Post Emissions tractors

[Jerry/MT]

I know this could turn into a lengthy post. But I’m really care more for a short answer. What are the issues with tractors made after the post emissions technology? Are they more troublesome? More complicated for the backyard mechanic? Lost their simplicity?

The simple answer is yes. Given the environment a farm tractor operates in (dusty, high vibration, high humidity, wide temperature variations, etc), all the emissions technology to date has meant higher initial cost, less reliability, and higher cost of ownership. And for what? I see no changes in air quality on my ranch nor on anybody elses.

 

[ericm979]

The simple answer is yes. Given the environment a farm tractor operates in (dusty, high vibration, high humidity, wide temperature variations, etc), all the emissions technology to date has meant higher initial cost, less reliability, and higher cost of ownership. And for what? I see no changes in air quality on my ranch nor on anybody elses.

Yea, that's cause you're in the middle of nowhere (of which I'm envious).

I grew up in the greater SF bay area and live pretty close to it still. There's a lot of people and the cities are surrounded by mountains on three sides. The prevailing wind comes from the ocean side. So it's a natural air pollution trap. Since the '70s the air in the bay area has gotten noticeably cleaner even though there's 50% more cars and trucks. That's due to emissions laws. While I don't agree with every one of those, overall they have been effective in reducing emissions.

As far as tractors go I can see (and breathe) a big difference in the exhaust of my 37hp Branson vs the 17hp Kubota I had before. The pre-emissions Kubota would stink up the air around it when running a PTO chipper unless the wind was the right direction and stink up the barn idling for a few minutes. The Branson doesn't do that. Can't even see any smoke from the exhaust. I'm sure it's better for my lungs too. For me the lack of diesel stench is worth whatever the additional cost was.

 

[Jerry/MT]

Yea, that's cause you're in the middle of nowhere (of which I'm envious).

I grew up in the greater SF bay area and live pretty close to it still. There's a lot of people and the cities are surrounded by mountains on three sides. The prevailing wind comes from the ocean side. So it's a natural air pollution trap. Since the '70s the air in the bay area has gotten noticeably cleaner even though there's 50% more cars and trucks. That's due to emissions laws. While I don't agree with every one of those, overall they have been effective in reducing emissions.

As far as tractors go I can see (and breathe) a big difference in the exhaust of my 37hp Branson vs the 17hp Kubota I had before. The pre-emissions Kubota would stink up the air around it when running a PTO chipper unless the wind was the right direction and stink up the barn idling for a few minutes. The Branson doesn't do that. Can't even see any smoke from the exhaust. I'm sure it's better for my lungs too. For me the lack of diesel stench is worth whatever the additional cost was.

I have no smoke coming from tractors and none of them are Tier IV.
Most of the emissions problems are in/near big cities. It's due to the numbers of vehicles. Bur don't regulate emissions on farm tractors. They are a minute part of air quality problems and margins are so slim in agriculture we don't need more cost with no benefit.

 

[fried1765]

That's the problem which I'm having. My tractor sets outside, although I do keep a tarp over the engine compartment. For the second time in 3 years I'm starting to have fuel problems. I do add biocide but hadn't been faithful about it for a while, as I kept forgetting to pick up a bottle while I was in town.

"forgetting to pick up a bottle while in town" ??
The nice man in the big brown truck can bring that stuff right to your door.

 

[mo1]

I have no smoke coming from tractors and none of them are Tier IV.
Most of the emissions problems are in/near big cities. It's due to the numbers of vehicles. Bur don't regulate emissions on farm tractors. They are a minute part of air quality problems and margins are so slim in agriculture we don't need more cost with no benefit.

The smokiest engine I've been around was the 329 six in a Deere 4400 combine. That would belch vast quantities of smoke until it warmed up, and then after that it cleaned up quite a bit and made a mild haze. But wow, you did not want to be in the machine shed when that fired up, your eyes would water and the inside of the shed looked like the inside of Cheech and Chong's van for half an hour despite all of the doors being wide open.

The 1987 Massey-Ferguson I used to have would smoke a bit at startup and then none after about 30 seconds. It would stink up the garage but that was about it. It also had about 4000 hours which was a boatload for a compact tractor, so I bet it was getting a little worn out and probably was a little smokier than it should have been.

Anything we had made after 1990 but before Tier 4 would make a tiny puff of smoke just at startup and then absolutely none. You could smell a whiff of exhaust now and then but that was it. I could tell when the off road diesel went to ULSD around 2010 with these engines as it went from the typical diesel exhaust smell to something that smelled a lot more like jet exhaust.

The only post-Tier 4 unit I've ever even been around is my Deere 5075E. No smoke whatsoever. Exhaust smell is nearly absent, when I do smell anything, it smells like hot metal.

 

[Jstpssng]

As much as we hate it, the new low sulfur fuel seems to run cleaner. Even my old 1984 L275 Kubota smoked a lot less when the formulation changed. That may have been coincidence though, as I had been running Sea Foam and also running the engine a bit harder than before. Still, I'd had it about 5 years so believe that it was at least partially related to fuel.

I notice the diesel smell when running my father's no emissions L2800 vs my 3301; just as I can tell when somebody just had a cigarette by the smell on their clothes. If you are used to it you won't notice in either case. Once I get all of my projects done though I probably will trade for something with lower emissions though... my next tractor purchase will be my last. (I know, that's what I said three years ago. )

 

[Thunder chicken]

That's the problem which I'm having. My tractor sets outside, although I do keep a tarp over the engine compartment. For the second time in 3 years I'm starting to have fuel problems. I do add biocide but hadn't been faithful about it for a while, as I kept forgetting to pick up a bottle while I was in town.

I know ya’s get some rain over that way, but why put a tarp over the engine?
I found tarps act like plastic cling wrap….
keep the sun off maybe? But seems to be a great way to trap the humidity and heat in, maybe helping to speed up your water/algae problems? I cringe every time I see a firewood pile covered up to the ground with a tarp mind you.

 

[Jstpssng]

I know ya’s get some rain over that way, but why put a tarp over the engine?
I found tarps act like plastic cling wrap….
keep the sun off maybe? But seems to be a great way to trap the humidity and heat in, maybe helping to speed up your water/algae problems? I cringe every time I see a firewood pile covered up to the ground with a tarp mind you.

There's plenty of air circulation up underneath, but yes, it's to keep the sun and rain off. I know what you mean though.... tarping tightly often will cause more problems.

 

[coobie]

Care to provide a link for your claim? I don't buy it. Maybe under 25 horsepower as with all units so far but over 25, don't think so, like I said, Substantiate your comment with a link or hard facts, not your opinion. They may not have an ECM but I don't believe they don't have some sort of post treatment of exhaust gasses.

Having said that I don't know squat about a Branson, no dealers anywhere around here anyway.

Speaking of links ..Do you have that link or page number in the owners manual you stated in a previous thread(2016 chevy 2500 truck) about your wife's 2020 chevy burb having the Allison transmission option availability.Love to see it..

 

[coobie]

I will just post a link to my own thread on what I did to my "post Tier 4" tractor to remove the DPF/DOC filter:

Exhaust Mod on my 3725

And I can absolutely state it as FACT that the Branson will run without any issues at all if you take the exhaust filter and data logger off.

Mine's been running that way for over 2 years now. Not. One. Single. Problem. since taking it off.

And mine's a 37 hp.


I know you're just itchin' to argue over things, but in this particular case, you are dead wrong.

And we know you don't know squat about Branson's. It doesn't seem to stop you from making wrong statements though.

"Frequently Wrong, Never In Doubt".

Don't you go changin' buddy.

Great post you HIT THE NAIL on the HEAD with 5030 posts..

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

"What are the issues with tractors made after the post emissions technology?"

A big part of the emissions problems on tractors are actually caused by the operator. Either by not understanding exactly how these things work and how the tractor needs to be run to keep the DPF happy or by the dealers not teaching the owners how to properly run the tractors with DPF. Another big thing I suspect it happens a lot, is that people buy tractors too big for their application and can't simply put enough load on the engine to keep the DPF happy, however, this could be solved by going down the road every once in a while in the highest gear and RPM.

"Are they more troublesome?"

Maybe a little bit more, but mostly because these tractors do have a lot more electronics going on. And rodents are around, they can make a mess on the wiring.

"More complicated for the backyard mechanic? Lost their simplicity?"

Most are due to all the electronics going on, and specially ECUs that only the dealers can access those for diagnostics. So far I believe Branson is still the easiest tractor to work on as they retain the mechanical function as much as they can. The engine is still fully mechanical and so is the rest of the tractor. They only get the data logger for the DPF but that's pretty much a standalone unit and won't leave the tractor dead if something happens to it.

Meanwhile I can walk out to any of these 80's tractors and they'll bust off and I can get busy. Never been back to dealer and run just fine. We bale hay rolls by the thousands. Plant a garden. Last year had over 6,000 watermelon. Have four Pilgrim Pride egg laying houses. Pretty much year round use. Heck, my mother is past 70 and she still plows the garden. We cut and haul logs too. Tractors doing that today.

Neighbor has a new dear John that has something broke on variable cam timing. Another has a new kubota that needs some kind of big filter thing on it and he cant use. Meanwhile the neighbor in between is truck patching two forties with a 68 International diesel. I will stick with the old ones.

 

[MHarryE]

I farm on my own and also with my nephew. One thing, when I farm with him it is using my tractors (all Tier 4) because most of his are 80’s vintage. He has 17 because things like making hay don’t wait while you’re broke down and that’s pretty common. Engines, power train, noisy, smelly, smokey. He has added some new or slightly used over the past several years because his mom (my sister) started complaining about her raking tractors too much so he got her a new one. His dad has developed heart and lung problems (engine smoke plus dust - none of us in the family are smokers) so this year it was a used with working air conditioning. And he did add a Tier 4 about 4 years back for cattle feeding and general stuff - by far the most used tractor, and most reliable. Of course I’m talking about our operation and our experience.

But before retiring, I was an engineer for Allis-Chalmers, Case International, and Caterpillar. When did algae become a problem in diesel? Gleaner owners were fighting it from 1967 when I started until 1989 when I left for Case IH. Algae was one of the worst problems for Case IH combines during the 2 years I worked for them until we changed from Navistar to Cummins - then piston failures and replacing pistons, sleeves, etc., on all the 1991 production year engine overwhelmed anything else, and I left for Caterpillar. Not so many complaints until bio-diesel was mandated. Our groups problem was filter change frequency, not damage.

So now that I’ve been retired from my engineering job for 11 years and am farming instead, I have one non-Tier 4 engine. Remember I talked about Case IH and problems with the Cummins 1991 8.3 liter diesel? My combine is a Case IH 1992 with 8.3 Cummins and it scares me to death. The records I got from the previous owner show complete engine rebuild at 850 hours. It’s the only engine I have that needs oil added between changes, but I knew that when I bought it. With our 1991 piston fiasco, we changed to a ring style for 1992 that we knew would increase oil burning but also improve reliability. But a combine sits 11 months of the year. I can’t tie up money in something that sits idle that much. I can’t hire someone to harvest my grain - nobody around our location to do that. Now I’m the one they come to for custom harvest.

Some have complaint about emissions being a USA thing. The EU is tougher, and I have been away from the engineering side long enough I don’t know about Japan; however, at one time I needed my group to design an engine upgrade for Japan because unlike USA where most construction sites allow using old equipment, Japan’s Ministry of Commerce (MOC) dictated no non-latest emissions machines would be used on their jobs (most of Japan’s road construction). Normally contractors sold their equipment to 3rd world users, using brokers, but not possible as quickly as they needed so they asked for re-engining.

Most here are very happy with older equipment. This is just my side. I do know from my engineering experience at Caterpillar that more efficient injection needs higher pressure and higher pressures (30,000 psi vs 2,500) need cleaner, water free fuel. At Cat, we put a lot of development into filtration. My nephew,s and my New Holland’s and Kubotas, and my cousin’s Deere’s, all need filter replacement before scheduled. But — my Case IH combine with its old Cummins mechanical injection pump shut me down last year during harvest. Previous owner said always keep filters with you to minimize downtime during harvest so 15 minutes and I’m back running. Those things that never happened on the old engines - they did.

 

[DieselBound]

I have various equipment. Everything I have works very well. I try to keep up on maintenance: could be a bit better, though not likely much.

My Kioti, Tier IV, has run flawlessly, now 700 hrs: I've had non-engine issues which, thankfully, were dealt with through warranty. Folks should go back and see what folks were saying about the future for Tier IV machines in 2016 (when I got my Kioti). Many probably were forecasting utter disaster; yet, with 700 hrs on my Kioti there has been no such disasters (yes, some folks have had problems; there has been problems with everything, statistics tell us it's to be expected, and it's why warranties exist- to cover statistical anomalies).

Of everything I have, I regularly marvel at, and praise the most, my VW TDIs (ALH engines) the most. Computer controlled mechanical injection pumps. EGR valves and coolers have been left on all my TDIs: most cars I've gotten I've had to clean (four out of six? one was from a fellow TDI enthusiast who had already done the work), but once done zero issues. My car is 21 years old, nearing 220k miles and is getting (currently) over 55mpg and over 800 miles to a tank of fuel: I've logged just over 100k miles of fuel consumption and am averaging 51.5 mpg. Larger nozzles and a tune (the beauty of computer stuff is the ease in which fueling behaviors can be altered): it's a lot peppier than stock while still cranking out insane fuel mileage. I do all the work on these cars myself, but, the engines themselves require almost nothing (once I've gotten them up to my preferred spec it's then only a matter of regular maintenance on them, the engines).

My old 1993 Ford IDI (International diesel) puked a head gasket so I got a 1994 Dodge Cummins. The legendary 5.9L 12v, all mechanical. Can't say that it's any more or less reliable than anything else I have: it's not used a lot, so when it's needed it HAS to work.

My B7800 Kubota is the worst starting of all my diesels (my last valve adjustment probably made it worse!), but it otherwise works flawlessly. Stinky compared to my Kioti. But it nonetheless has its role and does it well as always.

And even my clatter-box Polaris Brutus just flat out works. The 24hp Yanmar is the noisiest thing on the planet. As long as the battery is charged (which is STILL the original from 2013!) it will fire right up. I have more concerns over this thing than anything else (I even my less concern that with my far more complex generator, which is circa 1993 [it's the electrical stuff that makes me a bit nervous, though I've ironed out all the issues with that; the Kubota engine is to die for for this application]).

Harry, I had an issue with water in my Kioti's fuel when I first had it. I went through everything I had looking for water, expecting my fuel storage tank to be the culprit, but nothing showed any water! It was the stupid cheesy/crappy locking fuel cap, letting rain water into the tank: dealer gave me a new, better one and the water issue has never resurfaced. I couldn't prove that it was the fuel cap. The proof came after noting that the problem completely went away when that cap was replaced. I have yet to see any traces of problems associated with my on-site fuel: tank is 150 gallons and I refill once a year, so fuel can hang out for quite a while.

 

[Hermio]

I know this could turn into a lengthy post. But I’m really care more for a short answer. What are the issues with tractors made after the post emissions technology? Are they more troublesome? More complicated for the backyard mechanic? Lost their simplicity?

That is why I bought a Mahindra. No DEF system to worry about.

 

[kpsp50]

Wrong as usual. Not everyone uses Common rail engines. Kukje/Branson still uses a fully mechanical engine with a fully mechanical injection VE pump. The only wire it gets to run is the one for the fuel shutoff solenoid. TYM is the same way on the models with the Kukje engine.

The kukje engine is an exact copy of the Cummins engine who started making the engine for Branson when they first started to make Branson tractor years ago then walked away with the agreement they could continue using the dies for the engine under a different name

 

[ljjhouser]

I supposed if you are concerned about using a little extra fuel or running the tractor at full rpms for 20 minutes, you might feel better to go pre t4. I have a Kubota. It is 2017 t4. It is also HST - L4701. Operation is like this. I operate it at 90-100% power (as recommended by the dealer). Sometimes, if it senses the need to burn particulate, it flashes the t4 light on the dash. I can choose - to accept that or reject it. I usually increase power to full until the light goes out. However, if you run the tractor with power, it is rare that it comes on. Maybe 40-50 hours. But if you run low or idle, it will need to burn more often. If you have rejected the the t4 (another button on the dash), then it will go to full power and regen when it has to. (usually when you want to shut it off). It had never been a problem for me. But others certainly feel different. But I would rather regen that have to buy the fluid - as in combines. But that is another for the same reason. But in the world today if you are prepared to pay the same or more for a older tractor with no financing and no dealer provided insurance, then you should do that. You are smart look for opinions about this. If you have a neighbor with t4 tractor, ask him also. He may show you how it impacts him if at all. As for maintenance problems with T4, I have not experienced any problems. Best wishes.

 

[BobInSD]

Are these issues worse in colder climates? I understand that you hear about the problems (people don't post/complain when everything works as expected) but I hear of significant issues locally, and "pre emissions" tractors bring a premium up here.

 

[ljjhouser]

Are these issues worse in colder climates? I understand that you hear about the problems (people don't post/complain when everything works as expected) but I hear of significant issues locally, and "pre emissions" tractors bring a premium up here.

Don't know. I have run my tractor in 20-40 degree weather, but not often. I also put a block heater (dealer install) to shorten warm up time. It may have an effect - T4 does require the engine to run somewhat hot to burn off particulates.

 

[Jstpssng]

I’ve started mine up at 10’ F and had it immediately want to regen. I didn’t like that part as it was inside at the time and I don’t like racing a cold engine. OTOH my last tractor wouldn’t start at those temps without a block heater.

 

[ericm979]

No Tier 4 tractors under 75hp use DEF. Tier 4 limits are lower (more strict) per hp above 75hp and that's where DEF is often used.