Post frame vs foundation

[s219]

Are screws into OSB adequate for holding siding? I'm pretty sure it's not for roofing, but maybe OK for siding. I like the idea of 2x4's mainly because you can use a good treated grade board, but maybe that doesn't matter much if your slab is well above grade.

I think so -- far less grippy fasteners are used to attach other siding products to OSB, so siding/roofing screws would be a big improvement in my eyes.

 

[jejeosborne]

Have you considered just building a standard post frame with the addition of metal on the inside? You could buy a lower grade metal for the interior and it would be both waterproof, and fire resistant not to mention the added sheer strength. You'd have a nice 8.5 inch cavity to fill with cellulose insulation too.

 

[mikehaugen]

I have gone over in my head many times the way that I would like to build a shop if I ever get the funds, and it is very similar to what you are proposing. I like the idea of the block wall around the bottom perimeter of the wall. The only downside I can think of with the raised block on the outside will be getting the walls onto them. Instead of just standing them up, you have to stand them up and lift them, which will require a crane or very creative use of your tractor. Also, you won't be able to build them on the concrete floor, unless you somehow don't build the whole wall at once.

Aside from maintenance, is there a reason not to use something like t1-11 instead of sheathing and steel?

Another consideration I had (since you are already starting with block) would be just to build the entire wall out of block. I haven't put a lot of thought into that idea so I don't know what the disadvantages would be or the cost difference would be.

 

[mikehaugen]

Have you considered just building a standard post frame with the addition of metal on the inside? You could buy a lower grade metal for the interior and it would be both waterproof, and fire resistant not to mention the added sheer strength. You'd have a nice 8.5 inch cavity to fill with cellulose insulation too.

I have metal siding on the inside of my garage, it was there when I bought the house. I really don't like it. It makes it more difficult to hang things on the wall. If you don't run the conduit/plumbing before hand, it makes doing that along the wall more difficult and crappy looking. It does have some advantages I suppose, but I don't think I would do it again. I think I would do osb for the first 8 ft, and depending on cost difference, maybe do drywall the rest of the way. I would also probably consider metal after 8 feet.

 

[Egon]

Screws come in different ratings. Not all are certified for streets conditions in building construction.

 

[jejeosborne]

I have metal siding on the inside of my garage, it was there when I bought the house. I really don't like it. It makes it more difficult to hang things on the wall. If you don't run the conduit/plumbing before hand, it makes doing that along the wall more difficult and crappy looking. It does have some advantages I suppose, but I don't think I would do it again. I think I would do osb for the first 8 ft, and depending on cost difference, maybe do drywall the rest of the way. I would also probably consider metal after 8 feet.

The OP wants something fire resistant and waterproof. I would think steel would be easier than concrete block to hang things from and to run electric behind. Heck, if you need to run electric or plumbing after the fact, just remove the steel with a few screws and put it back up when finished. Osb won't be waterproof or fire resistant which is what he is looking for. The steel also comes prepainted.

 

[LD1]

Have you considered just building a standard post frame with the addition of metal on the inside? You could buy a lower grade metal for the interior and it would be both waterproof, and fire resistant not to mention the added sheer strength. You'd have a nice 8.5 inch cavity to fill with cellulose insulation too.

I dont like metal inside other than ceiling and around the base. Like mike said, too hard to hang stuff, run utilities, add shelving etc.

My two current options are 1. Post frame conventional exterior, and 1 row of liner panel around the bottom of the inside and then OSB up from there. OR 2. Stick built with block foundation.Which I hadn't considered til just the other day when I posted this thread. I just (wrongfully so) assumed it would cost alot more, as that is what everyone says. Given that the cost is only a few hundred more on a ~$25k building, and no wood in the ground, is making me lean that way heavily.

I have gone over in my head many times the way that I would like to build a shop if I ever get the funds, and it is very similar to what you are proposing. I like the idea of the block wall around the bottom perimeter of the wall. The only downside I can think of with the raised block on the outside will be getting the walls onto them. Instead of just standing them up, you have to stand them up and lift them, which will require a crane or very creative use of your tractor. Also, you won't be able to build them on the concrete floor, unless you somehow don't build the whole wall at once.

Aside from maintenance, is there a reason not to use something like t1-11 instead of sheathing and steel?

Another consideration I had (since you are already starting with block) would be just to build the entire wall out of block. I haven't put a lot of thought into that idea so I don't know what the disadvantages would be or the cost difference would be.

I would do the walls in sections so they are manageable. And if needed, I can set with the assistance of the backhoe. Should be no problem. I dont like T1-11 for the maintenance issue. And the fact that it cost as much or more than steel.

As to not going block all the way, several reasons. 1. Harder to insulate. 2. Harder to run utilities 3. Just dont look as good IMO unless maintained and painted frequently. To get to the height I need, It would require another 18 courses of block. For a total of 3600+/- block. Not sure about going 24 row of 8" block. May require 12" block, and larger footer. Plus more expensive lintels, and in the end, would still have to do some type of stick frame to create a cavity for insulation.

 

[QRTRHRS]

The pole barn builder I used to haul for occasionally built one on a foundation. The "L" shaped brackets they used were sourced from some supplier and were made with welded plates then galvanized. I could not tell you the dimensions or what the post centers were. Been too long. They are a wholesale retail operation so I suppose you could contact them. PM me if you want contact info.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

how about wet set sturdiwall brackets, made to install posts on top of concrete?
https://www.permacolumn.com/what-are-sturdi-wall-brackets

 

[LD1]

All those heavy post brackets would make a post wall on top of a block wall just cost too much. I think I am just gonna stick with the conventional stud wall on top of foundation block. 5/8" j bolts in filled core. Sheathing will tie the top of the wall and will to the studs, and hurricane ties for the trusses. Probably use Simpson structural screws also instead of nails for holding power.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

With concrete foundation, I'd stud the walls also.

 

[MacLawn]

Eddie, calling old Eddie....:whistleblower:

That old boy knows his pole building. Me? I don't know much except wha' I like and want. I like the idea of poles on top of concrete pillars, but can't get much love.

 

[LD1]

Them concrete pillars cost almost as much as a foundation and block.

 

[KennyG]

If you build with block on a foundation, do you need to run anchor bolts all the way into the foundation or can you just embed them in the block? Is masonry enough to anchor the block to the foundation?

 

[s219]

If you build with block on a foundation, do you need to run anchor bolts all the way into the foundation or can you just embed them in the block? Is masonry enough to anchor the block to the foundation?

All the block foundations I have seen, the bottom blocks just rest on the footings with some mortar. In the end, the weight of everything will make it stay put. The only place I have seen some extra anchoring is around center sections of a garage wall between overhead doors, and it's often done with galvanized threaded rod that runs from the footing up through the block and then bolts to Simpson brackets that screw to wall studs. I think that is addressing an uplift requirement, but have not read up on the code so can't say for sure.

 

[LD1]

No code here. And never seen what you are talking about with the anchoring between garage doors for uplift. Just the normal j-bolt in a filled core. But there is a "frost wall" under the doors. So basically there is a 4-block full wall that only comes to grade, then the last two courses have the openings. Without the frostwall though, and just a skinny space between doors, I could see the need for something going all the way to the foundation.

 

[s219]

By some miracle, I have pics from our foundation work -- first one shows the threaded rods anchored in the footings:



Then this one shows the rods poking out of the block wall next to door openings (can also see the frost wall below):



I don't have a pic of the hold down brackets and framing, but they look similar to this Simpson product

Cold-Formed Steel: S/HDU Holdowns

Basically, that lags to the king studs adjacent to each door opening (with about a dozen 1/4" Simpson lags) and then bolts to the threaded rod.

At the time, I remember the code requirement was basically to help keep the garage end wall properly planted, since it has very little shear strength.

 

[LD1]

Never seen that done around here.

And the only short wall that I would have similar to that is gonna be between the garage door and the man door. And that space will likely be 3-4ft. in which case I will just rod and fill and install a J-bolt on each end. I think tying to the foundation would be overkill for me.

 

[s219]

Never seen that done around here.

And the only short wall that I would have similar to that is gonna be between the garage door and the man door. And that space will likely be 3-4ft. in which case I will just rod and fill and install a J-bolt on each end. I think tying to the foundation would be overkill for me.

Yeah, not saying it's a must, was just mentioning it in response to Kenney's question up above. The garage wall is the only place I've ever seen the anchors go directly into the footing like that. I did find a pic of the hold down ties:



I did some reading on it just now, and it looks like it was new in the 2009 code (R602.10.3.2) for "portal walls" such as on a garage end wall, to prevent racking from wind loads on the side walls or general seismic loads. Height of the openings comes into play, but in general, if the wall section is greater than 48" wide, sheathing and standard anchors is enough for shear resistance. If narrower than 48" (and narrowest allowed seems to be 16") then anchors down through the footings are required. Our garage portal wall has 5 narrow sections in the 16-24" wide range, which would explain all the anchors. More info here:

Wood Strong-Wall®: Garage Portal Systems on Concrete Foundations

 

[s219]

To get back on topic -- I forgot to add, seeing all the things we go through to add shear strength to framed walls does give one an appreciation for the pole barn method. With the posts 3-4' in the ground, you're already starting with a lot of shear strength and resistance to racking.