Ideas for improving L3800 for hillside vineyard work?

[kallnojoy]

Long story short, I'm trying to determine how reasonable it is to improve an L3800 for hillside (side hill) work within a reasonable budget ( a few/5K).

In other words, how much can the L3800's (4x4 HST, currently with loaded R1s) stability be improved for side hill work without compromising the tractor or wasting dollars.

I presently hog these hills with it and do about 70% across the slope, 30% up/down, always when dry. They are pretty moderately sloped... never measured but easily 20% or > in portions.

If I put in grapes, all work will be side hill though an offsetting factor is that I would groom the hill sides prior to planting, eliminating as many irregularities as possible.

My main concern would be spraying chores and I won't always have the luxury of waiting for things to dry out... would either be a hitch mounted or towed rig.

Other tasks like mowing or any ground engagement work can normally by delayed until things have dried out.

A few ideas I was considering:

1. Lower CG by changing out front/rear wheels/tires to smaller diameter (while maintaining correct ratio since 4x4). Would need help calculating size options and or is it feasible to change gear ratio if need be.
2. Widen stance - 3" wheel spacers on each rear wheel
3. Widen stance - wider rear wheel/tire profile than existing R1s but with similar aggressive tread
4. Add weight - loaded tires, wheel weights, front suitcase weights, fat (short) operator, other? I keep looking at the FELs "subframe" and can't help but think there must be a way to leverage it for some type of low ballast mount.
5. reduce pivot travel of front axle? If that's realistic, would it then be worth while to either widen (or spacers) or load the front tires as well?

And the potentially dumbest, partially formed, half-baked, thought of this while typing the above kinda of idea....
6. if the FEL was on... and the bucket were modified with a wheel on each corner, and the bucket loaded to near lift capacity with a stable ballast... and in the FLOAT position so that the added wheels maintained contact with the ground... would it aid lateral stability, acting as an articulated extension? confused2:

Other suggestions welcomed.

And yes, I'll buy a purpose built machine if necessary.

This notion of adapting the L3800 was inspired in part by "Flusher"'s sexy orchard tractor in this thread: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/buying-pricing-comparisons/115967-help-selecting-tractor-steep-brush-6.html

 

[nybirdman]

I think some one on this forum added rear duals to a small Kubota.That may be your easiest solution.For sure any weight added will help lower the center of gravity,I.E.loaded tires/wheel weights.I don't know if the wheeled FEL idea is good or not.
Another note;by adding wheel spacers you add a little stress on the bearings

 

[PapaPerk]

Not a fan of the loader idea.

To make a tractor stable it must be wide and low. Best to start with a tractor that's wide and low to begin with. Then make wider and lower! Lol

Around here many tractor run rear duals with wheels pushed out all the way. Front and rear. Also need 4wd of course. I'd weight tires only to axle center line... Only rear tires. Then you also may add suit case weights to rear axle or rear of chassis... Low.

The tractor pictured above is a perfect example of a hill tractor.

Also you don't want to lock front pivot. Tractor will be more unstable and loose traction.

 

[tungularafishcamp]

I put duals both front and rear on my L2800 for flotation on the beach. The sidehill stability was a huge side benefit that was worth the cost of the extra tires n rims alone as I am almost never on the flat although I am creating more
I got my rears from unverferth.com but had to make my fronts for it, although just for stability all you would need are the rears.

 

[RaydaKub]

I think locking the front pivot would be a big mistake. If the front goes over a hump, it will have to lift the other front up in the air or the same side rear. Give weights and fluid, most likely the front. But that is bound to cause more twist on the tractor frame no matter how it is applied. The idea of using the fel with outboard wheels is rather unique, but unless it is in a locked position, it isn't going to help much. It's going to have to be float unless you have absolutely angular hills. Any weight out front of the wheels is removing weight from the wide, stable rear and putting it on the floppy front end.

I love the duals idea. You move the pivot point out another foot or more and add a few hundred pounds on the top side with fluid in the far outside.

 

[Sammy3700]

Rick, Do you by chance have any pictures? If not do you have r-4 or r-1 tires? I would like to have duals on my 3700.

 

[Chilly807]

I think you're better off to look for a different tractor. The L series are relatively high and narrow to begin with, mine is no treat on a side hill. I'm pretty sure Kubota doesn't recommend duals on the L3800. It says in my owner's manual that the L3400 isn't approved for dual wheels either.

Sean

 

[tungularafishcamp]

I just went and snapped these, if you do a search on my posts you can see other pics I have taken of them. I filled the inner tire originally with rv anitfreeze but have since drained it out as I didnt need the extra weight and as I transport the tractor in a skiff at times the weight is a real penalty. I definitely need a bigger tractor and have probably over worked this one but as this is as big a one I can fit on my boat this is what I have. I did develop some cracks on the inner wheel disc on the rear wheel and if you look carefully you can see where I welded in a reinforcing disc, only had the problem on one side and I have still not gotten around to welding in the disc for the other side even tho it has been sitting there waiting for a couple years, havent needed it. It was not recommended to put duals on this tractor btw, but it would be worthless to me without them and I have no regrets doing it.

 

[1bush2hog]

20 percent is steep. Go slow bro. Go slow. A pull behind spray can go sideways fast and then so will you

 

[kallnojoy]

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions so far.

I was initially considering duals, and still may, but had a few concerns:

- Overall width may be too wide for the planned row spacing
- void warranty at best and at worst break stuff (or wear prematurely)
- doesn't address the height of the tractor
- reduction in traction

My first inclination is still the low/heavy/wide idea of:

lower the tractor by going with smaller diameter wheels & tires to get the ride height down.

Ideally at the same time going with a wider tire profile and/or spacers to increase the rear footprint.

Pack on as much weight wherever it can be done safely and be of help.

I just don't know how much I can reduce the tire sizes and if that change would be of enough magnitude to be worth the effort.

 

[kallnojoy]

20 percent is steep. Go slow bro. Go slow. A pull behind spray can go sideways fast and then so will you

I hear you and agree. I have no plans to go cowboy and risk a rollover. I want a very wide margin of safety.

 

[lreops]

I would think that if you built a Ballast Box, like the one pictured, it would solve your lowering the CG. I built one similar for my L235. Formed out the box, used 9½ 80 lb bags of concrete for an estimated weight of 900 lbs. Just raise it a few inches and nothing is going to, of course, within reason, lay it over. Also, will help with the stress on the front axle, especially with a FEL.

The resolution might not be to good as I had to enlarge.


Ron

 

[RickB]

I would think that if you built a Ballast Box, like the one pictured, it would solve your lowering the CG. I built one similar for my L235. Formed out the box, used 9½ 80 lb bags of concrete for an estimated weight of 900 lbs. Just raise it a few inches and nothing is going to, of course, within reason, lay it over. Also, will help with the stress on the front axle, especially with a FEL.

The resolution might not be to good as I had to enlarge.
View attachment 287832

Ron

Renders the tractor completely useless for attaching to a drawn or mounted sprayer.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

First thought on this is your making this too complicated. Plant the rows up and down the hill instead of across the slope. Even if the rows don't line up for the ideal sun exposure you will still have plenty of sunlight for ripening and drying.

Second thought, if you do decide to plant across the slope widen the rows to suit your tractor. It will be a lot easier to plant your rows wider and plant the vines a little closer then to fight with your tractor trying to make it more stable while staying narrow.

Third thought, avoid the 3pt mounted sprayer. Yes, they are great for small vineyards but they add a lot of weight behind you and on steep slopes can be a huge hazzard as it will be very easy for the front tires to come off the ground with the fluid sloshing around in the tank with a small, light tractor. A trailed sprayer is a little more of a hassle for turning but it gives you more capacity and is easier on the tractor.

How many acres are you looking at planting? What variety? Row spacing? It may make sense to look for a true vineyard tractor. Something designed narrow and low to the ground. I just saw two Kubota M8200 Narrows on craigslist. Both had FWA and a front 3pt system. The cab model was under $17k and the open station was under $11k. Hour wise wasn't terrible but for someone with a small vineyard a dedicated tractor to leave hooked to the sprayer would be handy and FWA would be very helpful dealing with the slope. The front lift would allow you to hook a weight box on there to keep.

If your stuck on making your tractor work then going with the smaller tires would help as would adding liquid and steel weights to the tractor tires, front end and if needed even under the tractor (a heavy belly plate basically). As long as you can keep your tractor within your required width then go for it.

 

[lreops]

Renders the tractor completely useless for attaching to a drawn or mounted sprayer.

Are these towed implements or need the 3pt? If, by chance, they are towed, the hook up or hitch could be on the back side, attached to the draw bar that is connected to the 3pt when formed. Just throwing some ideas around.

Ron

 

[Sammy3700]

Thanks for the picture Rick. Those rears look tuff.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Are these towed implements or need the 3pt? If, by chance, they are towed, the hook up or hitch could be on the back side, attached to the draw bar that is connected to the 3pt when formed. Just throwing some ideas around.

Ron

I wouldn't want to move the hitch point back on towed implements when working on steep hills, especially a sprayer as the liquid can really push a light tractor around when it gets sloshing in the tank.

 

[Bluegill2]

Set rear tires out all the way and load them.

Add rear wheel weights,

Add 1000lb+/- ballast to 3pth.

Add suitcase weights to front.

Or buy a wider, lower, heavier tractor.

 

[kallnojoy]

I would think that if you built a Ballast Box, like the one pictured, it would solve your lowering the CG. I built one similar for my L235. Formed out the box, used 9½ 80 lb bags of concrete for an estimated weight of 900 lbs. Just raise it a few inches and nothing is going to, of course, within reason, lay it over. Also, will help with the stress on the front axle, especially with a FEL.

The resolution might not be to good as I had to enlarge.
View attachment 287832

Ron

That would be the ticket except for the types of attachments I'll be using.

 

[kallnojoy]

First thought on this is your making this too complicated. Plant the rows up and down the hill instead of across the slope. Even if the rows don't line up for the ideal sun exposure you will still have plenty of sunlight for ripening and drying.

Second thought, if you do decide to plant across the slope widen the rows to suit your tractor. It will be a lot easier to plant your rows wider and plant the vines a little closer then to fight with your tractor trying to make it more stable while staying narrow.

Third thought, avoid the 3pt mounted sprayer. Yes, they are great for small vineyards but they add a lot of weight behind you and on steep slopes can be a huge hazzard as it will be very easy for the front tires to come off the ground with the fluid sloshing around in the tank with a small, light tractor. A trailed sprayer is a little more of a hassle for turning but it gives you more capacity and is easier on the tractor.

How many acres are you looking at planting? What variety? Row spacing? It may make sense to look for a true vineyard tractor. Something designed narrow and low to the ground. I just saw two Kubota M8200 Narrows on craigslist. Both had FWA and a front 3pt system. The cab model was under $17k and the open station was under $11k. Hour wise wasn't terrible but for someone with a small vineyard a dedicated tractor to leave hooked to the sprayer would be handy and FWA would be very helpful dealing with the slope. The front lift would allow you to hook a weight box on there to keep.

If your stuck on making your tractor work then going with the smaller tires would help as would adding liquid and steel weights to the tractor tires, front end and if needed even under the tractor (a heavy belly plate basically). As long as you can keep your tractor within your required width then go for it.

I admittedly have a penchant for making things too complicated!

To your points - running the rows up/down vs sidehill was considered but isn't very practical given the lay of the land - it would exponentially increase the # of rows which would drive up not just initial trellis costs but all of the ongoing labor. ex: 300' rows vs 90' rows. Other considerations exist of course like sun exposure, erosion, etc. That said, I may end up doing one or two blocks up/down if I'm not comfortable with the safety margin.

Your second point (row width) is where I am now, planning. Ideally I would like to go 8', as it is optimal for most varieties considered for our site, but may end up at 10' given the slope and probable tractor width.

As for the type of sprayer - will likely end up with a towed airblast or similar, but can't rule out a 3pt for smaller jobs or during startup.

We're looking at 8-10 acres max ultimately and will likely only do 1-2 next year initially to start. So I do have the time to 'leverage into' a more appropriate model once we ramp up scale.

The belly plate is a great idea... not just the added weight but if I do lower it, the extra protection would be welcomed.

Thanks again all for the suggestions.