How old is too old?

[4x4moses]

I have reached the 400 hr mark on my Kioti DK4510. The owner's manual says replace the hydraulic oil & filter at 350 hrs; but I have procrastinated. The owner's manual says a complete fluid change requires eleven gallons. I have two 1-gallon jugs of NAPA premium fluid, and about half a 5-gallon bucket of same. It's new fluid, but it's been sitting here for about FOUR YEARS! Knowing that hydraulic fluid is hydroscopic (attracts water), is this old fluid safe to use? Or should I just discard it and buy all new fluid?
I ain't the smartest guy around, and I'm only mildly mechanically inclined; so I'm hoping to tap the vast reservoir of knowledge available on TBN!

 

[oldnslo]

Have the containers been opened or are they still factory sealed? Where they stored in a climate controlled environment or in an ambient temperature building with temp and humidity swings?

Myself I would consider the above and fluid costs vs potential for major component failure if fluid is contaminated.

Other option is pull oil sample from your tractor and get it analyzed to see if fluid does need to be replaced.

 

[4x4moses]

Have the containers been opened or are they still factory sealed? Where they stored in a climate controlled environment or in an ambient temperature building with temp and humidity swings?

Myself I would consider the above and fluid costs vs potential for major component failure if fluid is contaminated.

Other option is pull oil sample from your tractor and get it analyzed to see if fluid does need to be replaced.

All containers have been unsealed, but are in original containers. They're in a cabinet in my unheated/cooled tractor shed. Where would one have the currently-used fluid analyzed?

 

[oldnslo]

I believe CAT dealerships have option for running oil samples but would check with your local to confirm this service and pricing. There other company called Blackstone lab that also offers this service. They used to have prices and analysis types listed on-line but I have not looked for a couple of years.

Nice thing about analysis is that it can provide some indication of pending component wear - failure and also tell you if oil is contaminated or still good.

 

[gmgm]

Last time I checked the price of an oil sample, it was a lot, and only made sense on "mining-scale" equipment. Perhaps you will be more lucky!

(Personally I don't think 4 years is old for oil, but I am absolutely not an expert!).

 

[BleedingOrange]

Do you want to pay a little now, or much much more later. How long do you plan on keeping your tractor ? Don,t be cheap, get all new fluid and new filters. Use the old stuff for fire starter. Buy cheap shoes or clothes. Tractor fluids, not worth the gamble.

 

[4x4moses]

Do you want to pay a little now, or much much more later. How long do you plan on keeping your tractor ? Don,t be cheap, get all new fluid and new filters. Use the old stuff for fire starter. Buy cheap shoes or clothes. Tractor fluids, not worth the gamble.

I too believe it is foolish to spend $30,000 on a new tractor; and cheap out on fluids. That's why I only use quality oil/fluid/grease. My brother-in-law has old Landini tractors, and isn't afraid to use old fluid; so I'll probably just give my old stuff to him. Thinking about switching to Mobil or Shell fluid; since my Kioti dealer is no longer a NAPA dealer.

 

[RayIN]

Simply pour the clear oil off the top of each container. You should be able to see the water level in the container bottom, just stop pouring before that level reach the edge of the pour spout.
when you drain the used oil and let it sit for a week, you should be able to see any water that's settled to the bottom.
However! If the use oil is cloudy and has bubbles in it, that's entrained water; to scrap it.

 

[sandman2234]

If you want your tractor to last, don't push the limits of the oil. If you want to push the limits of the oil without hurting the tractor, change the filters more often than recommended, to keep the oil as clean as possible.
Oil typically doesn't go bad, unless you get it hot, but it does pick up a lot of dirt which is hard on the surfaces you are trying to protect.
David from jax

 

[rScotty]

I have reached the 400 hr mark on my Kioti DK4510. The owner's manual says replace the hydraulic oil & filter at 350 hrs; but I have procrastinated. The owner's manual says a complete fluid change requires eleven gallons. I have two 1-gallon jugs of NAPA premium fluid, and about half a 5-gallon bucket of same. It's new fluid, but it's been sitting here for about FOUR YEARS! Knowing that hydraulic fluid is hydroscopic (attracts water), is this old fluid safe to use? Or should I just discard it and buy all new fluid?
I ain't the smartest guy around, and I'm only mildly mechanically inclined; so I'm hoping to tap the vast reservoir of knowledge available on TBN!

The 350 hours are just a guideline. It's going to vary a lot depending on the humidity where you are and how the tractor is used and stored? And that means use and age on the tractor may be different from age on the fluid. How long has that fluid been in there? Not hours, but years.

Here's some of the other things that a mechanic thinks about... I'll just sort of run through the sort of thing I used to do when writing up a work order for a service job.

How is the tractor used & does the owner run the tractor kinda hot or not? Does the hydraulic fluid ever smell like it has run hot? Is this tractor stored in a high humidity barn or outside - sun, shade, or covered? Can you see condensate ageing on the tractor and around the gauges?

The point is that 350 hours is not much wear on good top quality hydraulic fluid like JD Hygard, Chevron, or New Holland GL34. I would have expected longer life out of the Kioti fluid spec. Maybe they do not have the typical two hydraulic filters for the HST models.
In a dry climate like the desert southwest and medium homeowner duty on the oil I'd expect to start thinking about a hydraulic oil change at more like 600/800 hours.

Hydraulic fluid ages a lot more & faster at high temperatures...Commercial manufacturing maintenance schedules rate fluid aging on a scale of "hours at temperature" rather than total running hours or machine time. Of course their fluid does stay dryer than a tractor.

An example of running hot might be running a HST tranny in the deep South on a tractor used for mowing or plowing in the summer heat. Heat is the enemy of hydraulic fluid life. The fluid can handle some water. Generally the more expensive the trans/hydraulic oil is, the more long term additives and capacity for dealing with moisture it should have. I say "should" because there are unfortunatel ynot any ASTM standards comparing trans/hydraulic fluids like there are for engine oil.
So we simply pay the price and hope you are getting the top product. The top brands tend to be what are used by the guys who know - the yellow commercial JD and CAT - both of whom have more to lose.

So heat and water are what hurt fluid. The filter should takes care of wear particles. Most HST trannys have two hydraulic filters. The second filter is special, heavier and more expensive - and is the one that gives extra filtering for the pressure feed to the HST tranny. Eventually

IMPORTANT: Did this tractor get the typical early hour first complete oil & filter service at about 50 hours? Or not? The point of that first service is to get the machining swarf and dirt scrubbed out of the trans/hydraulic system and into the filter - & then replace both. If not, do it now.

Use OEM filters - particularly on a HST. If the tractor is over ten years old, also check the suction pipe or hose for deterioration between the sump and the hydraulic pump.

A bit about moisture in trans/hydraulic fluid. The tractor system is an open center type which is always vented to be open to the atmosphere. That is why the humidity where it is stored and used is important. BTW, check your hydraulic vent to make sure it is open. Mud wasps buiild nest in them. Look for a tube under the seat on top of the rear end housing. A plugged vent will cause rear axle and PTO shaft seal leaks.

If the oil you have is in sealed containers & is a premium oil of a brand name you recognize, I'd say it is still fine after years of sitting.Even if the seal is broken but it has been well capped, I'd just shake it good. After all, oil in a can is always going to be better than oil in an open tractor, and you will still be adding more than 50% newer fluid....That has to be better than whatever sludge is sitting in the tractor now in an open systen which is not sealed at all.

For testing oil, the two traditional oil tests for water are the blotter test -which also shows wear particles. And the other is the "sputter" test which is for water only. Most every traditionally trained mechanic does these himself on the workbench. Commercial oil testing houses use both - Surprisingly few do a water separation/chemical test. The last test house procedure I read was still using the sputter test. Both tests are highly judgemental but cheap to do, i.e. profitable. You can teach yourself both techniques. Read up on them & do them at home.

Anyways, that's probably enough "mechanical think" for right now. Ask away if you have questions. I'm on vacation so might not get back real fast.

Good luck with it,
rScotty

 

[4x4moses]

The 350 hours are just a guideline. It's going to vary a lot depending on the humidity where you are and how the tractor is used and stored? And that means use and age on the tractor may be different from age on the fluid. How long has that fluid been in there? Not hours, but years.

Here's some of the other things that a mechanic thinks about... I'll just sort of run through the sort of thing I used to do when writing up a work order for a service job.

How is the tractor used & does the owner run the tractor kinda hot or not? Does the hydraulic fluid ever smell like it has run hot? Is this tractor stored in a high humidity barn or outside - sun, shade, or covered? Can you see condensate ageing on the tractor and around the gauges?

The point is that 350 hours is not much wear on good top quality hydraulic fluid like JD Hygard, Chevron, or New Holland GL34. I would have expected longer life out of the Kioti fluid spec. Maybe they do not have the typical two hydraulic filters for the HST models.
In a dry climate like the desert southwest and medium homeowner duty on the oil I'd expect to start thinking about a hydraulic oil change at more like 600/800 hours.

Hydraulic fluid ages a lot more & faster at high temperatures...Commercial manufacturing maintenance schedules rate fluid aging on a scale of "hours at temperature" rather than total running hours or machine time. Of course their fluid does stay dryer than a tractor.

An example of running hot might be running a HST tranny in the deep South on a tractor used for mowing or plowing in the summer heat. Heat is the enemy of hydraulic fluid life. The fluid can handle some water. Generally the more expensive the trans/hydraulic oil is, the more long term additives and capacity for dealing with moisture it should have. I say "should" because there are unfortunatel ynot any ASTM standards comparing trans/hydraulic fluids like there are for engine oil.
So we simply pay the price and hope you are getting the top product. The top brands tend to be what are used by the guys who know - the yellow commercial JD and CAT - both of whom have more to lose.

So heat and water are what hurt fluid. The filter should takes care of wear particles. Most HST trannys have two hydraulic filters. The second filter is special, heavier and more expensive - and is the one that gives extra filtering for the pressure feed to the HST tranny. Eventually

IMPORTANT: Did this tractor get the typical early hour first complete oil & filter service at about 50 hours? Or not? The point of that first service is to get the machining swarf and dirt scrubbed out of the trans/hydraulic system and into the filter - & then replace both. If not, do it now.

Use OEM filters - particularly on a HST. If the tractor is over ten years old, also check the suction pipe or hose for deterioration between the sump and the hydraulic pump.

A bit about moisture in trans/hydraulic fluid. The tractor system is an open center type which is always vented to be open to the atmosphere. That is why the humidity where it is stored and used is important. BTW, check your hydraulic vent to make sure it is open. Mud wasps buiild nest in them. Look for a tube under the seat on top of the rear end housing. A plugged vent will cause rear axle and PTO shaft seal leaks.

If the oil you have is in sealed containers & is a premium oil of a brand name you recognize, I'd say it is still fine after years of sitting.Even if the seal is broken but it has been well capped, I'd just shake it good. After all, oil in a can is always going to be better than oil in an open tractor, and you will still be adding more than 50% newer fluid....That has to be better than whatever sludge is sitting in the tractor now in an open systen which is not sealed at all.

For testing oil, the two traditional oil tests for water are the blotter test -which also shows wear particles. And the other is the "sputter" test which is for water only. Most every traditionally trained mechanic does these himself on the workbench. Commercial oil testing houses use both - Surprisingly few do a water separation/chemical test. The last test house procedure I read was still using the sputter test. Both tests are highly judgemental but cheap to do, i.e. profitable. You can teach yourself both techniques. Read up on them & do them at home.

Anyways, that's probably enough "mechanical think" for right now. Ask away if you have questions. I'm on vacation so might not get back real fast.

Good luck with it,
rScotty

Good information to think about. My tractor is a manual not HST; so it only has one hydraulic filter. All filters are genuine Daedong/Kioti. I live in south Mississippi, so it gets very hot and humid here. However, since it's an open station (and I'm soft), I don't run the tractor (or myself) to the point of being super-hot. I recently had a stroke, so I put less than 30 hrs on the machine in the last 13 months. The tractor's never been worked hard, and I keep it parked in an open shed. By the way, my dealer changed the oil, hyrdaulic, air and fuel filters at the 50 hr mark - it was part of the purchase deal. Other than that, I've done all the oil & air filter changes (every year, regardless of hours). The machine was bought, new, in 2018; so the hydraulic fluid is almost 8 years old.

 

[anomad]

All containers have been unsealed, but are in original containers. They're in a cabinet in my unheated/cooled tractor shed. Where would one have the currently-used fluid analyzed?

Hot Shots offers oil and fuel analysis. Predictive Maintenance Oil Analysis | Oil Analysis Kit

I've never had an oil or fuel analysis done, but I like their diesel additives. And they appear to stand behind their products.

My mini-excavator has low hours, and like you, the factory hydraulic oil is several years old now. I want to have it analyzed before opening the wallet for a complete change.