Just had a big hole dug in my front yard

[Iplayfarmer]

DO NOT use phone and network combined into one cable jacket. toooooo much noise. you will hear interfernece in the phone.

Thanks for the heads up. So is it good enough to have phone and network in two separate jackets, or should I plan to separate the lines more if possible.

I have a part of a closet set aside to be a network center. I'm planning to run a separate coax line from the network closet to each outlet rather than running a main line and splitting off to the separate outlets. I figure this is the best method to give me options down the road. I may do the same thing with the phone line. I'm definately doing that with the network cables since I don't think there's any other way.

I have learned one thing from trying to hook up computers at work. I'm going to run each network cable one at a time and label each one at both ends.

 

[dcyrilc]

Thanks for the heads up. So is it good enough to have phone and network in two separate jackets, or should I plan to separate the lines more if possible.

I have a part of a closet set aside to be a network center. I'm planning to run a separate coax line from the network closet to each outlet rather than running a main line and splitting off to the separate outlets. I figure this is the best method to give me options down the road. I may do the same thing with the phone line. I'm definately doing that with the network cables since I don't think there's any other way.

I have learned one thing from trying to hook up computers at work. I'm going to run each network cable one at a time and label each one at both ends.

If your going to put in a media center, you might as well run cables for everything, phone, ethernet, and cable TV. It makes things easier when they all come into one location.

 

[eepete]

I ran a few low voltage wire for my house :confused2:

Cat5e for telco, network, just about all low voltage stuff. One function per cable, don't mix it up. I used a lot of 18 gauge stranded for door switches for alarms, speakers in ceilings (whole house page) and the like. Finally, quad shield coax. Not much talk about coax yet. Don't know if you have cable, off air, or satellite. For satellite, you need 2 coax for DVR (digital video recording).

How we did satellite: Have his and hers DVRs. Have one with IR repeaters, on on RF. Can watch either from the TV room. Then, I ran 3 equal length coax to the master bedroom and the snoratorium, along with a cat5e for the audio. Use the component output from the DVR to run those, and an IR repeater for the IR unit. The ability to watch the DVR from either room is a big win. Also ran one more coax for off air TV to those rooms. BTW, the snoratorium is exactly what you think it is, great feature that many are too embarrassed to talk about.

If you are doing the "floating flat screen" look, put in as big a conduit as will fit in the wall. You'll be wanting to route HDMI connectors through it. The put a box a outlet level to get to the equipment if you're placing it under the TV. Don't forget speaker wires for surround sound. I put all that stuff in the basement and use IR repeaters. I hate looking at piles of audio/video equipment.

A "standard" run to a room was 3 cat5e and 2 coax. That way, most of what you want to do can be done. Used double box with insulator, so have one outlet and all the low voltage in one area. Buy 1K feet of each wire type in various colors (blue, white, and yellow for cat5e, black and white for coax) and it's all one pull. Label everything as you pull it. You don't have to terminate it all now. Agree on conduits from basement to attic, make them as big as you can. OK on 100 amp out of the building for future stuff. Think about running another conduit for low voltage (say, 1.5") so you can have phone and security in our outbuilding. And think about a 3/4" 160 PSI black PE pipe for water.

Other random thoughts, and respond if you want the full list of suggestions:
1) Coax to attic for in-the-attic off air TV antenna
2) cat5e to box at garage and in master bedroom for security panel
3) run conduit outside for future generator hook-up. One big one for power, one 3/4" for the block heater, one 3/4" for low voltage.
4) cat5de to ceiling for motion detectors and/or fire detectors
5) cat5e from main low voltage area to water heater for leak detector
6) cat5e to central area closet in the house for wi-fi box. Be sure there is an outlet there too.
7) cat5e to garage for heat detector for alarm system
8) cat5e to kitchen ceiling for heat detector for alarm system.
9) 4 coax to outside location for satellite dish, put in 6x6 post in concrete. Run it in a 1.5" conduit.

Pete

 

[Coyote machine]

NICE work - what R U wiring- a house or NASA?!:laughing:
Could you say more about IR repeaters, repeaters?
What about using some wireless for pc's and such?
How many weeks do you have into that setup so far?

I ran a few low voltage wire for my house :confused2:

Cat5e for telco, network, just about all low voltage stuff. One function per cable, don't mix it up. I used a lot of 18 gauge stranded for door switches for alarms, speakers in ceilings (whole house page) and the like. Finally, quad shield coax. Not much talk about coax yet. Don't know if you have cable, off air, or satellite. For satellite, you need 2 coax for DVR (digital video recording).

How we did satellite: Have his and hers DVRs. Have one with IR repeaters, on on RF. Can watch either from the TV room. Then, I ran 3 equal length coax to the master bedroom and the snoratorium, along with a cat5e for the audio. Use the component output from the DVR to run those, and an IR repeater for the IR unit. The ability to watch the DVR from either room is a big win. Also ran one more coax for off air TV to those rooms. BTW, the snoratorium is exactly what you think it is, great feature that many are too embarrassed to talk about.

If you are doing the "floating flat screen" look, put in as big a conduit as will fit in the wall. You'll be wanting to route HDMI connectors through it. The put a box a outlet level to get to the equipment if you're placing it under the TV. Don't forget speaker wires for surround sound. I put all that stuff in the basement and use IR repeaters. I hate looking at piles of audio/video equipment.

A "standard" run to a room was 3 cat5e and 2 coax. That way, most of what you want to do can be done. Used double box with insulator, so have one outlet and all the low voltage in one area. Buy 1K feet of each wire type in various colors (blue, white, and yellow for cat5e, black and white for coax) and it's all one pull. Label everything as you pull it. You don't have to terminate it all now. Agree on conduits from basement to attic, make them as big as you can. OK on 100 amp out of the building for future stuff. Think about running another conduit for low voltage (say, 1.5") so you can have phone and security in our outbuilding. And think about a 3/4" 160 PSI black PE pipe for water.

Other random thoughts, and respond if you want the full list of suggestions:
1) Coax to attic for in-the-attic off air TV antenna
2) cat5e to box at garage and in master bedroom for security panel
3) run conduit outside for future generator hook-up. One big one for power, one 3/4" for the block heater, one 3/4" for low voltage.
4) cat5de to ceiling for motion detectors and/or fire detectors
5) cat5e from main low voltage area to water heater for leak detector
6) cat5e to central area closet in the house for wi-fi box. Be sure there is an outlet there too.
7) cat5e to garage for heat detector for alarm system
8) cat5e to kitchen ceiling for heat detector for alarm system.
9) 4 coax to outside location for satellite dish, put in 6x6 post in concrete. Run it in a 1.5" conduit.

Pete

 

[eepete]

coyote: Just a house, but it's just about everything you could ever want to automate. Took 3 of use 3 weeks to pull the wires, new construction. Put a long narrow room in the basement for all the low voltage stuff. It's underneath the TV room on the 1st floor.

The IR repeaters are made by various companies. I used the Dinky Link receiver and the automation system drives the IR LED emitter. There are complete systems out there that take a receiver and drive the IR LEDs. This used to be simple, but the advent of flat panel TVs (both plasma and LCD) and compact florescent lights (CFLs) has muddied the water. You need to get a receiver that is designed to work with these types of TVs. When in doubt, get the plasma compatible (best design, most expensive, about $80 to $130). TV IR remotes use an ultrasonic carrier frequency in the 32 to 50 KHz range. The florescent lights and plasma TVs produce a _lot_ of noise in the 75 KHz and higher range. So the "older" IR receivers that went up to 100 KHz get swamped by all that light noise and don't work.
I've had no problem running the receivers back to the boxes that drive the LEDS on cat5e even though the gauge is smaller than recommended. It's another good reason to run those 3 cat 5e's to TV areas. Many TVs now can connect to an Ethernet line. Then you need a cat-5 for the IR. The cat5 cable should be about $110 per 1K feet, so an extra box of it is your cost to be ready for more than you thought of on day 1. For the component TVs in the bedrooms, I have 4 coaxes (3 for video, one for off air) and 3 cat5e (audio, Ethernet, and IR). Off air system is mix of antenna in attic (with an amplifier) and modulators from the video surveillance cameras.
BTW, the automation system is something I'm working on, not commercially available yet...

About the pix: Some folks like to tie down all the wires into connectors so it looks clean. But then you need to run wires from the connectors to the equipment, and it looks like my pix unless you go tie wrap crazy. So I brought all the wires to the floor and just run them to the equipment. A more normal house needs about a 4' x 4' hunk of plywood for mounting things. Note also that I'm playing with all this stuff, vs. a more static installation, so I take "it works and it's fun" over "it looks neat".

Wireless is great for where you can't have wires. There's a deep thought . So if you can put in cat5e for Ethernet for your computers do it. I also have a wireless end point for laptops and people who visit (both their laptops and their smart phones). There are two reasons I don't like wireless. One is that when everyone uses it, it tends to have problems and it's hard to diagnose problems. Imagine 3 computer users playing games or watching video with their laptops, the home security system is all wireless, you're talking on a wireless phone connected to the wired phone in your house, you have a new electric meter with wireless, and if you're too close to your neighbors they are doing the same. You really think all those things are going to auto configure and play nice?
The second thing I don't like about wireless is all those batteries.
So if you've got a DSL or cellular router and can run some cat5e to your computer from that, I'd do it. Like lots of stuff, wireless is good in moderation.

If the OP wants to know more about automation pre-wireing, I can go on. Someday (year) I'll have all this documented and start a thread on it. I'm finishing up a new tractor garage, and it has security, phone, video surveillance, and house page system. So this does have _some_ tractor tie-in to it. I hope the OP can run more than just a power conduit to his future shop.

Pete

 

[Iplayfarmer]

...If the OP wants to know more about automation pre-wireing, I can go on. Someday (year) I'll have all this documented and start a thread on it. I'm finishing up a new tractor garage, and it has security, phone, video surveillance, and house page system. So this does have _some_ tractor tie-in to it. I hope the OP can run more than just a power conduit to his future shop.

Pete

Please do go on. This is exactly the kind of information that I'm looking for. I don't see myself putting in automation and security system, but your comments have already given me some ideas and helped me in the planning.

I hope this thread serves as a clearing house for all potential wiring scenarios so that I (or anyone later on) can cherry pick the stuff I may want and run wires for that.

When the shop comes around, I do plan to run phone, ethernet, coax, and probably an extra couple of cat5e wires out to it. In the short term I'm going to build a small 10'X10' workspace off the garage, and I'll probably have phone, ethernet and power out there.

The intercom idea is one I hadn't considered. Thanks for bringing it up. I'm thinking seriously enough about that to at least run wire for it.

 

[Coyote machine]

eepete,
Thanks for the lowdown.
I'm in an area where few are close enough to interfere with my wireless. I do like you have an electrical and mechanical room that house all necessary wires, pipes, electrical incoming/outgoing to house, shed and barn, plus barn apartment and a separate shop- built before the barn came along. I have 200 amp service underground from the road to my main service disconnect which is actually a 200 amp transfer switch. From the transfer switch wires go to a load shed center that drops off 4 loads sequentially when the 20kW propane generator takes over for the loss of power from the utility. From there I have 50 breakers in two separate boxes in the electrical room, and a third panel with 20 in the 1st floor mud room. From the elect room 100amps is sent to teh shed and a 20 breaker sub panel and another 100 amps is sent to the barn, underground. The underground conduits to the barn are numerous, including a stepped up size water supply from the house's Kinetico water softner to reduce potential pressure drop issues. At the barn's elect room the 100amp sub-panel power splits and supplies a 20 breaker panel in the upstairs apartment. EVERYTHING is supplied by the one service from the utility. We have been working on the addition to the house and upgrades to the existing house for just about a year, including the newly constructed barn. I am also installing an alarm system with multiple zones, some of which may be wireless. I have a similar system at my two houses in CT, one is a main year round house, the second is a summer unheated guest cottage about 75' away from the main house. Rather than running wire underground in that application we decided to try wireless and after some adjustment for 2.5' thick granite walls it has been working well since around 2002.
I ran cat 5 to my office in my main house and it shares the phone line too. From there I have a BEC wireless modem/router supplied by my phone co. It runs my desktop, several wireless printers and my daughter's laptop and my wife's desktop. when friends visit, like my son's band of maurading World of Warcraft buddies I tap into the router's hardwired ports to pass them most if not all of my regular bandwidth.:confused2:
They're all engineering students, so when they boot up the neighborhood goes dim:laughing:
I'm going to be using wireless doorbells and currently use walkie talkies to communicate between house and barn or house and tractor, etc.
I installed a Bose Lifestyle system that hooks into my Plasma TV, and the smaller LCD, and will interface with Sirius radio, cd storage of 320 hours of cd's dvd's etc. The Bose system has its own smaller cable and amplifier room on the first floor adjacent to the Plasma TV and houses 5 40 amp amps and 1 100 amp amp for the outdoor speakers. Needless to say I think we have a wiring use competition going- but I suspect you've run more than me by the looks of your setup. Three weeks x 3 guys? Man that is over the top!
How long do you guess 'till you have it completed and everything running?
FWIW:
I too am open to questions about why I did things the way I did and how to save on buying various items that otherwise cost some serious $.

 

[eepete]

On the AC side of things:

Here's a shot of the service entrance that goes to the 400 amp disconnect switch (left hand side, rear, behind the ladder). Then that goes to the generator transfer switch (box close to the disconnect- you can see the conduit between them). Then the transfer switch goes to the 4 200 amp breaker panels. You can see the tray where they connect.

Next shot shows the disconnect again. To the left of the disconnect is a 200 amp panel for things that are before the transfer switch. Only have a 45 KW generator, so the resistive electric backups for the heat pumps (10 KW each) are on that, as well as the 100 amp feed to the tractor garage currently under construction. You can also see the cover for the disconnect for the generator immediately to the right of the disconnect switch, and to the right of that is the transfer switch. You can see various penetrations going to the outside.

For the tractor garage, I ran a 15 amp light circuit and one 20 amp outlet from the generator backed up side. So in a power outage, I still have lights and one outlet.

Using 200 amp panels was an economic call. It was cheaper to buy the 200 amp Square-D panels with 12 breakers at Lowes for $200 than to buy the "right" size panels at an electrical supply house.

Key concept here: By putting a panel before the transfer switch for a generator, you can make some load decisions that let you use a generator that is less than the maximum load value for your house. You can also set up a shop with both before and after the generator circuits.

Pete

 

[eepete]

General thoughts about low voltage wiring:

AC wiring is a mix of home runs and "daisy chain". You can run an outlet circuit up to some bedrooms and have 8 outlets on it that are "daisy chained" together. Low voltage stuff tends to be all home run. So for AC, two upstairs bedrooms with lights might have 3 circuits (one lights, two outlets) that could have 12 boxes on them (4 lights, 16 outlets). But that same area for low voltage would have a home run to every box.
Computer/ethernet is home run to a hub.
Speaker wires are home run to various amplifiers.
Now video and telephone used to be daisy chained. You'd just add a phone if you wanted on, and all the phones in the house were in parallel. Video from an outside antenna would have a splitter in each box where it came out. Today, you want to home run the video because a satellite system will have a box in the basement connected to the antenna and the receivers or DVRs want to have their own connection to the box or antenna(s). In addition to the RF on the coax, there is DC used to both power things and do some control of the antennae electronics or box electronics. So today, all video and satellite is home runs, and you want 2 coaxes so you could put in a DVR.
I think phone lines should be home run also. Here's why:
A small PBX is not very expensive. The PBX give you multiple outside line ability and a page function. You can take a call, put it on hold, and then another line can pick it up. The page out from the PBX can go to an amplifier that can run speakers in the house. The PBXs run from analog (compatible with plain old phones or POTS phones) in the $500 range to digital that use fancy and expensive phones in the $2500 range to newer and still emerging VOIP (Voice over IP) phones. The VOIP phone is really a box that looks like a phone (buttons, handset, display) but uses Ethernet to talk to the PBX. So if you run a cat5e to each phone, you can do any of these systems. You can also do none and wire it up with a pair per outside line and a plain old phone. So home run cat5e per phone works with everything from POTS phones of yesterday to VOIP phones of the future.

OK, so, phone, computer, speaker wires all home run. Note that any room you can put a speaker in can be used for either the page function on a PBX or some alarm systems can talk and say which door was just opened (i.e "front door"). Automation systems also use the heck of a paging system. Relying on the little poor speaker in the alarm panel is silly compared to a few strategically placed speakers throughout the house.

Other things to run are sensors. Doors can be done with the magnetic switches. During construction or door replacement, a plunger can be put into the door frame so that nothing is visible. There are also the surface mount magnet/reed switches that are easer on a retrofit, but also scream "This house had door sensors". Finally there are the big boxes for retrofit alarm systems that contain wireless stuff and batteries which are also very obvious. I like the aesthetics of the totally hidden sensors, and they score high on the spousal approval scale :thumbsup:.
Smoke detectors (all types- ionization, smoke, and heat) come in many flavors, all can be run on a cat5e. Both alarm systems and automation systems can use them, but not both at the same time.
Motion detectors and glass break detectors also can run on cat5e. All of these devices have too many different wiring schemes. Yet another victory for standards... :confused2:. I use ones that take 12 volts DC for power, and give me a contact closure when they trigger. Almost all alarm systems can handle that type.

So if you look at the picture of the low voltage wire area, and then think about all the home runs, and then think about how a reasonable thing to run to each room (in a perfect new construction world) would be 3 cat5es and two coaxes, you can see that you would pull 5 wires at once to the box. Make it a double gang box with power on one side, low voltage on another. If you get all the spools lined up (and choose colors to help you identify that cables later) it's not as crazy as it looks. See the enclosed pix to see what I'm talking about.

I have the wire types down to a 18 gauge stranded pair for doors and speakers, cat5e, and quad shield coax. When they come into the low voltage wiring area, I split out the cat5 from the speakers from the video (left to right in the picture) anticipating different equipment using those different wires.

So there is some background on general low voltage stuff for things you probably know about. Next: the exotic and fun stuff :licking: !

Pete

 

[aczlan]

When I worked as an electrician we rarely did low voltage, but when we did, my boss encouraged clients to add a two strand 18 (or so) gauge wire going from a wall mount phone box (like you would use to put a cordless phone on the wall) or a countertop level phone box back to the low voltage patch panel area. The idea being that you could then have the transformer for your cordless phone in the basement out of the way and just have the wire coming out from beneath the jack and going into your phone.

Something to think about when wiring phones.

Aaron Z