Idiot light

[mjncad]

I took a look at your portfolio MLD, and you do good work. One of my wife's nephews is an animator in Oregon, and her niece is an artist.

I interviewed a geotechnical/structural engineering firm today to get a feel for the company's work for the house we hope to build within the next few years. Overall the company made a decent impression on me; but the thing that bothered me was the principal of the company that I talked with had a habit of avoiding direct eye contact.

Then I stopped in at trailer dealer, and the owner seemed only half interested in talkking with me. It wasn't like he had a lot to do as I was the only customer in the joint at the time.

Last I stopped in the next closest Deere dealer to our property to get a feel for the dealership. The sales gal was relatively knowledgable on the 4720 cab tractor I looked at, except she didn't know what Top-n-Tilt was, or the difference between the CX and X series loaders. I've seen worse salesmen who had no clue about the product they were trying to sell me.

Unfortunately the car and related sales business has developed a bad habit of lying to customers to make a sale instead of fostering long term relationships.

 

[Blagadan]

Have you discussed the problem with the guy you bought the tractor from MLD?
If the tractor is "dealer maintained" and sold privately by the manager of the dealership, the manager is only the middle man. I wonder was the tractor maintained by the dealership you bought it from?

I have seen similar things over here. A guy goes into his buddys dealership and ask his dealer buddy to sell a car for him. Most cases, the dealer will sell that car as is, no warranty given as the vehicle is being sold privately on behalf of the owner...

Does this describe your situation?

If it were me, I would STILL go back to the dealership with this. If you have a decent honest tractor dealer who is interested in your custom down the road, he may stand over it just to keep you sweet. If not, go to another kubota dealer, tell him just how badly you've been treated by the first dealer and you are looking for honest to goodness patriotic american service (wave a flag if you must)... That dealer might help you out, to win your custom...
I hope mj's above description of dealers habits is not an epidemic all over the US.

I still stand over what I said earlier in this thread, DONT WORRY ABOUT IT! It can be fixed, its only a machine. Some people can get worked up over stuff like this and I hate to see that happen. There is most likely a simple fix to your problem.

I would hate to think the owner of the tractor offered this machine up for sale knowing it had a problem but chose to withhold that information.... that is the lowest of the low if you ask me.

The B7100 I bought last year has blow by, (excessive gasses blowing from the crankcase breather, most likely due to engine wear). Due to inexperience, I didnt realise this until after I bought it. I dont know if the seller knew it had this problem when he was selling it to me. I havent given it much thought really, lifes too short.
I may have to recondition the engine just to get the problem resolved but I am putting a positive spin on it... I didnt buy a brand new €20,000 tractor... I bought a 20+ year old tractor for very little money. Obviously a 20+ year old tractor has a higher risk of developing mechanical problems somewhere down the line.... This has to be expected.

At the moment, my bota is still doing tremendous work around my place so I am not in a hurry to tear it down... I still believe you will be delighted with your 7100 when you get the oil problem resolved.

I wish you luck (Irish luck at that) in resolving your problem.

B

 

[crashz]

You've probably got a 50/50 chance of the manager actually knowing about the problem. I would go in and talk to the guy about it. Tell him the problem and how you diagnosed it. You'll get either one of two answers:

- I'm sorry, let see what we can do to fix it
or
- Its your problem now pal.

If he goes with the first, work with him on it and remember its a used tractor. Try to come up with a reasonable solution that is fair to both of you. Like split the cost of repair at the dealership or something.

If he goes with the second answer, then he knew there was a problem. Get creative here. Personally, my first reaction would be to shove the tractor up his .... you get the point.

 

[tallyho8]

Tallyho8:
This maybe unbelievable but when you referred to this: pain in the ***, nothin' but problems, haven't even used it yet kubota I had a twinge of resentment at the term "dog" that you used to describe my tractor. I'm an Idiot and a sap.
The second part of your reply is right on the button and my thoughts exactly, so stay tuned for more updates probably in a week or so.
MLD

I apologize for the reference but I was just speaking in generalizations and I am not proficient enough in my writings to be as subtle as I should be in some situations.

 

[patrick_g]

Pressure is pressure... there is no 'flow' in the sender.. so once any air voids are removed in the 'T' line to the gauge.. both the sender and the gauge should 'see' the same pressure.

soundguy

Air in the line will be compressed to the same pressure as oil and SHOULD NOT cause a different reading. Bleed it if it makes you feel better but not because it is required. Don't believe it? What would prevent the air from compressing to the same pressure as the oil, MAGIC?

Pat

 

[furnacebrook]

I checked the IT book that I have for my B7100 and the oil pressure range for checking the oil pump is between 28 and 64 PSI. Now if that oil sending unit does not come on until I believe someone wrote 7 pounds or less than you have sufficent oil pressure according to the factory. The sending unit is working unless it is a bad one which we all know can happen in new parts sometime. Now your friend that put his thumb over the outlet on the tee and you said he could pretty much hold the oil back. Well just for the **** of it I went into my shop and turned the regulator down on my air compessor to 28 or 30 pounds, took the air nozzle removed the end put my thumb on it and pressed the trigger. I could hardly tell that there was any pressure coming out. I could certainly hold it back so, I kept turning it up. It was not until I got to about 55 PSI that I would say it was starting to push my thumb off pretty good. Enough that if it was oil I would have gotten sprayed if I tried to hold it back on an engine. What I'm trying to say is I would not put much faith in the thumb test on your tee. Use the new sending unit and if the oil light does not come on then your within the pressure range of the factory setting. I'm sure your tractor does not have the pressure of a new one anymore than mine does with their age factored in. Even if it is at 28PSI you would not think there was any pressure because it feels like nothing at all but you still have enough oil pressure, albiet on the low end. If it does not sound like a can of loose bolts banging around and knocking then your engine is probably Ok. I just can't believe you would not hear it if the engine was not getting oil pressure.........especially in a diesel.
Hope this helps, Scott

 

[irwin]

Irwin:
To answer your question, no, we did not wait for the light to come on. When we took off the gauge we had a direct line to the engine and my buddy who knows about such things said shut it down because the light pressure from his finger would almost stop the flow of oil.

MLD

The sending unit is working unless it is a bad one which we all know can happen in new parts sometime. Now your friend that put his thumb over the outlet on the tee and you said he could pretty much hold the oil back. Well just for the **** of it I went into my shop and turned the regulator down on my air compessor to 28 or 30 pounds, took the air nozzle removed the end put my thumb on it and pressed the trigger. I could hardly tell that there was any pressure coming out. I could certainly hold it back so, I kept turning it up. It was not until I got to about 55 PSI that I would say it was starting to push my thumb off pretty good. , Scott

Although air and oil have very different properties....what was said has merit.

What I was getting at is, at my shop, over the last few decades, I've run into many situation where the tests were interferring with the diagnosis...
I agree with furnacebrook...just to see what happens.. get the tee off the line and run it with the new sender..let's see what happens.

Recently one of my techs was scratching his head over an electrical problem, ..his test showed the switch as good, so he went on. Before I let him rip out a harness to isolate the short, I went over the tests with him..he was right the test showed the switch good..I tested it and it was bad..well I pushed the contact one way when tested, he was pushing the lead of his meter the other...it was a broken contact in the connector(the connector is part of the switch)..it shorted when pushed one way and functioned normally when pushed the other. Replace switch.. all good...I know this is a completely different situation..except for this truth.

The problem is usually something simple..(not all the time)

If the o/p sender was obviously new, I'd suspect the seller tried it already, if it was obviously original...I'd think it could be the problem. (Keeping in mind you may have an internal engine issue), I'd try just to see what happens.
No reading on the gauge is suspect..not normal, even when it's an oil pressure problem I'd expect to see pressure when the engine is cold..some kind of pressure..20-15 psi..something...not zero.(unless the engine was rapping, and it would be knocking with no pressure)..

If the idiot light comes on like before then you most likely do have low pressure... if that's the case. I have run across a stuck relief valve on a oil pump, that can cause very low o/pressure...

BigE said:

I ran into a similar situation when I bought my tractor. See
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/n...-low-rpms.html

It turned out to be a plugged pressure relief valve. Maybe give that a shot?

 

[gemini5362]

I believe i noticed in there where the original poster said the gauge moved just a smidgin at one point. I am curious what the minimum reading on the guage he used is. I might get me a gauge with a minimum and maximum of half of what the gauge he has is and see if i could get to a point where I have a reading. If you dont want to get a new gauge then take the pressure gauge off put a bucket kind of under and around where the gauge was and have one guy start the tractor while the other watches to see if oil comes shooting out. Even at 10 psi it should still come squirting out not kind of dribbling. If no oil then you have a problem that can be anything from minor to major but running with no oil pressure rapidly becomes major. If no oil pressure at all shut it off put it back to normal and have a chat with the dealer. If he told you that there was nothing wrong with it then he has an implied merchantibility issue. Unless you have something in writing some where saying that you realize it might be broke and you will take it like it is, there is an implication that when you take it home it will be available to do the type of work that it was designed to do. It might break the next day after you bring it home but when you bring it home it should be able to work. Dont tell dealer you tried anything but replacing the sending unit. If dealer wont talk about it go to small claims court. The amount of money you are talking about I am fairly certain will fall within the small claims maximum in any state. Go pay your money to have the dealer served. Even if it was sold for someone else, if you paid the dealer it was his sale. Small claims judges are a bit different. They listen to both sides (neither one of which is allowed to have a lawyer in arkansas) and make a decision. If you win then you win the amount you are claiming plus you win your fileing fees. If you go to small claims court your dealer might decide to fix it instead of paying your money back. Either way you will be ahead.

 

[RobJ]

Air in the line will be compressed to the same pressure as oil and SHOULD NOT cause a different reading. Bleed it if it makes you feel better but not because it is required. Don't believe it? What would prevent the air from compressing to the same pressure as the oil, MAGIC?

Pat

While I agree you don't need to bleed an oil pressure gauge, I didn't bleed mine and it works fine.

But that last part, air will compress nicely, I'm not a chemical engineer, but most liquids do not compress. That's why we use to test drilling pipe with water, not air.

Also recall the Mythbusters and exploding water heater. Full or 3/4 full of water, add lots of heat and you get a thud, nothing compresses. But when they only put in 1/4 water and heated it up, kaboom!


Rob

 

[RobJ]

there is an implication that when you take it home it will be available to do the type of work that it was designed to do. It might break the next day after you bring it home but when you bring it home it should be able to work. Dont tell dealer you tried anything but replacing the sending unit. If dealer wont talk about it go to small claims court. The amount of money you are talking about I am fairly certain will fall within the small claims maximum in any state. Go pay your money to have the dealer served. Even if it was sold for someone else, if you paid the dealer it was his sale. Small claims judges are a bit different. They listen to both sides (neither one of which is allowed to have a lawyer in arkansas) and make a decision. If you win then you win the amount you are claiming plus you win your fileing fees. If you go to small claims court your dealer might decide to fix it instead of paying your money back. Either way you will be ahead.

Buy used, buyer beware. Buy used and you are buying someone elses troubles. These old sayings didn't come out of nowhere. I bought my tractor used and checked it as good as I could. But if something broke the first day I wasn't going to court. It's a 1999 model with 1200 hours in it. I got what I paid for. On the other hand, it worked out well in my case.

Going to court you forgot to mention you can loose and have to pay. Dude can say, hey it worked fine for me and this guy was practically begging me to sell it.

Just fix it and enjoy it!!

 

[gemini5362]

Buy used, buyer beware. Buy used and you are buying someone elses troubles. These old sayings didn't come out of nowhere. I bought my tractor used and checked it as good as I could. But if something broke the first day I wasn't going to court. It's a 1999 model with 1200 hours in it. I got what I paid for. On the other hand, it worked out well in my case.

Going to court you forgot to mention you can loose and have to pay. Dude can say, hey it worked fine for me and this guy was practically begging me to sell it.

Just fix it and enjoy it!!

actually in small claims court you just have to pay fileing fees. Their are no lawyers involved so no attorney fees. No cross claims because all you are doing is sueing for implied merchantibility. In arkansas fileing fees are 125.00 that is not much to gamble to try and get your money back or get it fixed.

I agree there is a lot of truth to the buyer beware issue but when you are dealing with a dealer things change. If the dealer sold it saying there was nothing wrong with it you have a lot better arguement

 

[Soundguy]

If you were indeed mislead.. as it appears you were.. it does not mean you were at fault .. or are a sap or an idiot. ( Tractor might still be a dog though ).

Getting lied to makes you a victom.. not an idiot.. hopefully you can get this resolved with the engine still in operable condition.

soundguy

Tallyho8:
This maybe unbelievable but when you referred to this: pain in the ***, nothin' but problems, haven't even used it yet kubota I had a twinge of resentment at the term "dog" that you used to describe my tractor. I'm an Idiot and a sap.
The second part of your reply is right on the button and my thoughts exactly, so stay tuned for more updates probably in a week or so.

I''m not used to being lied to. I run my own business honestly to the best of my abilities and give the best bang for the buck I can. I make my deadlines and usually will underestimate my time and always give a break to my clients if they ask. I've never padded a bill in my life. Why should a car or a tractor dealer get a wink and a nod as if half truths and outright lies are just part of the game.

Anyone interested in the type of work I do go to my online portfolio at Welcome

I may be a tractor idiot, but I'm an angry tractor idiot.

Thank you for your patience.

MLD

 

[mjncad]

I hope mj's above description of dealers habits is not an epidemic all over the US.

B

Well I'll be the first to admit that I am a highly cynical person, hence my comments. However, I do believe the Internet has gone a long way towards equalizing the playing field of getting fair prices and researching dealerships and other things.

In a few days, I should receive a third SCV hydraulic kit from a Missouri Deere dealer. If the kit arrives as promised and intact, I will have good things to comment on regarding that dealer as my local dealers either weren't interested in making a sale ($300+/-), or there is one that I feel the sales department as represented by the salesman I dealt with are a bunch of crooks.

When we bought our 35-acres, we inquired with the saleswoman about whether our future neighbors paid full asking price for the lot or not. She thought they did; but checked into it with the developer. In the meantime, we contracted on the lot for asking price. After the saleswoman contacted the developer, she informed us that our future neighbors paid 95%+/- of asking price, and the developer amended the sales contract for us to pay the same percentage. So there are decent people out there; I just wish they weren't few and far between, o at least more visible.

 

[MLD]

Gentlemen

Thank you for all your comments and suggestions.

For the price of diesel I have the use of a neighbors truck to transport my tractor. Not being mechanical and rapidly using up my friends time and patience not to mention yours. I think it's time to let the pros take a look. So I've put everything back as purchased and will transport my problem to "A" dealer tomorrow. I understand that the Rotation at the dealership is 4 days, so in about a week I should have the oil pressure verdict in the ongoing "Idiot light Saga".

Thank you.

MLD

 

[Egon]

But that last part, air will compress nicely, I'm not a chemical engineer, but most liquids do not compress. That's why we use to test drilling pipe with water, not air.

Actually liquids will compress slightly.

Pressure testing of pipes vessels etc. is usually done with a liquid as there is less chance of damage to surrounding areas if a failure does occur. It is also much easier to record the test as heat variations will have less effect on the liquid volume than on vapor type fluids.

One of my bicycles has air over oil shocks.

 

[nickmech]

Either the engine has oil pressure to spec or it doesn't. You need to know. MLD, good that you are going to have a shop check it out. Should be a quick test with a good master gauge plugged in. We see low oil psi. complaints at the truck shop I work at ocasionally. Most are bad sensors but not always. I've seen spun gear/shaft at oil pump, shop rag blocking oil pick up tube in pan, worn rod and main bearings [bad], or depending on the design it could be a plugged oil filter letting it bypass. Hope you find a simple fix.

 

[MLD]

Idiot Light Update:

After finally receiving the news in writing about the oil pressure light mystery with my B7100 the
verdict is.... "I've been had".

As this thread has been going on along time maybe a quick revue is in order.

I answered an ad for a used Kubota B7100 $2500.00

It was a private sale by the manager of a dealership. The tractor was parked at the dealership and we used the dealerships office to make our deal.

The tractor was very clean for it's age, no visible leaks, every thing worked and it purred like it should, no knocks no rattles just smooth.

I asked the manager two or three times if there was anything wrong with the tractor and he looked me straight in the eye and said ,"No there is nothing wrong with the tractor" each and every time.

He also refused my request for an oil change as unnecessary as it was done twenty hours before.

I decided if I waited this little beauty would be gone by that afternoon And I still think another "Idiot"
would have bought it just as I did.

After getting it home and starting to play with my new toy the idiot light came on and the rest is history, which you can read in more detail above.

The latest news is I brought the tractor to another dealership in the same chain of dealerships to have it checked out by the pros. Sure enough no oil pressure. It wasn't the sending unit and until they open it up
they won't know if its:

A. A gunked up oil screen in the oil pan possibly from sitting to long.

B. An oil pump

C. The plugs in the camshaft.

This camshaft possibility I brought to their attention thanks to a contributor to this thread. The problem is when the dealer contacted kubota they only had a 1979 Service bulletin on the "L" series not the B7100 at least that is all they could find.

The price tag for these options is steep. To cover their @&^%$'s they piled on 16 hours @ $80.00 per hr
that's $1280.00 in labor with a total of 1587.74 included the missing head bolt. and that if all goes well like no other frozen or broken bolts as they disemboweled the engine. This number could be more or less

So armed with this information and still being an "Angry Idiot" I can either go back to dealer I bought it from and demand and get nowhere.

Go to small claims court.

Or go directly to the general manager that oversees all the dealerships and the chain and raise @$^&%!
This is the option I'm leaning towards.

My point being that the seller manager doesn't know what he's doing. Or... he knows exactly what he was doing. Either way their dealership and good name is being used to sell shoddy equipment and this is being reported by me on TBN which at last count has been viewed by over two thousand people and all of them tractor lovers and buyers. And I haven't named names yet.

I definitely made a mistake and I understand it's going to cost me. What I want is some reduction in the repair price.

I may be a "Double Idiot" But that is my position.

 

[BJN644]

I think going to the GM is what I would do. If anything I'm sure he would like to know that there is an employee running his own business on company time.

If you plan on keeping the tractor, I would go with a complete engine overhaul. If that engine has been run much with no oil pressure there has been some serious accelerated wear on every moving part in that engine.

 

[nickmech]

Incredible. Should be an interesting conversation coming up when you confront this sleazeball with the story.

 

[irwin]

What does'nt make sense is the idiot light stays off for ten minutes, but the gauge showed zero pressure cold.. should'a showed 8+psi.