Idiot light

[Soundguy]

Gauge may not be super accurate.. but 8 psi.. is 8 psi.. etc.

I think I'dd pull main sheels and check wear on the crank and shells.. and decide from there about the fullover haul or not.. a 16$ UOA may be telling as well.. though if it is a recent oil change.. most of the evidence ( wear metals ) may have gone with the old oil.

for sure the problem needs to be addressed as to why it's got no oil pressure.. hopefully it will be cheaper than quoted.

soundguy

 

[irwin]

My point is closer to: if it had 8psi ..yes it's very low..but it's enough to lube rod, main and cam bearings to minimize damage. There is a difference between no oil pressure and low oil pressure. No o/p means a useless engine, low o/p could mean a lot less critical damage.

I'd do this myself, drop the oil pan..be easy to see if the pick-up is plugged up..if not drop a rod bearing cap and see what the bearing looks like..if things aren't obvious you could then button it up-refill with oil and bring it to a repair shop. Most likely you'd spent an afternoon doing that. Might save you serious money..if not you've get some experience...All this after you try to resolve the issue with seller/GM etc.

 

[Soundguy]

I think we were agreeing with each other.. .. if there was any positive psi.. and not much work was done. the engine might not be ruined.. dropping caps and checking bearings will be easy and very telltale..

striations, scoring, and heat marks will be obvious.

soundguy

 

[gemini5362]

I would definetly not drop the oil pan myself. By all means go to the general manager and tell him or her what happened. See what you can work out with them. If the GM wont make good then you should go to small claims court. Tell the judge exactly what you have told us that the sales person told there was absolutely nothing wrong with that tractor. If you have another shop give an estimate of what is wrong with it take that to the judge. If you take the oil pan off the sales person can make the statement it was working fine when you bought it and he has no idea what damage you caused while the oil pan was off. Having a qualified service person take the pan off for troubleshooting purposes is much different than doing it yourself. I would not do anything to the tractor your self until after you have this issue settled.

 

[patrick_g]

I would definetly not drop the oil pan myself. By all means go to the general manager and tell him or her what happened. See what you can work out with them. If the GM wont make good then you should go to small claims court. Tell the judge exactly what you have told us that the sales person told there was absolutely nothing wrong with that tractor. If you have another shop give an estimate of what is wrong with it take that to the judge. If you take the oil pan off the sales person can make the statement it was working fine when you bought it and he has no idea what damage you caused while the oil pan was off. Having a qualified service person take the pan off for troubleshooting purposes is much different than doing it yourself. I would not do anything to the tractor your self until after you have this issue settled.

Once again I find myself in agreement with Gemini.

GOOD ADVICE.

You were played for a sucker and need to take some proactive steps to even the score a bit. If they said there is nothing wrong with the tractor they are tacitly claiming knowledge, and giving an expert opinion of persons experienced in the business and should stand behind their representation. On the other hand if they said they know of nothing wrong with the tractor they are claiming ignorance and that is different. Of course if they are experienced professionals the claim of ignorance may be a bit shaky.

The sleaze factor seems to be very high on the part of the seller and with any degree of fairness on the part of a judge you should get a reasonable degree of satisfaction. You may find the sleazeballs are more inclined to try to "cost share" with you rather than come under a bright light of scrutiny in court.

Beware, of rushing to judgment and accepting any "deals" to settle out of court. Settling out of court is OK if and only if you get what is fairly coming to you. It is likely they are well practiced in this game and will offer to share a cost so inflated by them that your half may still give them a profit, taking you for a "tractor ride" a second time while pretending to be doing you a favor.

You need to be flexible. Remember if a deal seems to good to be true it just may be too good to be true. So along these lines and presenting flexible alternatives you should consider offering to settle for their refunding 100% of the purchase price and your returning the tractor in lieu of repairing the ractor such that it is as good as their expert claims made prior to money changing hands. Let them choose from among: 1. take tractor back and refund 100%, 2. fix the tractor to the condition represented prior to sale, or going to court and taking their chances.

I am NOT A LAWYER, did not stay in a Holiday Inn recently, and don't practice arbitration professionally BUT I am not a stranger to certain legal proceedings which I have observed. A word of advice: Don't be too one sided in court. Ask for a fair result that is fair to all parties, given the circumstances.

Good luck, man. I hope you get a reasonable resolution of your situation.

Pat

 

[irwin]

Most likely you'd spent an afternoon doing that. Might save you serious money..if not you've get some experience...All this after you try to resolve the issue with seller/GM etc.

I would definetly not drop the oil pan myself. By all means go to the general manager and tell him or her what happened. See what you can work out with them. If the GM wont make good then you should go to small claims court. Tell the judge exactly what you have told us that the sales person told there was absolutely nothing wrong with that tractor. If you have another shop give an estimate of what is wrong with it take that to the judge. If you take the oil pan off the sales person can make the statement it was working fine when you bought it and he has no idea what damage you caused while the oil pan was off. Having a qualified service person take the pan off for troubleshooting purposes is much different than doing it yourself. I would not do anything to the tractor your self until after you have this issue settled.

I don't think anyone suggested you do anything until you resolve the responsibility question.....However if it came down to it, and I had to eat the problem on a machine I bought "as is" from an individual (I assume this is the case?...if the sale wasn't an "as is" sale that's another issue)..and the threat of litigation got you nowhere.... I'd do it myself rather than pay more than a token amount. Just my 2 cents

When you put this into the court system it could take way too long for me..I'd want my tractor running not rotting. Once again "just my 2 cents"

 

[MLD]

Idiot light update:

It's 9:00 am monday morning and I've just made an appointment with the general manager of all the tractor stores in this chain for a face to face as soon as I can get there.

I have little faith that something will be done but I'm going through the motions anyway. I'm really hoping to get some reduction in the repair price and that the weight of this site and at last count the 65 replies and 2915 views will make a difference.

I'll be reporting back as soon as something concrete is known.

MLD the "Angry Idiot"

 

[Soundguy]

Good luck. Sleazy dealers just don't belong..

soundguy

 

[greggh]

Good luck and hopfully it is not the dealership, just one individual, and it will be made right.

 

[Soundguy]

The manager is a representative of the dealership.. it reflects badly on the entire organization and parent company when people pull this stuff.

soundguy

 

[RobJ]

Idiot Light Update:
It was a private sale by the manager of a dealership. The tractor was parked at the dealership and we used the dealerships office to make our deal.

I think many miss this point. You can try and suck the dealership into the mess, it might work. But by your own admission, it was a private deal and the tractor was just parked at the dealership. It could have been parked there because that's where it was worked on. By talking to the GM dude, he might just say, "not my deal, I'll tell Joe-Blow not to do that again".

Also you admit that it ran for a while, not sure how long(didn't read back). If it ran for 2 hours and then the light came on, then that could very well be when the failure ocurred.

I'm not letting the other guy off the hook, but if you go to court some of this stuff is probably going to come up. A hand shake deal (IMO), is an as-is deal. If I sell something to someone, the longer it is the more I'm detached from it. But I'm also the same way in reverse, the longer it has been since I bought something, the more detached I get from the previous owner.

And all this talk about sharing costs to fix, etc. If I went to all this trouble, I think I would keep my requests clear and simple. I want my $2500 back!

On the mechanical side, as someone else mentioned, low pressure, high volume is not a bad thing. Also of the engines I rebuilt when I was a mechanic, the rod bearing showed the bad wear first. Smaller load surface, extra forces, who knows, just what I saw.

And MLD you are being way to hard on yourself man. I don't see that you did anything wrong. Life happens!!

good Luck,
Rob

 

[gemini5362]

I think many miss this point. You can try and suck the dealership into the mess, it might work. But by your own admission, it was a private deal and the tractor was just parked at the dealership. It could have been parked there because that's where it was worked on. By talking to the GM dude, he might just say, "not my deal, I'll tell Joe-Blow not to do that again".

Also you admit that it ran for a while, not sure how long(didn't read back). If it ran for 2 hours and then the light came on, then that could very well be when the failure ocurred.

I'm not letting the other guy off the hook, but if you go to court some of this stuff is probably going to come up. A hand shake deal (IMO), is an as-is deal. If I sell something to someone, the longer it is the more I'm detached from it. But I'm also the same way in reverse, the longer it has been since I bought something, the more detached I get from the previous owner.

And all this talk about sharing costs to fix, etc. If I went to all this trouble, I think I would keep my requests clear and simple. I want my $2500 back!

On the mechanical side, as someone else mentioned, low pressure, high volume is not a bad thing. Also of the engines I rebuilt when I was a mechanic, the rod bearing showed the bad wear first. Smaller load surface, extra forces, who knows, just what I saw.

And MLD you are being way to hard on yourself man. I don't see that you did anything wrong. Life happens!!

good Luck,
Rob

Rob I am going to disagree with you. If he had bought it from the owner in a field I think you would be perfectly correct, although I still would take him to small claims court. The salesman could have told him that he had no knowledge about the tractor that it was just there as a favor and it is as is. The salesman in order to make the sale gave an implied warranty when he repeatedly told the poster that there was nothing wrong with the tractor. One thing I would be curious about is the statement that they used the dealers office to make the sale. did the poster get a bill of sale from the dealership and what paperwork did he get with the tractor.

 

[RobJ]

Rob I am going to disagree with you. If he had bought it from the owner in a field I think you would be perfectly correct, although I still would take him to small claims court. The salesman could have told him that he had no knowledge about the tractor that it was just there as a favor and it is as is. The salesman in order to make the sale gave an implied warranty when he repeatedly told the poster that there was nothing wrong with the tractor. One thing I would be curious about is the statement that they used the dealers office to make the sale. did the poster get a bill of sale from the dealership and what paperwork did he get with the tractor.

That's cool, can't always agree!!

Well that's what the courts are for. The previous owner can parade in a bunch of people saying it ran fine, etc. If the light never came on before then there is no way for anyone to know whats going on inside.

But if the guy says its a good tractor, let him buy it back and walk.

 

[patrick_g]

That's cool, can't always agree!!

Well that's what the courts are for. The previous owner can parade in a bunch of people saying it ran fine, etc. If the light never came on before then there is no way for anyone to know whats going on inside.

But if the guy says its a good tractor, let him buy it back and walk.

I still agree as I suggested a few posts back that one of the desireable alternatives was unwind the deal, give back the tractor and get the $ back. Failing that, a free repair or healthy discount on a repair would be a good alternative.

Temporarily switching off emotion, and such, lets consider what the tractor is really worth if it was running right with good oil pressure. If you still wanted the tractor (noting it is not the only tractor in the world) it would be reasonable to pay up to the difference between the original price and a reasonable price for a tractor of that age that was actually as represented.

Simplified example:

paid 1000 for tractor claimed to be OK
if actually OK, tractor is worth 1500
I would not consider paying much more than 500 to get it into the shape originally claimed.

If total cost to me to own tractor brought up to claimed condition exceeds a reasonable market value for the tractor then I'd be looknig for a different tractor.

Is this a case where a little larceny or greed on the part of the buyer (Oh wow what a great deal below market value!!!!) was used by the unscrupulous slime seller to "trick" the buyer. Maybe, maybe not but if so it is a classical case of standard operating practice for "FINANCE IT HERE" used car lots .

Was the seller wearing a Hawaiian shirt, white belt, or strange shoes?

Pat

 

[gemini5362]

That's cool, can't always agree!!

Well that's what the courts are for. The previous owner can parade in a bunch of people saying it ran fine, etc. If the light never came on before then there is no way for anyone to know whats going on inside.

But if the guy says its a good tractor, let him buy it back and walk.

That is a great solution and I hope it happens. Here is what I suspect will happen. The poster will say buy it back. The seller will say there was nothing wrong with it when I put it on the lot. The dealer will say that We only started it for potential buyers. I am anticipating no one will stand up and say that they will take the responsibility for what happened. I would talk with all the parties involved if I was the buyer ( previous owner, dealership etc.) Then if nothing gets done about the problem. Have the independent dealer troubleshoot the problem and give you a detailed report. ( yeah it costs money but will pay off if you go to court) A independent mechanic will be able to give an educated guess if it is just wear and tear or something that happened after the purchase. Then take that report back to the dealer and say do we settle this now reasonably or do I file a lawsuit. (provided that the independent report shows it was something that happened pre purchase. ) The original purchaser needs to document everything. That is how I got the automotive garage to pay me when I sued. I let them try to fix the problem three times and then had them write the mileage on the ticket when I paid it. I took the truck to another garage had them write the mileage down when I got there. So that i could prove I had not been driving the truck between garage visits. When the second garage fixed the problem and it was an improper repair by the first garage I filed my small claims court action and included all the documentation with it. The first garage sent me a check for the entire amount that I was owed.

 

[gemini5362]

I still agree as I suggested a few posts back that one of the desireable alternatives was unwind the deal, give back the tractor and get the $ back. Failing that, a free repair or healthy discount on a repair would be a good alternative.

Temporarily switching off emotion, and such, lets consider what the tractor is really worth if it was running right with good oil pressure. If you still wanted the tractor (noting it is not the only tractor in the world) it would be reasonable to pay up to the difference between the original price and a reasonable price for a tractor of that age that was actually as represented.

Simplified example:

paid 1000 for tractor claimed to be OK
if actually OK, tractor is worth 1500
I would not consider paying much more than 500 to get it into the shape originally claimed.

If total cost to me to own tractor brought up to claimed condition exceeds a reasonable market value for the tractor then I'd be looknig for a different tractor.

Is this a case where a little larceny or greed on the part of the buyer (Oh wow what a great deal below market value!!!!) was used by the unscrupulous slime seller to "trick" the buyer. Maybe, maybe not but if so it is a classical case of standard operating practice for "FINANCE IT HERE" used car lots .

Was the seller wearing a Hawaiian shirt, white belt, or strange shoes?

Pat

I agree with you 100 per cent unfortuneatly I will be pleasantly suprised if any of the above happens without legal action. If things were done as the poster listed them I get the feeling the salesperson new that there was some problems. Anyone that will deliberately sell you damaged merchandise without disclosing that fact is not going to voluntarily resolve the problem i suspect. I have not seen any information about the relationship of the seller to the dealership. Was it a customer that they were selling it for or was it one of the mechanics or perhaps the sellers own personal tractor.

 

[irwin]

Idiot light update:

It's 9:00 am monday morning and I've just made an appointment with the general manager of all the tractor stores in this chain for a face to face as soon as I can get there.

I have little faith that something will be done but I'm going through the motions anyway. I'm really hoping to get some reduction in the repair price and that the weight of this site and at last count the 65 replies and 2915 views will make a difference.

I'll be reporting back as soon as something concrete is known.

MLD the "Angry Idiot"

I wish you the best in this, hopefully the GM is an honorable man who won't allow this to go any further.
If this was my shop and I found out someone in my employment was selling known problems (using my building) and lying about it, steps would be taken...... but I found out long ago..not everyone thinks like I do.

The manager is a representative of the dealership.. it reflects badly on the entire organization and parent company when people pull this stuff.

soundguy

We agree again.

 

[MLD]

Idiot light update:

Gentlemen: Robj, Patrick,Gemini,Irwin,Bladagan and every one else that has contributed to this post thank you. As of this writing the problem has been solved and the outcome is my choice.

The Gm indeed is an honorable man, and was very judicious in both his dealings with me and defending his employee. He was in a difficult position being more or less blind sided by a problem he did not create. He also brought up some excellent points in the defense of his employee that I had not considered. Mainly that if the seller knew that it had low pressure and the idiot light was the tell tale why not disable the light entirely? He also spent some time smoothing the feathers of this ruffled bird and showing me around the new tractors as I had asked about buying new in our conversations.

On the other hand the story told to the GM of the history, time line of work done on the tractor before my purchase and reason for the sale did not exactly tally with what I remembered. But I'm not as sharp as maybe I once was so I'll just let it go.

The Gm Called me back probably within an hour and a half with the solution that (1) I could have a full refund, or (2) his ace mechanic the best they had with thirty years experience would do the fix or (3) I could put the purchase price towards a new tractor.

You really can't do better than that and I am satisfied. I asked him if I could give him my answer tuesday morning and he agreed.

After this experience of trying to buy used and being un-mechanical I think buying new is the way I should go. I'm great at maintenance and enjoy the putter but something serious is another career and the one I have now is career enough.

The reason to get the tractor is not the satisfaction in the fixing, although what little fix i can do is gratifying, it's really to get out in the my woods and get as much physical labor as possible while accomplishing something.

So I'm going to ask for the refund and hope that, as the GM said, that he'll fix the B7100 in question properly then offer it for sale so it won't be sold as is to another"Idiot" as I feared.

I've enjoyed all your comments and look forward to your opinions on the next post "What tractor I should purchase"? New Holland. kubota or John Deer.

Thank you for your patience.

"Idiota Contenta"

 

[mjncad]

Is this a case where a little larceny or greed on the part of the buyer (Oh wow what a great deal below market value!!!!) was used by the unscrupulous slime seller to "trick" the buyer. Maybe, maybe not but if so it is a classical case of standard operating practice for "FINANCE IT HERE" used car lots .

Was the seller wearing a Hawaiian shirt, white belt, or strange shoes?

Pat

The seller sounds like a Wall Street wannabe.

I used to work with a guy whose sideline business was to buy "Smashers" (his term) at Colorado auto auctions, fix them up (supposedly), hold onto them long enough to launder the title in his native Texas to get the "Salvage" designation removed, and then sell them to unsuspecting people.

His name is Charles T. (last name withheld), and he is known as "Chop Shop Charlie." I haven't seen this clown in over 10-years, and I can only hope he got to spend some time in the slammer for his nonsense.

 

[gemini5362]

Idiot light update:

Gentlemen: Robj, Patrick,Gemini,Irwin,Bladagan and every one else that has contributed to this post thank you. As of this writing the problem has been solved and the outcome is my choice.

The Gm indeed is an honorable man, and was very judicious in both his dealings with me and defending his employee. He was in a difficult position being more or less blind sided by a problem he did not create. He also brought up some excellent points in the defense of his employee that I had not considered. Mainly that if the seller knew that it had low pressure and the idiot light was the tell tale why not disable the light entirely? He also spent some time smoothing the feathers of this ruffled bird and showing me around the new tractors as I had asked about buying new in our conversations.

On the other hand the story told to the GM of the history, time line of work done on the tractor before my purchase and reason for the sale did not exactly tally with what I remembered. But I'm not as sharp as maybe I once was so I'll just let it go.

The Gm Called me back probably within an hour and a half with the solution that (1) I could have a full refund, or (2) his ace mechanic the best they had with thirty years experience would do the fix or (3) I could put the purchase price towards a new tractor.

You really can't do better than that and I am satisfied. I asked him if I could give him my answer tuesday morning and he agreed.

After this experience of trying to buy used and being un-mechanical I think buying new is the way I should go. I'm great at maintenance and enjoy the putter but something serious is another career and the one I have now is career enough.

The reason to get the tractor is not the satisfaction in the fixing, although what little fix i can do is gratifying, it's really to get out in the my woods and get as much physical labor as possible while accomplishing something.

So I'm going to ask for the refund and hope that, as the GM said, that he'll fix the B7100 in question properly then offer it for sale so it won't be sold as is to another"Idiot" as I feared.

I've enjoyed all your comments and look forward to your opinions on the next post "What tractor I should purchase"? New Holland. kubota or John Deer.

Thank you for your patience.

"Idiota Contenta"

Well I am very pleasantly suprised. I am glad things worked out for you