Buying Advice Need help on Final decision

[DK35vince]

Backhoes are fine if used enough to justify the considerable cost. Problem is, the main part of a tractor is the Three Point Hitch, which is covered by the Backhoe. So to use the Three Point Hitch and Backhoe interchangeably, you are always wrestling the Backhoe on or off. Backhoes should not be stored outside. A Backhoe needs to be stored indoors in a space with humidity control.

Any time I use my backhoe I want/need the loader bucket available for backfilling, Etc.
I rarely need the 3 point till after the backhoe work is done and the boxblade or backblade go on for leveling.

My backhoe sat outside under a tarp for years, now it sets on a dirt floor in an unheated barn. No humidity control or special treatment needed.

 

[jeff9366]

Your contradicting yourself with your comment on weight is better
I can tell you from experience, the difference in the performance on the DK loaded tires and not, is night and day, especially after you pull the Hoe off, which takes 2 minutes off, and 5 on.

Weight in the tractor frame contributes to tractor and loader rigidity, strength and lift capacity. Loaded tires are a permanent pre-load.
.
No doubt you can notice a difference with loaded tires. The debatable point is, do you need loaded tires to maintain traction? With 4-WD, most tractor owners do not need loaded tires for traction when performing ground engaging work. I can't speak to your conditions, nor tire type, nor tire wear in particular; you may NEED loaded tires.

(On steeply sloped ground, loaded tires contribute to stability by lowering the center of gravity, but the OP has not mentioned sloped ground as a factor to be considered.)

A mounted implement relieves stress on the front axle and bearings, because implement weight is behind the rear axle. Loaded tires do not reduce front axle and bearing stress, which can be considerable when transporting loads in the bucket, especially over uneven ground. There are a lot of threads about replacing front seals on tractor-loaders on this site.

Soil compaction is a detriment to soil fertility. I try to work with as little tractor weight as possible while still accomplishing whatever the task is.

I said nothing about how long it takes to mount or dismount a Backhoe. I did say to use a Backhoe and the Three Point Hitch interchangeably, the operator has to wrestle the Backhoe on/off to make the Three Point Hitch available.

(At age 67-1/2 years I find wrestling the 110 pound Bucket Spade and 88 pound Ratchet Rake on/off the bucket inconvenient too, even though both mount and dismount quickly.)

Everyone should equip their tractor as they deem best. This site supports diverse opinions, which are valuable to prospective tractor purchasers.

 

[s219]

Generally, my rule of thumb is that loaded rear tires are necessary to offset the weight of the front loader. Additional 3-pt ballast or implement is needed to offset the weight of materials carried in the front loader bucket. If I had a full time backhoe, that would cover all bases.

I test drove my L3200 on the dealer lot before purchase, and before the tires were loaded, and it was downright unstable due to the weight of the FEL. Traction was not an issue on flat ground, but the light bobbing rear end was. I wouldn't recommend anyone put an FEL on a tractor of that weight/wheelbase class (or similar) without running loaded tires. To me that is just the baseline.

I hear you on soil compaction, but if that's a concern then proper tire selection should help. In the case of the two tractors I have owned, most of the rutting I have left was from the front tires, and having loaded rears (or not) won't make any difference there.

 

[serenityseeker64]

Wow, lots of good info to wake up to, thanks to all.

Definitely rethinking the HST, but the DK on the lot does not have it...so that kinda stinks (nether did the nx5010 though). If I go that route no making a deal oh this tier 3 (interim 4?) I guess.

The backhoe is sticking in my mind. A sample of the projects I have is at least 200 feet of trenching for various projects, excavation for a greenhouse base, small koi pond (hand dug one before, but NOT in this soil) many stumps will require some attention, and the list goes on. I may only pull it out a few times a year, but like the 4wd on my truck it is there when I need it and I don't have to ask for someone to do it for me or rent equipment. Probably just justifying to myself but going to try to find a way to budget this..hope I can do so. I really couldn't find much saying it should be stored in a climate controlled situation for humidity etc. I couldn't afford such a set up, and I would hope a piece of hardy equipment such as this wouldn't require it. I know that most true working backhoe attachments spend much of there time on the tractor anyway, so usually outdoors. Mine would be stored in the enclosed pole barn when not in use.

As far as tires, I won't be doing a lot of fieldwork. Few food plots at most (our gardening is all raised beds). Much time will spent on the dirt roads, trails/roads on the property (some of which I will clear), in the woods, dragging trees for firewood, work around the house site, and clearing small sections at the time. We plan to leave the vast majority of the land forested for our own enjoyment and to cultivate the wildlife habitat. I actually did mention the rolling terrain we have, so loaded tires may be of some help I'm thinking. Leaning strongly to Ag tires at this point. Not worried about tearing up a lawn and will rarely be on pavement.

While my wife is no mechanical expert she tends to have good insight. Keeps asking me if we are not better off getting slightly larger and heavier for not only power but stability/safety. Now while I realize we can turn any piece of equipment over given the right circumstances, I like her argument cause it means I can go with something a little larger with less guilt.


Sooooo, while I was thinking I was just walking in and getting something of the lot I am going to re-examine my process. My thoughts at this time are to have the dealers price out a 50HP or close as I can get (hopefully staying with Kioti in part because ergonomically it fit me so much better than others) keeping in mind my total weight, hydraulic gpm and PTO hp, hydraulic extras discussed here, and likely HST (if 1k difference or so will do). Will price with and without backhoe but really want it. Will also need at least a medium duty rotary cutter and land planer but wonder if I'm not better off going to the auction for these (Woods, Land pride or BushHog are on the wish list). I think I will try to go with Ag tires as I dont see a down side. If they are willing to load them for a 100 bucks sounds like a deal to me.

While I was excited about the DK will just have to make a final decision on HST vs shuttle and go from there. Will then look at what I'm offered and how incentives play into it and "zero percent" vs free FEL etc. Will then get comparable price on Mahindra and Kubota, but the dealer support is not as close and I know less about those dealers. Use as a bargaining tool but try not to alienate a dealer I think I want to work with. Whew! Not going to be quite as simple as I thought LOL. Hoping to make this purchase in the next few weeks at most so I will continue looking for ya'lls input on here...keep it coming!

 

[s219]

If you will do a lot of front loader work and/or operate around a construction/building site, I'd vote for R4 industrial tires. They are a lot tougher and handle loads better. They are equivalent to what you'd find on backhoes and other equipment.

 

[serenityseeker64]

If you will do a lot of front loader work and/or operate around a construction/building site, I'd vote for R4 industrial tires. They are a lot tougher and handle loads better. They are equivalent to what you'd find on backhoes and other equipment.

So the more aggressive ag tread wouldn't benefit me much in the clay/slime, on the hills in woods etc? thanks in advance for the reply

 

[s219]

So the more aggressive ag tread wouldn't benefit me much in the clay/slime, on the hills in woods etc? thanks in advance for the reply

Oh, it will for sure. But it's also more vulnerable to punctures and has a lower load capability. Tires are always a compromise, so you should pick based on the priorities and accept that there will be some trade offs.

That said, 4x4 helps traction in ways tires won't, but there are situations where even 4x4 and optimal tires won't matter. In other words, you can do your best but you might still be screwed. Tractors can get stuck in ways that will blow your mind and make your hair fall out. My solution is to avoid soft ground as much as possible, and be practical about it. Sometimes the only solution to really muddy ground is time, waiting for it to dry.

Around here, once of my worst problems is muddy clay soil and pine needles. Drive through sticky clay and then onto pine straw, and pretty soon the tires are balled up like a mud hut. Makes a huge mess, especially when it starts rubbing on fenders, hoses, wiring, etc.

 

[jeff9366]

I think you have it "together" to make a purchase you will be satisfied with.

Bravo on your wife selection.

 

[grm61]

.No doubt you can notice a difference with loaded tires. The debatable point is, do you need loaded tires to maintain traction? With 4-WD, most tractor owners do not need loaded tires for traction when performing ground engaging work. I can't speak to your conditions, nor tire type, nor tire wear in particular; you may NEED loaded tires.

So You can't speak for me.....but you can speak for "most tractor owners" not needing loaded tires.
Where do you come up with this stuff?:laughing:

 

[woodchipper]

You have used good jugement in my mind! So you are definitely norrowing your search scope. Ag tires will give you more ground clearance. you said you will do trail work. R4s are a compromise between turf and Ag. When you get to working in the woods, even if it looks dry, you will soon find out how quickly mud can appear. If you decide on R4s, then do yourself a favor: mount chains on the rears! No tire is puncture proof. Loaded tires give you more traction, more stability, and a smoother ride!! R4s don't. I'll let you figure out the tire weight loading capacity. A simple question for your dealer to answer. Yes, R4s are wider and bring your center of gravity down, as their flanks are lower. They also offer less ground penetration on wet soil. No doubt.

The reason your dealer has the gear model in stock: they sold all their HST models! So you are in a good position to get a better deal on the gear models. They won't get sold in a day or two. This time of the year is also one of the slowest. again playing to your advantage.
Jump on the machines and play with them on the dealer lot. Having a feel is always a good eye opener.
no doubt HST is better safety wise on any slope...
Keep discussing things with your dearest half, and don't be afraid to ask her opinion, and get her on the seat as well!:thumbsup: you will do both of you a favor.:cool2:

 

[jrclark]

So the more aggressive ag tread wouldn't benefit me much in the clay/slime, on the hills in woods etc? thanks in advance for the reply

Just for reference, I have R4s on a machine much smaller than the models you're looking at. Before our driveway went in, we had a spot that was a complete swamp, likely as bad as anything you have on your lot. The only time it got stuck was when the tractor high-centered. Was able to push the machine backward with the bucket. That was the first day I had it, never happened again. The R4s will have a larger contact patch as well, making it more stable in my opinion.

You have woods and hills, I would absolutely go with loaded tires. Our property is littered with glacial rock, so when adding that to the mix, loaded tires made so much sense. I've inadvertently pulled the back tires up when backing over a rock while lifting and dragging a huge log from the bucket. I tend to learn quickly when making these mistakes.

Fwiw, I have a gear tractor and live deep in the woods. Driven enough HST tractors lately to know that I didn't need to spend the money on it. All of my street cars were manual, so I'm stubborn when it comes these sorts of things

 

[paulfun9]

I don't have loaded tires! They as stated before do not offset the weight on the front axel as as many think. They do in some cases help traction but in some cases they actually help you sink into the mud faster and with a big wide tire sinking in rather than floating on top you will more than likely get stuck. Argue if you will but there is a trade-off on loaded tires that many don't even realize.

Now I will give the flip side to going too big with a machine. Yes in most cases it seems folks have a tendency to go too small and without a good dealer to help sway the decision they can end up being slightly disappointed. Now the BUT- but there are many who have gone too big and had to downsize as well. You have to look at this objectively and from a few different angles to determine which of the two you fit into or if you have nailed it right from the start.

Remember that the machine must fit into anyplace you intend to work it both now and future use so judge size accordingly.
Just yesterday I cleaned out a neighbors driveway and walks for him because he couldn't get it done for his family as he was away. My first attempt was to do everything with the DK but ended up having to come home and fire up the smaller JD because the DK simply could not fit into some of the spots they needed open. Now for my homestead everything has been set up to work with the bigger bucket and wider snow blower but trees and forest that need cleared can be a pain for some. The heavy tree line here lends itself well to the DK but anything bigger would be a pain without me actually taking out more than I really wish to.

For those getting upset because of things like loaded tires or time it takes to mount a backhoe sometimes we have to consider that our words are printed without the help of facial expressions or body language to help determine the authors true meaning.
With the words( " the operator has to wrestle the Backhoe on/off to make the Three Point Hitch available.
") Many new folks would read that to mean that they are a true pain to get on and off rather than someone having dislike for changing attachments in general or something due to age and not being able to do things with as much ease as they once did.

Tires will always be a tradeoff as pointed out before. I find that from a combination of my experience and many of my friends experience that Industrial tires are a good balance for my needs Only you will be able to make that decision. Keep in mind that if the machine is already on the lot and dosnt have to be ordered in, keeping the tires that are on it could help with price negotiations.

 

[grm61]

I would take a gear/shuttle tier 3 machine, over a tier4 hydro.
I love the Hydra static drive on my DK, however....You are at a critical time being able to get a tractor that is not tier 4.

Tires....The 14.924 r4s on the DK are the perfect size for the weight of the tractor, between ground pressure=traction, and flotation.

For instance the LS and Massey use a 17.5L24 in the similar sized tractor, this is a wider tire, with a very flat profile=less ground pressure/traction, to much flotation for a tractor of this weight for optimal traction IMO.

My Kioti with loaded rears is a brute, and I don't have any problem in mud, although I try and avoid it, if the ground is soft and muddy, your going to make a mess with r4s or r1s.

When you get your tractor you can get some rock hauled in for your driveway:thumbsup:

If it were me I would avoid tier4 like the plague while you still have a choice....No need for all that crap on a tractor for home use IMO....My DK has mechanical injection, a throttle cable, and a muffler....I like it that way.

Since you have a good Wife, concerned with your safety, comfort, and well being, have you considered a cab model?

 

[TJP89]

You will have to decide for yourself on the tires. I have 25 mostly wooded acres and use the tractor for snowplowing, brushcutting, hauling, and other heavy tasks. No fine landscape work. I have ags unloaded, and wouldn't change. I will say that, although any setup can get stuck, R4s tend to collect mud, muck and snow, while the ags shed it. r4s have been known to cake up solid and just spin. On the other hand they are pretty puncture resistant, although I've pulled a 2in staple out of my tires with no effect on the psi. They also spread the weight better. In your case I would go with R1s because there is no outstanding reason not too. Also, my dealer said that he would rather put turf tires on than industrials for traction. This was with R4s on the unit, and R1s about $100 less each than R4s. On the backhoe, do the cost of renting a machine versus the cost of buying it, factoring in ease of renting. The numbers should help you decide there. I've found attachments are usually had cheaper after market.

 

[grm61]

Also, my dealer said that he would rather put turf tires on than industrials for traction.

That would be your typical sales yapper....ridiculous:confused2:

 

[TSO]

Lots of good posts.

Let me add something to consider that I don't believe has been mentioned yet. If you decide to stay with HST, then it is wise for you to choose a tractor this size as this is the largest frame of the compact tractors. However, if you decide you can stay with a shuttle transmission, then you can forget staying with that compact class and step up one more size to a utility tractor. In my opinion, there is very little reason to get a standard transmission in a compact tractor. The only reason would be size limitations. But you have a large piece of property, and your capabilities would increase dramatically by stepping up to the next sized tractor. I believe for Kioti that would put you in the RX series. You could also try to find a leftover, or slightly used, DK 55. That tractor will be much more capable and stout then the others you are looking at. You will also have the option to look into a power shuttle transmission. That is kind of a mix between HST and standard shuttle.

 

[serenityseeker64]

This is all helpful.
2 different dealers, and a sawmill owner close to me (king of all things outdoors..just knows tons) all suggested 45-50 HP for my perceived needs, most leaning towards 50.

Road actually likely has a decent amount of gravel buried in it, hence my desire for the planer (bionic blade type). My sawmill friend swears by them. Will likely still need to have track come out and spot some gravel at minimum.

Discussed the backhoe issues with my dear bride. If I need to rent equipment 30-45 min drive to get it. Not the end of the world but requires some planning. How often will I use it? No real way to say this early, knowing me I will "find" plenty of ways to use it lol. I will admit it is toward the dream end of my must have list. As it will be just me and the bride trying to figure the things we need to do what we can by ourselves. That drove the choice for FEL---a bizzillion it can help with. Same with 4wd, when u need it u need it.

Am I going to see appreciable difference b/w 45-50 in these models?

If I just deal with what is on the Kioti Lot that I described at the beginning, neither would be HST, so then Tier 4 consideration and the difference in specs become deciding factors to look for price package. Seems like most here would go with DK45?

I will say that my gut feeling is that I would want to work with this dealer but it is mostly my gut guiding me.

 

[TSO]

This is all helpful.
2 different dealers, and a sawmill owner close to me (king of all things outdoors..just knows tons) all suggested 45-50 HP for my perceived needs, most leaning towards 50.

Road actually likely has a decent amount of gravel buried in it, hence my desire for the planer (bionic blade type). My sawmill friend swears by them. Will likely still need to have track come out and spot some gravel at minimum.

Discussed the backhoe issues with my dear bride. If I need to rent equipment 30-45 min drive to get it. Not the end of the world but requires some planning. How often will I use it? No real way to say this early, knowing me I will "find" plenty of ways to use it lol. I will admit it is toward the dream end of my must have list. As it will be just me and the bride trying to figure the things we need to do what we can by ourselves. That drove the choice for FEL---a bizzillion it can help with. Same with 4wd, when u need it u need it.

Am I going to see appreciable difference b/w 45-50 in these models?

If I just deal with what is on the Kioti Lot that I described at the beginning, neither would be HST, so then Tier 4 consideration and the difference in specs become deciding factors to look for price package. Seems like most here would go with DK45?

I will say that my gut feeling is that I would want to work with this dealer but it is mostly my gut guiding me.

What else do they have on the lot?

 

[serenityseeker64]

What else do they have on the lot?

Need to go back and look. I kinda walked up, told them what I was looking for and we ended up at these two. Several models smaller and larger but I didn't get specs/details. I hesitate to go much larger because I know I will be out in the woods with this and maneuverability was a concern to me to some degree. They did have New holland on the lot, but to get in the 50 hp range required a beast of a tractor in terms of side, at least in my mind.

Now again...this is all based on remote experience and my perceptions. I have had mission creep already LOL. Started out looking 30-35 hp range. I think I am in a more realistic range here but obviously tapping the collective brains here for free advice. I spent a few years on a "gentleman farm"...not a full time operation but we bailed a lot of hay, prepared a cpl of house sites, built barns, worked on ponds, road maintainence for the place etc. Did some construction in a former life so had some brief experience with bobcats, dump trucks, front end loaders and the tractors we had at the farm. Figured I would throw that out there for frame of reference.

Also, speaking with cpa here locally, all of this equipment will be fully tax deductible in my state as we will set ourselves up as forestry/farming-all legal and on the up and up.

 

[TSO]

Need to go back and look. I kinda walked up, told them what I was looking for and we ended up at these two. Several models smaller and larger but I didn't get specs/details. I hesitate to go much larger because I know I will be out in the woods with this and maneuverability was a concern to me to some degree.

Now again...this is all based on remote experience and my perceptions. I have had mission creep already LOL. Started out looking 30-35 hp range. I think I am in a more realistic range here but obviously tapping the collective brains here for free advice. I spent a few years on a "gentleman farm"...not a full time operation but we bailed a lot of hay, prepared a cpl of house sites, built barns, worked on ponds, road maintainence for the place etc. Did some construction in a former life so had some brief experience with bobcats, dump trucks, front end loaders and the tractors we had at the farm. Figured I would throw that out there for frame of reference.

Ok. Just keep in mind my previous post regarding slightly larger tractors if you stay with gear. The overall size and footprint is not dramatically larger to go up to the next size, but the capabilities and ruggedness will increase quite a bit.