Highbeam
Super Member
In theory a bumble bee cannot fly. The bee does not know this and so he flies.
Locating septic leach field
- Thread starter seapea
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Ok, so I'm not so good at quietly sitting by while misinformation continues:
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Now why do I believe dowsing can work? By the same principals as applied above. You hold two brass rods (good conductors) parallel to each other and the earth natural magnetic field will tend to hold them parallel (and induce a very small current when you hold them). When the field is disrupted by items under ground, the rods register the anomolly in the magnetic field by deflecting.
I mgiht be on crack....but it sounds better to me than Uri Gellar and bending spoons. Your links only explain "paranormal" dowsing using sticks, intuition etc.... I'll ignore that and opt for the scientific explanation, which I believe exists. Matter of fact, I do believe underground locating services not only use RF detectors, but magnetic ones as well (again...advanced dowsers).)</font>
I'm not saying that water through a pipe doesn't produces some sort of RF or magnetic engery that *could* be detected (this may or may not be true). However, if true it is so faint that no person can detect it with any measure of reliability (this has been proven for anyone who has agreed to undergo a properly run and controlled dowsing experiment). Also, electonic equipment would be able to detect these forces far more acurately than any person, and equipment to do so would be cheap. I have seen the phone company detect underground phone lines by running an extra strong current through it and detecting it with a fairly simple handheld device held above ground.
So, what you have proposed above is a plausible, but has not been reproduced in a properly run experiment.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I have also seen dowsing work. You can't convince me otherwise.
I can't make it work, but others can.
Just because it cannot be fully explained does not make it untrue, take gravity for instance...... )</font>
And I've seen David Copperfield make a building disappear. That doesn't mean he really did it. I've also seen people guess a coin flip 8 times in a row. That doesn't make them psychic either. They just got lucky.
Maybe gravity is not fully explained (I haven't looked into this), but that's irrelevant. We know gravity exists and can't prove that it does not exists. The opposite is true of dowsing. We don't know that it exist, and the ability to dowse has been disproved every time it was properly challenged. Note, I will agree that no claim can be made that no one can dowse. However, a claim can be made that no one has proven they can dowse.
Unfortunately, this clearly wasted typing on my part, given your "You can't convince me otherwise." comment.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( In theory a bumble bee cannot fly. The bee does not know this and so he flies.)</font>
The original "theory" was that a bumble should not be able to fly given our understanding of bumble bee anatomy, aerodynamic, physics, gravity, etcs. Clearly a bumble bee can fly, so there is a flaw is the information used to produce this theory, and in fact it is now understood why bumble bees can fly:
Bumble Bees Can Fly
However, like with the gravity argument, just because we don't understand why something is the way it is does not mean we should except things that can be proven not to be true.
I guess this can be summarized by saying there is no proof that no one can dowse, because no one has taken the time to disprove everyone who claims they can dowse. However, no one has been able to prove (and once again I'll repeat, this must be done with a properly run experiment in order to be credible) that they can dowse.
BTW, some people also chime in with "there is no scientific proof that God exists, yet most of the world believes He does.", and from this conclude that pretty much everything should be accepted as possible. The problem here is that you can't prove that God does not exists, and you never will be able to. You can, however, prove someone's dowsing claim to be false.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Now why do I believe dowsing can work? By the same principals as applied above. You hold two brass rods (good conductors) parallel to each other and the earth natural magnetic field will tend to hold them parallel (and induce a very small current when you hold them). When the field is disrupted by items under ground, the rods register the anomolly in the magnetic field by deflecting.
I mgiht be on crack....but it sounds better to me than Uri Gellar and bending spoons. Your links only explain "paranormal" dowsing using sticks, intuition etc.... I'll ignore that and opt for the scientific explanation, which I believe exists. Matter of fact, I do believe underground locating services not only use RF detectors, but magnetic ones as well (again...advanced dowsers).)</font>
I'm not saying that water through a pipe doesn't produces some sort of RF or magnetic engery that *could* be detected (this may or may not be true). However, if true it is so faint that no person can detect it with any measure of reliability (this has been proven for anyone who has agreed to undergo a properly run and controlled dowsing experiment). Also, electonic equipment would be able to detect these forces far more acurately than any person, and equipment to do so would be cheap. I have seen the phone company detect underground phone lines by running an extra strong current through it and detecting it with a fairly simple handheld device held above ground.
So, what you have proposed above is a plausible, but has not been reproduced in a properly run experiment.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I have also seen dowsing work. You can't convince me otherwise.
I can't make it work, but others can.
Just because it cannot be fully explained does not make it untrue, take gravity for instance...... )</font>
And I've seen David Copperfield make a building disappear. That doesn't mean he really did it. I've also seen people guess a coin flip 8 times in a row. That doesn't make them psychic either. They just got lucky.
Maybe gravity is not fully explained (I haven't looked into this), but that's irrelevant. We know gravity exists and can't prove that it does not exists. The opposite is true of dowsing. We don't know that it exist, and the ability to dowse has been disproved every time it was properly challenged. Note, I will agree that no claim can be made that no one can dowse. However, a claim can be made that no one has proven they can dowse.
Unfortunately, this clearly wasted typing on my part, given your "You can't convince me otherwise." comment.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( In theory a bumble bee cannot fly. The bee does not know this and so he flies.)</font>
The original "theory" was that a bumble should not be able to fly given our understanding of bumble bee anatomy, aerodynamic, physics, gravity, etcs. Clearly a bumble bee can fly, so there is a flaw is the information used to produce this theory, and in fact it is now understood why bumble bees can fly:
Bumble Bees Can Fly
However, like with the gravity argument, just because we don't understand why something is the way it is does not mean we should except things that can be proven not to be true.
I guess this can be summarized by saying there is no proof that no one can dowse, because no one has taken the time to disprove everyone who claims they can dowse. However, no one has been able to prove (and once again I'll repeat, this must be done with a properly run experiment in order to be credible) that they can dowse.
BTW, some people also chime in with "there is no scientific proof that God exists, yet most of the world believes He does.", and from this conclude that pretty much everything should be accepted as possible. The problem here is that you can't prove that God does not exists, and you never will be able to. You can, however, prove someone's dowsing claim to be false.
Another option I've read about in trade mags is the use of ground penetrating radar (GPR). It's used for everything from locating burial sites to locating utilities. I have no idea what it would cost to have someone do a locate, but the technology is expanding and it may be affordable for your situation.
I googled "ground penetrating radar" and GPR and found all kinds of information. The first time I read about it was when it was used to find victims in a murder investigation. Since then, I've read about it being used to locate utilities and map out changes in soil types.
I googled "ground penetrating radar" and GPR and found all kinds of information. The first time I read about it was when it was used to find victims in a murder investigation. Since then, I've read about it being used to locate utilities and map out changes in soil types.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Another option I've read about in trade mags is the use of ground penetrating radar (GPR). It's used for everything from locating burial sites to locating utilities. I have no idea what it would cost to have someone do a locate, but the technology is expanding and it may be affordable for your situation.
I googled "ground penetrating radar" and GPR and found all kinds of information. The first time I read about it was when it was used to find victims in a murder investigation. Since then, I've read about it being used to locate utilities and map out changes in soil types. )</font>
Yes, radar (and sonar) can most defintely be used to map out geological changes underground, and certainly the leach field pipes and course material could be detected. I googled "ground penetrating radar leach field" and the first hit listed leach fields.
The cost of the equipment is pretty high. It appears to be in the low tens of thousands, so it probably would cost a good chunk of change to hire someone to do the work, but may be worth if it is in the low to mid hundreds. I wasn't able to find any information on how much services typically cost. It would probably actually be cheaper for me to rent an excavator and cut a swath where I think the last leach line is suppose to be.
In any case, when I talk to builders I'll definitely ask if they use GPR and what it would cost. Thanks for the tip.
I googled "ground penetrating radar" and GPR and found all kinds of information. The first time I read about it was when it was used to find victims in a murder investigation. Since then, I've read about it being used to locate utilities and map out changes in soil types. )</font>
Yes, radar (and sonar) can most defintely be used to map out geological changes underground, and certainly the leach field pipes and course material could be detected. I googled "ground penetrating radar leach field" and the first hit listed leach fields.
The cost of the equipment is pretty high. It appears to be in the low tens of thousands, so it probably would cost a good chunk of change to hire someone to do the work, but may be worth if it is in the low to mid hundreds. I wasn't able to find any information on how much services typically cost. It would probably actually be cheaper for me to rent an excavator and cut a swath where I think the last leach line is suppose to be.
In any case, when I talk to builders I'll definitely ask if they use GPR and what it would cost. Thanks for the tip.
slowrev
Elite Member
Ground penetrating radar, remember Heraldo and Al Capones vault /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Not sure that GPR works so well either.
Ben
btw I believe the brush killer method will work to clearly outline a leach field, just a bit drastic. But there might be some other safe chemical tracer method out there ?
Ben
btw I believe the brush killer method will work to clearly outline a leach field, just a bit drastic. But there might be some other safe chemical tracer method out there ?
I called a company that provides GPR services, and it looks like GPR won't work for this. It doesn't penetrate clay very well and 6ft of clay just makes it impossible. It would be like taking an x-ray through a lead plate. Also, leach fields are pretty hard to detect in the first place. The person I spoke with said using a backhoe is probably the only option.
Oh well.... it sounded like a good idea /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
One other thought that came to mind, was one of the vacum excavators. The ones I've seen used were small units on a trailer towed behind a pickup. They used a wand (for lack of a better word) that has a high pressure water line and a vacum line. The water jet breaks things up and the vacum sucks the material out. The one I saw was being used to create small holes to locate utilities. Here's one similiar to the one I saw.
Then again, maybe the backhoe is easier /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
One other thought that came to mind, was one of the vacum excavators. The ones I've seen used were small units on a trailer towed behind a pickup. They used a wand (for lack of a better word) that has a high pressure water line and a vacum line. The water jet breaks things up and the vacum sucks the material out. The one I saw was being used to create small holes to locate utilities. Here's one similiar to the one I saw.
Then again, maybe the backhoe is easier /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
DrRod
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A few years back the New Yorker did an article on a dowsing convention. Now the New Yorker is a safe distance from the National Inquirer and they just reported what they saw. Along with the usual sticks et al they reported numerous people using crystals to track underground water -- which would be in opposition to the magnetic theory. They also reported on people who could drive a rod in the ground and redirect the water course -- in one case saving a sinking corner of the fire house.
I just figure that there's still stuff we don't understand. Recent investigations are questioning the concept that each finger print is unique (there's really no reason for it) and the basic physics of flight (could the Bernoulli effect be wrong?). So there's still room our there for a little wonder.
I just figure that there's still stuff we don't understand. Recent investigations are questioning the concept that each finger print is unique (there's really no reason for it) and the basic physics of flight (could the Bernoulli effect be wrong?). So there's still room our there for a little wonder.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( A few years back the New Yorker did an article on a dowsing convention. Now the New Yorker is a safe distance from the National Inquirer and they just reported what they saw. Along with the usual sticks et al they reported numerous people using crystals to track underground water -- which would be in opposition to the magnetic theory. They also reported on people who could drive a rod in the ground and redirect the water course -- in one case saving a sinking corner of the fire house.)</font>
Reporting what they saw does not represent a scientific study. Like I said, I've seen David Copperfield make a building disappear. That's reporting what I saw, but in no way implies in any way that people can actually make buildings disappear (well, maybe a demolition crew can /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif).
I'm not saying that we shouldn't believe things are possible simply because we don't have any explanation for them. If a properly run scientific study concluded that some people can indeed dowse (with sticks, rods, crystals, etc), but there is no explanation as to how, I would then believe that it is possible. To date, this has not been done. This is why I have *not* said that dowsing is impossible. I've only said that it has never been properly demonstrated to be possible.
Reporting what they saw does not represent a scientific study. Like I said, I've seen David Copperfield make a building disappear. That's reporting what I saw, but in no way implies in any way that people can actually make buildings disappear (well, maybe a demolition crew can /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif).
I'm not saying that we shouldn't believe things are possible simply because we don't have any explanation for them. If a properly run scientific study concluded that some people can indeed dowse (with sticks, rods, crystals, etc), but there is no explanation as to how, I would then believe that it is possible. To date, this has not been done. This is why I have *not* said that dowsing is impossible. I've only said that it has never been properly demonstrated to be possible.
erich
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Seapea,
I knew I was going to get in trouble for that! Dowsing aside, did you find your leach field?
Eric
I knew I was going to get in trouble for that! Dowsing aside, did you find your leach field?
Eric
