Kubota L48 or Deere 110? Your thoughts..

[JPCjr]

I suggest starting another post/thread to hash out "The Benefits of Large backhoes vs. Small backhoes." There's stuff that a Case backhoe can't do that a Deere 120C can do. There's the start of another thread! wow.

Blake
WA

I was thinking the same thing, so I started a new thread here:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...093-compact-tlb-vs-full-size.html#post1180630

 

[leoniru]

FWIW, I bought a new L-48 instead of a used full-sized machine for two very important reasons:
1. No CDL/large rig required to move it
2. No wories about a high hour used machine taking a crap and me having to eat the loss.


leoniru

 

[coopers]

cool.

Blake
WA

 

[drgrant]

I think if you had experience running both, you'd realize that a Case 580 is darn near as manueverable as a small Kubota. Reason I know is because I've run both machines in the same scenarios and was surprised at how nimble my Case is in tight spots. I'm just kicking myself for ever having sold my Ford 555!

Builder, I have to say I agree with most of your points. I've been
researching this issue myself (I see SOMETHING with a backhoe in my
future) There are some nice used TLBs below 30K floating around
out there and they're very tempting. You buy a new, or nearly
new CUT and load it up with FEL, BH, and weights, you can blow past
that number easy.

I don't think that a regular tractor with a backhoe on the back of it is a
bad thing.... the biggest advantages of something like a Kubota or a JD
tractor with a BH is that it'll probably damage ones lawn a lot less, they're
really small, and you can move them with a pickup truck and dodge a
CDL. (Although, from what it appears, one can drive a regular BH w/o a
CDL, trailering it is a different story... correct me if I'm wrong on that...
brings up another question, how do most states treat a real TBL as a road
vehicle? I'm guessing it just gets regged as a "truck" of some sort. I'm
also guessing that TBLs aren't allowed on roads with high speed limits,
etc.... )

Outside of the advantages of the compactness, though, I see a real
TLB beating a CUT just about every time for FEL and BH work. There
are going to be some cases where the full TLB isn't going to fit, but I'd
guess thats an exception rather than a rule.

Further, due to the machines being so damned robust, it's
probably a lot harder to break the things, save for severe operator negligence.

IMO in a perfect world it sounds like the answer is to have both a
TLB and a CUT or AG type utility tractor.


-Mike

 

[Builder]

Builder, I have to say I agree with most of your points. I've been
researching this issue myself (I see SOMETHING with a backhoe in my
future) There are some nice used TLBs below 30K floating around
out there and they're very tempting. You buy a new, or nearly
new CUT and load it up with FEL, BH, and weights, you can blow past
that number easy.

I don't think that a regular tractor with a backhoe on the back of it is a
bad thing.... the biggest advantages of something like a Kubota or a JD
tractor with a BH is that it'll probably damage ones lawn a lot less, they're
really small, and you can move them with a pickup truck and dodge a
CDL. (Although, from what it appears, one can drive a regular BH w/o a
CDL, trailering it is a different story... correct me if I'm wrong on that...
brings up another question, how do most states treat a real TBL as a road
vehicle? I'm guessing it just gets regged as a "truck" of some sort. I'm
also guessing that TBLs aren't allowed on roads with high speed limits,
etc.... )

Outside of the advantages of the compactness, though, I see a real
TLB beating a CUT just about every time for FEL and BH work. There
are going to be some cases where the full TLB isn't going to fit, but I'd
guess thats an exception rather than a rule.

Further, due to the machines being so damned robust, it's
probably a lot harder to break the things, save for severe operator negligence.

IMO in a perfect world it sounds like the answer is to have both a
TLB and a CUT or AG type utility tractor.


-Mike

In my state, you can "road" a backhoe on back roads with little notice from the police. Technically, you need a licence for it, but most cops around here don't care. My guess is that it gets more scrutiny as the states try to scrape up more revenue.

you are right about the "perfect world" scenario. A full size 4x4 TLB and a CUT is the perfect set-up for what I do, too. I have the full size backhoe, but I'm still trying to find a 4x4 CUT with a cab & loader for a reasonable price.

Small tractors are a darn rip-off. You pay a high price for their small size, which flies in the face of logic, but it's reality.

 

[plowrup]

I think what is being missed here (or maybe it has been and I missed it) is the versatility of a smaller TLB-a 580 Case does not have a three point-you can do so much more with a 110, L39 or L48 (for instance if you are a Landscaper you can put in a Sprinkler System and then finish grade the lot with a Box Blade, take out the Rocks with a Harley Rake, or even seed it if neccesary).

If you are a dirt guy a 580 is the best Hoe out there IMHO (I worked for Case for 15 Years-they are a darn good machine), but there is a growing market for Compact Equipment (the trend in Sales for larger Backhoes are falling nationwide) and Skid Steer, Mini-Excavators and small TLB's are increasingly taking their place. Couple that with what has been pointed out here (ease of Transport) and you can see why. Not to mention that you can buy a new Skid Steer and a Mini-Excavator cheaper than a new 580.

I sell to a lot of Miom and Pop Rental stores and they cannot keep these size of Machines on the lot-they rent very well and are very durable (even when they rent them to someone who has no prior experince on Equipment and REALLY tests them-remember, what's the fastest Car on the road? A Rental Car!).

 

[tlbuser]

I think what is being missed here (or maybe it has been and I missed it) is the versatility of a smaller TLB-a 580 Case does not have a three point-you can do so much more with a 110, L39 or L48 (for instance if you are a Landscaper you can put in a Sprinkler System and then finish grade the lot with a Box Blade, take out the Rocks with a Harley Rake, or even seed it if neccesary).

Well, yes and no. Why do you need a 3 pt? Because the attachments are cheaper or just habit? They do make harley rakes, boxblades and just about everything else you can imagine to go on a QA plate. Add enough hydraulic capacity and off you go. The one mark that's still missing on smaller stuff is backhoe capability. I do not like SS mounted hoes. Excavators are nice for some stuff, but a TLB is still the (IMO) best choice for load, move and dig operations.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Well, yes and no. Why do you need a 3 pt? Because the attachments are cheaper or just habit? They do make harley rakes, boxblades and just about everything else you can imagine to go on a QA plate. Add enough hydraulic capacity and off you go. The one mark that's still missing on smaller stuff is backhoe capability. I do not like SS mounted hoes. Excavators are nice for some stuff, but a TLB is still the (IMO) best choice for load, move and dig operations.

Have you actually seen someone do this? I did not think it was possible. Angled widths don't work out, hydraulic flow is a tad low, etc.

 

[plowrup]

Well, yes and no. Why do you need a 3 pt? Because the attachments are cheaper or just habit? They do make harley rakes, boxblades and just about everything else you can imagine to go on a QA plate. Add enough hydraulic capacity and off you go. The one mark that's still missing on smaller stuff is backhoe capability. I do not like SS mounted hoes. Excavators are nice for some stuff, but a TLB is still the (IMO) best choice for load, move and dig operations.

Three point equipment is generally much cheaper than Skid Steer mounted. I agree totally on Skid Steer mounted Hoes-since the Compact TLB's have come out we haven't sold a SS hoe one.

I do not disagree that for Dirt work ONLY, the large TLB's are the way to go (as I pointed out in my Post)-the problem is that they are limited in usage. As far as Dig Depth is concerned, our Manufacturer's point out that over 85% of all holes dug are under 6 feet, so a Compact TLB will work very well for most people.

My point is that for the Homeowner , small Rental Store, Landscaper and such it's hard to beat a mini TLB (and, of couse, a mini-TLB will also run most all of the SS attachments which greatly increases it's capability). I don't know how long it will be until Deere or Kubota offer an Extendahoe option, but I think it will be soon.

There is a place for the 14' TLB-I do not dispute that-however most of the Contractors I deal with are buying Skid Steers and mini-Excavators-it's a trend that is increasing (notice that everybody now has entered the market?), and with two operators (one running a Skid Steer, the other a mini Trackhoe) Contractors are moving more Dirt, getting more done (with less Capital expense, which means more $$).

I think you are missing my point-

 

[Builder]

I've owned both for years and just the loader speed & capacity & ability to rip into a pile faster on a 580 is like night & day compared to a small TLB. On the backhoe end, there's no comparison. My L-39 or L-35 would just raise up on most rocks & jar me around like a dang puppet where my 580 Super M just powers right through most rock. Same with stumps & breaking up concrete. There's just no comparison, even when you're digging shallow rock, stumps, concrete, blacktop, etc.

There's dozens of small TLB owners here on this site who rise up & defend them like they're defending their wife's reputation. I'm not trying to say they're not nice machines, but they're just too light & weak to compare to a full size to accomplish serious digging tasks. For little stuff, they're great, in fact, they're better due to lesser lawn damage & easier transport. All the little guys pull em around in my area with little trucks as did I.

 

[Rara Avis]

I finally made my mind up today and bought a USED Kubota L48. I just got it home a few hours ago, so I haven't had hardly any seat time, but seams to be a nice machine.

I need to find a operators manual to it, any ideas?

Here is a generic operators guide...

https://www.equiptrain.com/backhoes.htm

 

[curtisfarmer]

how many hours and how much? L48 all the way.

 

[tlbuser]

I think you are missing my point-

Maybe you could clarify your point then so that I can understand. A one man show doesn't need two machines at the same time. A homeowner/large estate owner would be near foolish to buy a mini-x. It would take quite a bit extra time to cut in a foundation or full basement with your combo.

 

[tlbuser]

Have you actually seen someone do this? I did not think it was possible. Angled widths don't work out, hydraulic flow is a tad low, etc.

Probably not in the sense your thinking of. A full size machine needs fullsize attachments. I've got a 4n1 bucket, pallet forks and a 10' snow blade on the front end, qa buckets and a post hole digger on the back. Hydraulic flow is a huge variable dependent on machine and attachment. Except for the guys running mulching heads, who really needs high flow?? While harley rakes are neat tools, I can get by without one.
FWIW, I start once we get a clearing/grading permit and my end is done when final grades are.

Chalkey did an impressive outfit on his EF-5 once he eliminated the mind block of front vs. back.

 

[xxxsandman]

I ended up buying a used L48. My brother has a large full size ford backhoe that I have a lot of time on.

Now that I've had seat time on both, I must say I REALLY like the L48. I've already found several jobs around my place that I can do with it, that the full size can't do! It's not because the L48 is stronger, it's just smaller and more agile, it can get into positions that a full size can't. Wiggle through tight trees to dig out an area in a pond, etc. The L48 barely clears my barn stalls and can clean my barn out. The L48 leaves less foot print in my yard then the full size because it doesn't weigh as much, but it is heavy!

Yesterday, I decided to take the backhoe off it, so I could clean the barn "hoe doesn't clear doors". WOW was it easy. I never guessed it would be so easy to take off. You pull 2 pins and move a couple levers and the hydraulics does the rest. Took me 3 mins or so. Next time it'll be faster, since I know what to expect. I hope putting it back on is as easy!

I find the loader and hoe plenty strong for every task I've done so far. They don't have the strength or capacity of a full size backhoe, but they are way stronger then simliar size compact/utility tractors!

I've put almost 20 hours on my L48 and really the only grip I have is the gear range, which everyone grips about. As MANY have noted their is too much gap between the Medium range and High range. The high range is not a working gear, just transport. This causes you to have to shift between Medium and High when doing front end loader work that requires much travel to dump. I never use the Low range, it just doesn't seem required, as it never has stalled in Medium.

So all this debate on which backhoe you should get, a full size or L48 or 110, is easily answered in my mind. None of them is the best backhoe for every job. There's jobs a full size's strength, weight, and speed is best, altough most jobs a full size can do, a L48 or 110 could do, but slower and less effecient. There's also jobs a L48 or 110 can do a full size can't do at all, because it can't squeeze into position, etc. It's all about choosing the right tool for the job at hand. So if you can't have more then one piece of machinery, choose the one that will do the most jobs YOU have to do the best.

 

[plowrup]

Maybe you could clarify your point then so that I can understand. A one man show doesn't need two machines at the same time. A homeowner/large estate owner would be near foolish to buy a mini-x. It would take quite a bit extra time to cut in a foundation or full basement with your combo.

tlbuser,

You are correct (from your point of view)-a one man show cannot run two machines-but could you do more jobs (in a shorter time) with two machines (and Operators) instead of one? I am referring to a Landscaping Contractor trying to make a living doing this (more than half my business is Contractors).

In this day of Labor shortage, employees jumping from Company to Company, and a myriad of other factors, just the hauling of these Machines can be a challenge-we regularly haul bigger Machines for Contractors that don't want the expense/record keeping/headaches of owning the Equipment required to move some of this Equipment (especially bigger Excavators).

If you are running a business that can be more mobile, can handle smaller tasks and be "lighter on it's feet", you can cut your expenses and save money. I am not trying to debate the issue with you-just look at the Sales numbers and it is quite clear-more and more, small Machines are selling (with double digit Sales increases every Year), and while the 580 size Machines are still selling, they are in decline.

Now, for the average Homeowner, how often does he dig a 14' hole? Really, not that often. But what if he has a small Hayfield (and irrigates via flood irrigation), the 580 is limited, while the smalller unit can keep his ditches clean, run a 6' sicklebar Cutter, run a small Baler, handle a wheel rake, cut his Weeds, and so many other Tasks.

No doubt, there is a place for a 580-but it is not a Swiss Army knife like one of these smaller units-

 

[Builder]

So all this debate on which backhoe you should get, a full size or L48 or 110, is easily answered in my mind. None of them is the best backhoe for every job. There's jobs a full size's strength, weight, and speed is best, altough most jobs a full size can do, a L48 or 110 could do, but slower and less effecient. There's also jobs a L48 or 110 can do a full size can't do at all, because it can't squeeze into position, etc. It's all about choosing the right tool for the job at hand. So if you can't have more then one piece of machinery, choose the one that will do the most jobs YOU have to do the best.

That's all that counts, you got the right size machine for your needs. If you need a small machine for tight spaces and l-48 is great.

After that, we'll have to disagree. A full size can do many, many more jobs than a small TLB. After having owned & operated both for years, the full size TLB has more verstaility than a small TLB. To say a small TLB can do most jobs a large TLB can do but slower is incorrect. A small TLB could never lift out an object that is heavier than its' lifting capacity. So you could never extract a stump or lift a boulder no matter what. The small machine just won't do it. Then what do you do? Dig up half your customer's back yard? The other example is dig depth. If you have to dig a trench, pit, foundation beyond the dig depth of a small machine DANG, stuck again, it won't do it. Set a septic tank, nope, can't do that either.. How about loading a high sided dump truck? Can't do that one, either. Then there's the cab issue. I can work in blistering heat, dust clouds, storms, or freezing weather and remain safe & protected from the enviroment outside-a big plus that a small TLB will never have.

As far as fitting under a low door height, the small TLB wins there. If you drive a backhoe inside buildings, then yes for the ones who do that, it is an advantage. However, with my extendahoe, I can be farther from the object I'm digging by 6 feet than a small TLB, so I don't have to get as close in the first place.

Yes, there are a few instances, mostly due to clearance, where a small TLB can get to a spot that a large TLB can't, but there's more practical instances where a large TLB will do what the little guys can never do.

 

[machmeter62]

I ended up buying a used L48. My brother has a large full size ford backhoe that I have a lot of time on.

Now that I've had seat time on both, I must say I REALLY like the L48. I've already found several jobs around my place that I can do with it, that the full size can't do! It's not because the L48 is stronger, it's just smaller and more agile, it can get into positions that a full size can't. Wiggle through tight trees to dig out an area in a pond, etc. The L48 barely clears my barn stalls and can clean my barn out. The L48 leaves less foot print in my yard then the full size because it doesn't weigh as much, but it is heavy!

Yesterday, I decided to take the backhoe off it, so I could clean the barn "hoe doesn't clear doors". WOW was it easy. I never guessed it would be so easy to take off. You pull 2 pins and move a couple levers and the hydraulics does the rest. Took me 3 mins or so. Next time it'll be faster, since I know what to expect. I hope putting it back on is as easy!

I find the loader and hoe plenty strong for every task I've done so far. They don't have the strength or capacity of a full size backhoe, but they are way stronger then simliar size compact/utility tractors!

I've put almost 20 hours on my L48 and really the only grip I have is the gear range, which everyone grips about. As MANY have noted their is too much gap between the Medium range and High range. The high range is not a working gear, just transport. This causes you to have to shift between Medium and High when doing front end loader work that requires much travel to dump. I never use the Low range, it just doesn't seem required, as it never has stalled in Medium.

So all this debate on which backhoe you should get, a full size or L48 or 110, is easily answered in my mind. None of them is the best backhoe for every job. There's jobs a full size's strength, weight, and speed is best, altough most jobs a full size can do, a L48 or 110 could do, but slower and less effecient. There's also jobs a L48 or 110 can do a full size can't do at all, because it can't squeeze into position, etc. It's all about choosing the right tool for the job at hand. So if you can't have more then one piece of machinery, choose the one that will do the most jobs YOU have to do the best.

SANDMAN: Well stated, and I totally agree! There must be a big market for this class of backhoe, as they become more popular! If I made my living with TLB's; I would have a big one too.

 

[xxxsandman]

Clearly Builder, you are happy with your full size Case. I've read you brag about it in many threads, many times. It sounds like a nice machine and MORE important it sounds like the RIGHT machine for YOU.

But not everyone is YOU and has YOUR needs. My point is just that, just because a full size Case backhoe is best for Builder doesn't mean it's best for you. Just because I feel a L48 is best for me, doesn't mean it's best for you.

They all have their advantages. That nice Air conditioned cab on Builders machine would be really nice, but I bet the trees I was working in this last weekend would have made it an open cab without glass REAL quick. It was tight, even on my smaller L48 open cab.

Builder, nothing personal, your machine looks awesome, I wish I had it and my L48, but can't afford both, barely can afford just one.

 

[tractorman]

Follow this link and take a look at this Yanmar CBL40 video. Woodbury Tractor Company, LLC
It is a very impressive machine! Anyone interested in driving one is more than welcome to come play in our large sandbox.