liens

[Code54]

Absolutely!!!

 

[Capricious]

The insurance idea is wonderful. Often with a homeowners or business policy, there are some obscure coverages that go along for "free" that we all ignore. We care about fire, theft, collision and liability. But what if you do have coverage for being the victim of a fraudulent transaction? Very smart to check on that.

If not, I'd be looking for the guy that defrauded you. Have some PI at least check for location, current job, any bank account, any assets. If he comes back as someone with no assets or job who will likely never have anything, then I'd just drop it. But if his name is on the title of something, I'd get a judgment against him and a lien on whatever he has. You never know, his great uncle may have left him a piece of property by now.

Homeowner's insurance will not cover a loss from a title defect on the real estate; that is the function of title insurance. I don't see it covering a title defect on
personal property.

Whether or not a typical commercial policy would cover such a situation I do not know. Perhaps there is a rider available ??

 

[kthompson]

Homeowner's insurance will not cover a loss from a title defect on the real estate; that is the function of title insurance. I don't see it covering a title defect on
personal property.

Whether or not a typical commercial policy would cover such a situation I do not know. Perhaps there is a rider available ??

Memory is not sharp on this but I think you will find that is NOT covered in commercial either but that could vary with some state laws.

 

[CincyFlyer]

Exactly. It depends on the policy but you can have a claim if you have a loss to your equitable interest. That is essentially what you are insuring anyway. Some very interesting cases on insurable interests in equity. In this case I think it would have helped if he would have insisted in JD making a theft report and having the police get a right of possession hearing in a local court. That way he could have had law enforcement seize the tractor, court ruling that he lost his interest due to a fraudulent sale and most likely his insurance would have had to pay for his loss.

.

Of course, it would have been a good idea for the dealer and/or the buyer to check for a UCC filing; I do know that I'll be doing that on all purchases that could be affected by that.

 

[two_bit_score]

Homeowner's insurance will not cover a loss from a title defect on the real estate; that is the function of title insurance. I don't see it covering a title defect on
personal property.

Whether or not a typical commercial policy would cover such a situation I do not know. Perhaps there is a rider available ??

It’s the distinction and difference in holding title and holding equitable interest that is throwing you. One doesn’t have to have “title” to have an equitable interest that he can insure.

 

[two_bit_score]

Of course, it would have been a good idea for the dealer and/or the buyer to check for a UCC filing; I do know that I'll be doing that on all purchases that could be affected by that.

That is a good lesson to learn from this sad case. It’s best to try to deal with someone you know well enough that you can either have first hand knowledge of how they came to have the tractor or can ask them the sometimes difficult questions to protect yourself.

 

[Capricious]

It’s the distinction and difference in holding title and holding equitable interest that is throwing you. One doesn’t have to have “title” to have an equitable interest that he can insure.

In some states, under certain circumstances, it may be that a "good faith buyer without notice" may acquire an "equitable interest" in stolen property, but I am not aware of an insurance company that insures that risk on any ordinary homeowners or commercial policy.

It MAY be possible to purchase specific coverage for that risk.

 

[two_bit_score]

In some states, under certain circumstances, it may be that a "good faith buyer without notice" may acquire an "equitable interest" in stolen property, but I am not aware of an insurance company that insures that risk on any ordinary homeowners or commercial policy.

It MAY be possible to purchase specific coverage for that risk.

So you are actually trying to assert that someone CANNOT have equitable interest that is covered under a physical loss portion of a Homeowners policy unless they also have legal title?

Just trying to be sure what we are differing on here before this goes too far.

 

[Capricious]

So you are actually trying to assert that someone CANNOT have equitable interest that is covered under a physical loss portion of a Homeowners policy unless they also have legal title?

Just trying to be sure what we are differing on here before this goes too far.[/QUOTE


What is "too far"?



Homeowners is not going to protect you if you buy a machine from someone who does not own it.


If you think you have an ownership interest in the machine, it is up to you to go to court and prove that ownership interest.

 

[two_bit_score]

So you are actually trying to assert that someone CANNOT have equitable interest that is covered under a physical loss portion of a Homeowners policy unless they also have legal title?

Just trying to be sure what we are differing on here before this goes too far.[/QUOTE


What is "too far"?



Homeowners is not going to protect you if you buy a machine from someone who does not own it.


If you think you have an ownership interest in the machine, it is up to you to go to court and prove that ownership interest.

“too far” means basically I don’t want to expend energy and time to explain something if we are thinking about separate issues or are just on different ‘wavelengths’ of the same issue.

Some statements you have made are technically correct in a narrow reading but you seem to be really missing the point when it comes to insurability of an equitable interest as a whole.

It’s not my intention to give anyone specific advice but the last part of this thread has been enlightening and could serve a very useful purpose, generally speaking. I don’t want to cloud it up with useless arguments that won’t add any real benefit.

I think you are well intentioned in your statements but some really indicate a misunderstanding of the issue of equity in the context of insurance.

 

[CincyFlyer]

So you are actually trying to assert that someone CANNOT have equitable interest that is covered under a physical loss portion of a Homeowners policy unless they also have legal title?

Just trying to be sure what we are differing on here before this goes too far.

Can one have an "equitable interest" when buying stolen property?

 

[two_bit_score]

Can one have an "equitable interest" when buying stolen property?

Like in most everything, it depends. The thief cannot. The fence cannot. An innocent, uninvolved party can. But, they may not have a superior right to the possession of the property. That is what gives rise to the insurance claim.

 

[CincyFlyer]

Here's a sample UCC form—mine! I got it from Ohio's UCC search page (Ohio UCC Search), most states have them.
And after reading this thread, anyone buying anything of any real value needs to check (a guitar, a tractor, whatever.)
Note that not only is my tractor listed, but so is the loader, backhoe, and backhoe bucket! There are no serial numbers on the UCC, it references a document which does; I've blurred out that and other information.

 

[Sprinklerman]

So basically if you dont know the original buyers name , of a piece of equipment , and then each buyers name after that , the state where they lived , or moved to , you literally have no way to verify if there is a lien on anything .

 

[John Fitzgerald]

It seems it's much better to buy from someone you know well and trust, or buy from a dealer's actual new or used stock, not consignment stock. Newer model CL tractors would be very risky, it seems.

The solution, it seems, is to title everything over a certain new price number, even high end mowers, and index that requirement to inflation. I think states don't want to do it; more hassle for them, and more load on the DMV.

 

[Ken]

I agree the emotional part is an issue. But if you could find the original seller, he owes you 100% of what you paid him. Your current deal with JD is a separate sale. They can legally sell it, the original owner could not.

Seems pretty unlikely that the seller has any assets, but if he did you might be able to make lemonade from these lemons.

If he has any assets, I'd go after him. There are companies you can hire that will sleuth out the guy, find him, check for bank accounts, job status and so forth. It would be money well spent.

The 1099 idea is clever.

Dave . Should you try to get a return of funds. all that is needed is a lawyer that files a chapter 7 with fed judge.
You get slapped with a do not contact the sorry dog.
Your lawyer that is happy to file papers and charge for every minute doing this then notifies you he is unable to go farther, and sends you a bill for saying so.
The Fed hearing you have no lawyer and he is judged not needing to repay the amount owed.
Just lost 80 k with this scheme.
ken

 

[CincyFlyer]

Dave . Should you try to get a return of funds. all that is needed is a lawyer that files a chapter 7 with fed judge.
You get slapped with a do not contact the sorry dog.
Your lawyer that is happy to file papers and charge for every minute doing this then notifies you he is unable to go farther, and sends you a bill for saying so.
The Fed hearing you have no lawyer and he is judged not needing to repay the amount owed.
Just lost 80 k with this scheme.
ken

And in our state, and likely most others, they won't discharge a debt that was incurred during the commission of a crime.

 

[D2Cat]

I've had rental property where the tenant finally left owing a couple thousand dollars. I contacted an attorney and give them the lease agreement and payment records. Attorney agrees to 40% of settlement. Proceeds to court and gets judgement. Party has no assets.

I get a statement each year for $15 due. This keeps me active with them. This person has to hide every checking account, tax refund, any asset. It's up around 4K now because interest is added on. Been going on for about 5 years now.

I don't expect/anticipate any money from this situation, but it is satisfying to make them less then comfortable in their financial transactions.

I function on the premise, make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult. It's the only way I know to get folks to change their behavior.

Maybe the OP could use the info. JD has on their files and cause this thief some grief.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Until states decide (Lord forbid) to record all sales of serialized commodities buying used from unknown sources will continue to be a crap-shoot. Look at the bureaucracy involved in just real estate, weapon, boat, and vehicle reporting and recording; multiply that by some long number I cannot dream of. As said many times here; buy only from established dealers or folk's you know and trust.

Ron

 

[George2615]

I've had rental property where the tenant finally left owing a couple thousand dollars. I contacted an attorney and give them the lease agreement and payment records. Attorney agrees to 40% of settlement. Proceeds to court and gets judgement. Party has no assets.

I get a statement each year for $15 due. This keeps me active with them. This person has to hide every checking account, tax refund, any asset. It's up around 4K now because interest is added on. Been going on for about 5 years now.

I don't expect/anticipate any money from this situation, but it is satisfying to make them less then comfortable in their financial transactions.

I function on the premise, make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult. It's the only way I know to get folks to change their behavior.

Maybe the OP could use the info. JD has on their files and cause this thief some grief.

I went through the same thing with a tenant. Owed back rent and damages to property. My Lawyer got a judgement against tenant and served on his employer. Employer was forced by law to deduct from paycheck and send to lawyer who then paid me. It took a few years but I got my money back with interest and included lawyers fees. If tenant quit his job lawyer would have filed for his tax return.

For the OP, the previous owner of the tractor should have received a loan release from the lender when he paid off the tractor and passed that on to the buyer. I did that when I sold my previous tractor. If he didn't pay it off and kept your money and now the finance co. is coming after you then you'd have to sue the PO or take the loss.