have my heat pump set to run for 45 minutes before any help is given.

 

[dmccarty]

My heat pump has an adjustable control system. I can set the amount of time the heat pump runs before any resistance heat kicks in from 10 mins to 60 mins. Once the resistance heat kicks in the meter spins like it is taking off. I believe there are 3 - 60A 240v resistance heat banks in my air handler. Needless to say I have my heat pump set to run for 45 minutes before any help is given.

It is odd that our heat strips do not turn on. In our old city house, if I turned up the heat like I am doing now, the heat strips would come on. You could feel the heat and the light on the thermostat would turn on. This does not happen in the "new" house. Maybe our system is setup similar to yours. :confused3:

Later,
Dan

 

[tcartwri]

Diesel and heating oil are definitely going to keep ramping up.