How do you bend Titanium sheet metal?

   / How do you bend Titanium sheet metal? #21  
I used to install Beryllium "scatter" shields on the turbines of Allison engines installed in Sikorsky S-76 helicopters. I installed in on 4 Air Logistics helicopters. Seems there was a new "improved" tube installed inside the engine that didn't have an oil passage. About 10 or so S76's turbines exploded from oil starvation and would take out the tail rotor driveshaft, the engine beside it............and the AC and DC junction boxes just below the engines. Total loss of life and aircraft. All crashes over water..........so no recovered parts for investagation. Finally, one went down over land...........and it revealed what was causing the engines to explode. The beryllium was hard and slow to work with and install.
hugs, Brandi
 
   / How do you bend Titanium sheet metal? #22  
When the SR-71 Blackbirds were built back in the late 50's that is when titanium was developed as a material. A lot of trial and error heat treatment gage size etc. There are lots of good articles on the planes development. They initially had trouble drilling the titanium and that is when cobalt (M42) drills were developed. Penn State developed the engine fuel/ hydraulic fluid. The hydraulic fluid needed to withstand 800 degree F and then was burnt as fuel.Now again as I generally do, this from memory, so if I made an error or two here, it's on me. It is well worth the time to read the history of the SR-71A. I think i still have a couple of VHS tapes on the planes developement. Later

SR 71's weren't built until the 60's. The first one flew in 1964. The pioneers of titanium were Avro aircraft/Orenda engines in Canada. In 1952/53 there were only a couple hundred lbs. of titanium produced in the world. A couple years later it was in demand at Orenda because the new Iroquois engine for the Avro Arrow was the first jet engine to be designed from titanium from the outset. Previously only a few parts were made with titanium. They developed special methods for working with titanium such as boiling out impurities in a vacuum chamber. The Iroquois PS13 was the most powerful jet engine in the world in the late 50's. The SR71 benefitted from Avro's experience and it's highly likely that there were former Avro engineers working on the SR71. Just compare the cockpit of the Arrow with the SR71. When the Arrow was cancelled, the US aircraft manufacturers were knocking at the door. 35 engineers went to NASA. The chief aerodynamicist on the arrow, Jim Chamberlin, was the first non American to win NASA's highest award. NASA awarded Chamberlin its Exceptional Scientific Achievement, Exceptional Service and Exceptional Engineering Achievement medals. He was the head of the Mercury and Gemini projects that lead to the Apollo missions. The head of mission control was ex Avro as well. Titanium wasn't the only material developed for the Arrow. The manufacturers of the landing gear needed a super strong material to be small enough to fit in the wings and developed a material with a 260,000 PSI tensile strength.
 
   / How do you bend Titanium sheet metal? #23  
Boeing broke ground with titanium on the B58's skins.
hugs, Brandi
 
   / How do you bend Titanium sheet metal? #24  
Here's a few things I found in a quick look. The first one deals with hydrogen embrittlement which Orenda were pioneers in solving. Titanium wasn't developed specifically for the arrow but Orenda were the first ones to design an engine around it. Avro doesn't get much credit, or mention for that matter, in other parts of the world because after it's cancellation, all the planes, records, blueprints and everything associated with it were ordered destroyed! Noted Canadian author Pierre Burton had said that the destruction of the completed airplanes was the biggest act of official vandalism in Canadian history. Avro were the recognized world leaders in high performance aircraft research and development in the 1950's. They had a passenger jet 7 years before Boeing! It has been said that without the cancellation of the Arrow, NASA wouldn't have put a man on the moon in 1969. One surviving Iroquois engine went to Bristol in the UK where they studied it's design to develop the engines for the Concorde. The chief of engineering at Avro was hired as a consultant on the Concorde.

"Shipments of mill products could not keep up with the demand of the jet engine builders and the airframe companies. Only 250 tons were shipped in 1952 and 1100 tons in 1953. Then metal in the shipments showed brittle failure further slowing production. The problem was hydrogen embrittlement, and was solved by annealing in a vacuum."

The Iroquois design was based on simplicity and lightness. With this in mind, Orenda pioneered work in the use of titanium in engines, with 20% by weight of the Iroquois (mainly the compressor rotor blades) consisting of this metal. Titanium has light weight, high strength and good temperature and corrosion resistance. It was estimated that the engine would be 850 pounds (386 kg) lighter than if steel had been used. During the early 1950s, this material was in short supply, and the lack of knowledge of its physical properties and fabrication techniques created problems which had to be overcome. It was also very expensive relative to the more common materials such as steel and aluminum.

It was recognized that if the engine parts could be designed with titanium, then the supporting structure could also be lightened due to reduced forces within the engine, with an overall saving in weight. Other parts, such as gearbox casings were made with a magnesium alloy. Inconel was used to make the blades in the low pressure turbine assembly and the metal insulation blanket found at the rear of the engine. This heat resistant nickel-chrome alloy retains its strength at high temperatures and resists oxidation and corrosion. The primary reason for using these advanced metals was to save weight and improve performance, creating an engine with a 5:1 thrust to weight ratio that could produce a sea level dry thrust of 19,250 lb (26,000 lb with afterburner). The design, development and manufacture of such an advanced jet engine was accomplished in an incredibly short time by the Orenda team. The detailed design was completed in May 1954, and the first run was achieved on 15 December 1954. The earlier Orenda 9 had more parts but produced less power. For example, the Orenda 9 weighed 2,560 lb (1,160 kg) and produced 6,355 lb (2,883 kg) static thrust, while the Iroquois weighed 5,900 lb. (2,675 kg) but was reported to have produced 30,000 lb (13,608 kg) static thrust with afterburner for takeoff. (The Orenda did not have an afterburner.)

The Iroquois was one of the most powerful jet engines in the world at its time of introduction, rated at 19,250 lbf (85.6 kN) dry, 25,000 lbf (111 kN) afterburning. It was aerodynamically matched for peak performance at 50,000 feet (15,200 m) altitude and Mach 2 speed.
 
   / How do you bend Titanium sheet metal? #25  
Boeing broke ground with titanium on the B58's skins.
hugs, Brandi

I can only find reference to titanium screws in the B58.

That is one of my favorite planes. When I was a kid in the 60's we'd drive past Bunker Hill AFB (now Grissom AFB) and they had B58s in hangars right by the road. There is still one down there at an outdoor museum. I had a friend whose father was the navigator on a B58 when it won the Bendix Trophy in 1962. That aircraft is now at the museum in Dayton, OH. I believe it was the last "official" winner of the Bendix Trophy.
Factsheets : Convair B-58A Hustler

That record (Los Angeles to New York) took 2hr 1min and 39 seconds and stood for 28 years. In 1990, the SR71 flew L.A. to east coast (Virginia) in 64 minutes! However, it wasn't for the Bendix Trophy, just braggin' rights! :laughing:
 
   / How do you bend Titanium sheet metal?
  • Thread Starter
#26  
I can only find reference to titanium screws in the B58.

That is one of my favorite planes. When I was a kid in the 60's we'd drive past Bunker Hill AFB (now Grissom AFB) and they had B58s in hangars right by the road. There is still one down there at an outdoor museum. I had a friend whose father was the navigator on a B58 when it won the Bendix Trophy in 1962. That aircraft is now at the museum in Dayton, OH. I believe it was the last "official" winner of the Bendix Trophy.
Factsheets : Convair B-58A Hustler

That record (Los Angeles to New York) took 2hr 1min and 39 seconds and stood for 28 years. In 1990, the SR71 flew L.A. to east coast (Virginia) in 64 minutes! However, it wasn't for the Bendix Trophy, just braggin' rights! :laughing:

Could you imagine if the Carter Administration hadn't "gutted" the original design and intent for the B1 bombers?
 
   / How do you bend Titanium sheet metal? #27  
Could you imagine if the Carter Administration hadn't "gutted" the original design and intent for the B1 bombers?

I do not know what you are talking about. Please elaborate. Thanks. :)
 
   / How do you bend Titanium sheet metal?
  • Thread Starter
#28  
I do not know what you are talking about. Please elaborate. Thanks. :)

I will have to re-watch Great Planes episode for specifics, but they basically got caught up in a budget cutting year and they ended up with a fraction of their original design horsepower. I remember it going back and forth for weeks because of powerful politicians in the districts where they were built. The version we have is a "compromise".
 
   / How do you bend Titanium sheet metal? #29  
I see. This article shows the B1-A as having a top speed of M2.2 while the B1-B that we got has a top speed of M1.25. Doesn't say much about who killed what or compromised where. 4 A prototypes were built. No production models.

Rockwell B-1 Lancer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you read the article, it says Carter killed it because you could build 200 cruise missiles for the price of one B1 bomber, AND, Carter signed the first funding for the B2 program. He knew what was coming and thought putting cruise missiles on B52s was a more cost effective choice for a stop-gap between replacing the B52 and when the stealth technology would come on line.

Interesting history and good read. Thanks for pointing it out. :thumbsup:
 
   / How do you bend Titanium sheet metal? #30  
Forming Ti sheet is not easy. Depending on the type of Ti, it can be cold formed. Common 6/4 is typically hot formed... 10/2/3 is cold formable if you keep your radii generous.
 
   / How do you bend Titanium sheet metal? #31  
I can only find reference to titanium screws in the B58.

That is one of my favorite planes. When I was a kid in the 60's we'd drive past Bunker Hill AFB (now Grissom AFB) and they had B58s in hangars right by the road. There is still one down there at an outdoor museum. I had a friend whose father was the navigator on a B58 when it won the Bendix Trophy in 1962. That aircraft is now at the museum in Dayton, OH. I believe it was the last "official" winner of the Bendix Trophy.
Factsheets : Convair B-58A Hustler

That record (Los Angeles to New York) took 2hr 1min and 39 seconds and stood for 28 years. In 1990, the SR71 flew L.A. to east coast (Virginia) in 64 minutes! However, it wasn't for the Bendix Trophy, just braggin' rights! :laughing:

MossRoad,
Maybe I am thinking of Stainless Steel. We have (or did have) a B-58 at the Lone Star Flight Museum in Galveston. They are currently moving to the old Ellington Air Force Base near Nasa. A friend and coworker worked on B-58s. He is 76 now and still working! It was my favorite also. It's down fall was it was too small. Unlike the BUFF.................there wasn't room for modern avionics upgrades.
hugs, Brandi
 
   / How do you bend Titanium sheet metal? #32  
Considering what a good general workhorse the B-52 is, I'm almost surprised that someone isn't building new ones. On the other hand, the ones currently in service have probably had every single piece of them replaced at least once or twice during their depot rebuilds.
 
   / How do you bend Titanium sheet metal? #33  
MossRoad,
Maybe I am thinking of Stainless Steel. We have (or did have) a B-58 at the Lone Star Flight Museum in Galveston. They are currently moving to the old Ellington Air Force Base near Nasa. A friend and coworker worked on B-58s. He is 76 now and still working! It was my favorite also. It's down fall was it was too small. Unlike the BUFF.................there wasn't room for modern avionics upgrades.
hugs, Brandi

I think the reasons for the B58's downfall were many. Russia developed better radar and the thing performed horribly at high speed/low altitude. They had to slow it down when flying low, which made it an easier target and also ate the fuel economy. It was also a very unstable plane. Something like 20% of them were lost to accidents in 10 years. But man it sure is a beautiful machine. I look at it every time I drive past and remember them sitting in those hangars along US 31 waiting to go. We'd see them flying in an out once in a while, too. That was a long time ago. :rolleyes:
 
   / How do you bend Titanium sheet metal? #34  
I think the reasons for the B58's downfall were many. Russia developed better radar and the thing performed horribly at high speed/low altitude. They had to slow it down when flying low, which made it an easier target and also ate the fuel economy. It was also a very unstable plane. Something like 20% of them were lost to accidents in 10 years. But man it sure is a beautiful machine. I look at it every time I drive past and remember them sitting in those hangars along US 31 waiting to go. We'd see them flying in an out once in a while, too. That was a long time ago. :rolleyes:
Moss, you summed it up well IMO. An interesting bird no doubt but it missed its calling.
 
   / How do you bend Titanium sheet metal? #35  
Ti needs to be heated to about 550 deg F and bent on brake quickly
that being said it will catch fire easily if there are small splinters or chips
care must be taken as water will fuel the fire and become violent
I know this from experience (used to machine Ti casting and would take home chips and scrap casting for the fire pit) :eek:
 
   / How do you bend Titanium sheet metal? #36  
Not as interesting as other posts, but I remember in the 90's that an industrial surplus dealer I was friendly with got a bunch of titanium crow bars cheap from a Russian company that was scrapping their submarines, and was trying to find a way to profit from the metals. Now I wish I had one.
 
   / How do you bend Titanium sheet metal? #37  
FWIW the best way to form Ti is with high energy rate deformation process like petro forges and explosive forming.
The Ti skins used on rckets were mostly explosive formed over concrete moulds using big voltage wires passing through bags of water.
Smaller items like dentures can be made using a plaster mould in a pressure tight container powered by a shot gun cartridge
 
   / How do you bend Titanium sheet metal? #38  
Bertsmobile, I gotta search for Youtube videos of high energy rate deformation forming! Sounds interesting.
 
   / How do you bend Titanium sheet metal? #39  
This is Oldtimer 66. I need to apologize, I must have been mistaken when I said the SR71 was built in the late 50's. My comment about Penn State developing the hydraulic/ engine fuel must also be mistaken. I probably got that from watching Star Wars to many times. I need to learn how to Google something and then copy and paste that information then copy some ones post just to one up them. My computer skills must be lacking. Relying on my memory is just not cutting it. Let's see first flight in 1964. They must have fast tracked that program. 4-5 years to design, develop , test, build, yea that time line sounds about right. I used to go to the Dayton Air show back in the 80's. I remember the announcer saying the SR71 Blackbird just left San Francisco and it will be here in about an hour and a half. He must have been wrong to. You could not get within 100 yards of that plane because it was all roped off but it was impressive from a distance. Later.
 
   / How do you bend Titanium sheet metal? #40  
... I used to go to the Dayton Air show back in the 80's. I remember the announcer saying the SR71 Blackbird just left San Francisco and it will be here in about an hour and a half. He must have been wrong to. You could not get within 100 yards of that plane because it was all roped off but it was impressive from a distance. Later.

He was most likely correct. Although they wouldn't have been pushing it anywhere near its limits as it only took them about an hour to go SF to DC when they retired it. :)
 

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