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[teg]

We have a new house at the farm, with new electrical service, 200 amp. Our problem is we "pop"/trip GFCI breakers like there is no tomorrow (4-5 of them, 2-3 times a weekend). They are not over loaded, in fact rarely is anything actually "On" those circuits when they trip.

We are getting an electrician out there but I want to be somewhat informed as to what might cause this.

Our best guess is that it has to do with the well pump (usually happens when doing laundry or running the dishwasher). I will confirm this next weekend, to see if they trip when the well pump kicks in.


Could the well pump be grounding out somehow? Anything we can do to isolate that circuit?

(we know absolutely nothing about our well pump, it worked fine on the old farm house service, but they didn't have any GFCI circuits)

View attachment 509410

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

Where do you pop GFCI's? Your washer and well shouldn't have anything to do with the GFCI circuits, they should be on there own breaker.

GFCI's protect against water mainly, everywhere that water can contact and potentially short out an outlet it's code to have a GFCI, kitchens, bathrooms ext.

A new building code I hear requires a GFCI in every room now which is absolutely ridiculous.

Maybe someone with more knowledge on the matter can chime in but I have never heard of a well or washer being on a GFCI.

Are you resetting the GFCI outlets? Or are you flipping breakers?

 

[kenmac]

If they sense any type of electrical feed back they will trip.
You may have several tied to the same circuit. So, it one trips you have no power to the others.
I had one on a fart fan circuit. When turning the fan off, it would trip. I took the GFCI out of that circuit and I have had no more issues.

 

[teg]

So the breakers are tripping in the electric panel. Never had an outlet trip on it's own, always the breaker in the basement.

Usually 4 breakers will trip at once during a "wash" cycle, including the washing machine. But we have had times where none tripped during a wash cycle. (not sure if the well pump ran during that time).

I know every other circuit breaker is on a different pole. Well pump is at the bottom of the left side, 240. We trip breakers 2,3,4,7,8 all on the left side (Water heater is 5 and 6 and never trips).

2 and 4 are bedrooms with no loads. 3 is the washroom... not even sure what 7 and 8 are connected to, I think outside boxes... which, If I remember correctly, one box will trip real easy. (need to check into that, next time up).

Something is tripping the 4 (or 5) breakers and it's not on the outlet side...

{EDIT} I'm not sure how the panel is actually numbered, I was guessing that the left side is numbered, 1 at the top, 2 below it, then 3, 4, 5, 6, and so forth down the left side... I've seen now that the numbering goes back and forth from left to right side...)

 

[Xfaxman]

The first step is to measure the voltage in the breaker box, to see if the 125 VAC legs are about the same voltage.

You may have a problem with the Neutral connection somewhere.

 

[teg]

I've tested all the outlets with this cheap thing:

Electrical Receptacle Wall Plug AC Outlet Ground Tester - Circuit Testers - Amazon.com

That says ground and neutrals are fine...

We have a pretty good tester... I'll check each leg and see what it says this next weekend, too.

Thanks...

 

[Gary Fowler]

I had a GFCI that kept tripping (bathroom) and finally traced it down that it included an outside receptacle. After removing the cover, I found it full of spider webs. I cleaned all that out and reinstalled the cover and no more problem. It doesn't take much to make them trip.
Personally I would remove all of them except for receptacle around sinks and outside receptacles. You don't need them anywhere else for safety. You shouldn't need one on your well pump circuit either or washing machine since there is really no reason for you to be in contact with water at either location.
Maybe it isn't CODE compliant to do that but it is still safe without GFCI in those circuits.

 

[Oldoak]

..............................A new building code I hear requires a GFCI in every room now which is absolutely ridiculous.......................................

You think that is ridiculous. Our PA state building code, which most counties and local municipalities follow, require Arc-Fault circuit breakers for almost every room but the kitchen and bathroom. They are so sensitive older style vacuum cleaners or anything with worn motor brushes with trip them. And those Arc-Fault breakers are very expensive, $30+ each.

When we built our new house 5 years ago, I asked the electrician what to do about them if they give me trouble. He said do what other people have done, replace them with standard breakers after the building code enforcement inspection has been done. :confused3:

How did we live so long without government intervention?

 

[teejk]

Just a question...does the OP have GFCI breakers installed in the panel and has GFCI outlets on the same circuits? That is redundant and will likely cause false "trips".

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

Teg,

If you will snap a pic of the panel.

 

[buickanddeere]

has somebody worked on the wiring that thinks that "ground and neutral are the same" ? Are there GFCI, AFCI or combo units ?
Don't know about the NEC but the CEC allows an exemption from GFCI use if the appliance is three prong and permanently blocking access to the receptacle such a a cupboard microwave, fridge, freezer or washing machine. Nothing in the kitchen or bathroom requires AFCI. Sump pump and alarm/smoke detectors are also AFCI exempt.

 

[ustmd]

So the breakers are tripping in the electric panel. Never had an outlet trip on it's own, always the breaker in the basement.

Usually 4 breakers will trip at once during a "wash" cycle, including the washing machine. But we have had times where none tripped during a wash cycle. (not sure if the well pump ran during that time).

I know every other circuit breaker is on a different pole. Well pump is at the bottom of the left side, 240. We trip breakers 2,3,4,7,8 all on the left side (Water heater is 5 and 6 and never trips).

2 and 4 are bedrooms with no loads. 3 is the washroom... not even sure what 7 and 8 are connected to, I think outside boxes... which, If I remember correctly, one box will trip real easy. (need to check into that, next time up).

Something is tripping the 4 (or 5) breakers and it's not on the outlet side...

{EDIT} I'm not sure how the panel is actually numbered, I was guessing that the left side is numbered, 1 at the top, 2 below it, then 3, 4, 5, 6, and so forth down the left side... I've seen now that the numbering goes back and forth from left to right side...)

teg,

Just for clarification, when your GFIs trip, are multiple circuits tripping all at the same time, e.g breakers 2,4, 6 all trip at the same time or is it the case that one will trip and then maybe an hour later another will, etc.?

 

[teg]

Teg,

If you will snap a pic of the panel.

Definitely, This Thursday!! I knew I should have done that last weekend...


teejk, Just GFCI at the panel... none at the outlets.

 

[teg]

has somebody worked on the wiring that thinks that "ground and neutral are the same" ? Are there GFCI, AFCI or combo units ? ....

I do not know what AFCI is and did not see that lettering on anything.

So a little back story... not related, but maybe. The builder was good, his subs. NOT so good. Lost count how many were fired. Plumber is the electrician... Plumbing "passed" code, I found a drain to our 2nd bath tub not hooked up. Electric "passed" code, I found a bundle of wire with live wires that shorted out when I went to inspect it... (if I can find the photo of it I'll post it)

Will plan to pay another electrician to come out and check and look at things but need to figure out what would cause 4-5 breakers to trip at the same time (no load).

 

[teg]

teg,

Just for clarification, when your GFIs trip, are multiple circuits tripping all at the same time, e.g breakers 2,4, 6 all trip at the same time or is it the case that one will trip and then maybe an hour later another will, etc.?

When we notice one has tripped, we go to the basement and almost always, there is at least one other that has tripped. Sometime two, sometimes 3 but mostly it's 4 and a few times 5 tripped when we go down to reset the one we need.

As far as I can remember, when we leave, no circuits trip but we do cut the power for the hot water and the well pump.

I think #1 GFCI and maybe #10 have never tripped.

THANK YOU ALL for any and all replies!!!! Hopefully, Thursday I'll post photos of the panel.

 

[gary49]

AFCI's are arc fault breakers. A picture of your panel will probably be enough for those of us who familiar with them to tell whether they are GFI or AFI breakers. Do you notice significant dimming of lights when a motor load starts?

 

[teg]

AFCI's are arc fault breakers. A picture of your panel will probably be enough for those of us who familiar with them to tell whether they are GFI or AFI breakers. Do you notice significant dimming of lights when a motor load starts?

Funny you should ask (or not, in my case). Flicker verses dim, actually never seen them "dim".

Our HVAC would not cycle completely... it would only stay on for a minute or so before shutting itself down. Even thou it didn't raise the temp. to the thermostat setting... Got a HVAC guy out there to look at it (pretty sharp guy) finally traced it to the water overflow cutoff (on the condensation drain line).

He took a screw driver and hit the pipe and the lights flicker (HVAC motor turning on and off). Cleaned out the drywall dust that was caked inside and it has worked fine since then.

Will do on the photos...

 

[teg]

Just to keep this thread interesting... (a different an electrical story... shocking, happened a few hours ago).

So we were flooded here in Raleigh. Do our normal "cleaning" of the basement. Unplug an electrical outlet that was under water (not the first time) and everything was fine with it... unlike the time floor outlets were making hot water (steam) another story...

SO we've been running 2 dehumidifiers pretty much non-stop. Finally had some basement lights go out and I go over to the panel and hear a "welding" noise... I've had this once before... arcing sounds.

No problem, head to Lowes and buy the wrong breaker... head back for the correct ones. First time around I cut the main, found I bought the wrong ones powered everything back on, except the one. (broke another one getting the first one out)

Jokingly told the wife who is a double E, naa, I'll wire it live... without thinking put in the first one. For the second one, I held the wire and rested my pinky finger on the panel to steady it and got a heck of a tingle!!!!

Was enjoying the music in the back ground when it dawned on me, I did wire it live... still not sure how that happened but the wife took an IR camera to the panel and a ground fault breaker (which is not hooked up) was pretty HOT!!!

Since it was not connected to any thing, I turned it off.... Deal with it later... (it a longer story typed out, sorry)

 

[QRTRHRS]

This may make some scratch their head but I swear it worked. Many years ago I had a house with a wet dirt floor basement. It was an old house (1720-1750) with a shallow basement. Rather that put up with mud when I had to do something down there, I tapered the dirt floor to one corner, put a little gravel down and poured a sump pump hole at the lowest point. The sump pump would kick the GFCI. I read in Popular Mechanics or Science, forget which now, that a "hospital rated" GFCI would not trip so readily upon the sump pump motor start up. It worked. That GFCI cost about 25 bucks in the early 80's compared to maybe less than ten for a regular GFCI at the time.

 

[CobyRupert]

Are they all really GFCI breakers? They have little white pigtails?
Why would you have GFCI's for bedrooms?
AFCI seems more likely.

However, let's assume they all are GFCI. Typically a GFCI trips when the "hot" current going out to the circuit and loads does not equal the same neutral current coming back. Then you know some current has "leaked". It usually only take around 3-5milliamps (3/1000th of an amp) of current imbalance for them to trip.

I be willing to bet the problem is in the circuits neutral(s) and/or an inadvertent ground bus connection. That somehow several circuit's neutrals are bonded and are splitting each others neutral current. That is, they provide an alternate parallel path for the neutral current. If the neutrals of several circuits were (somehow) connected (example: bonded to the common ground at their respective outlets), then all the circuits that are bonded would experience a "ground fault" because of the imbalance. This might only occur when certain loads are turned on, which is the only time you're creating a return neutral current.
One would think you'd get these trips happening from day #1.