PTO generator

   / PTO generator #261  
Here is a question for some of your electric gurus...
When I am feeding the double pole 50A breaker in my main panel, does the incoming neutral balance the load between the two 120V legs? I watched a video where someone placed a wattage meter around each 120V leg to manually try and balalnce the loads. Isn't that the very function of a neutral? Dumb it down...I am no electrician.
 
   / PTO generator #262  
I just heard that NYC is going to even/odd gas rationing that's supposed to last a couple of weeks.
 
   / PTO generator #263  
Here is a question for some of your electric gurus...
When I am feeding the double pole 50A breaker in my main panel, does the incoming neutral balance the load between the two 120V legs? I watched a video where someone placed a wattage meter around each 120V leg to manually try and balalnce the loads. Isn't that the very function of a neutral? Dumb it down...I am no electrician.

The neutral does not "balance the load". I provides a current path for any 120 volt load. In theory if you had two 120 volt loads that were identical, and each was wired to separate hot legs, there would be no current flow in the neutral leg. However since the loads on each leg is never identical, current does flow through the neutral leg. So it is needed, unless you had only 240 volt loads.

paul
 
   / PTO generator #264  
The neutral does not "balance the load". I provides a current path for any 120 volt load. In theory if you had two 120 volt loads that were identical, and each was wired to separate hot legs, there would be no current flow in the neutral leg. However since the loads on each leg is never identical, current does flow through the neutral leg. So it is needed, unless you had only 240 volt loads.

paul

To further my understanding...could a generator be damaged if one leg had a much higher load than the other leg or is it just a case of efficiency? Can each leg only supply 1/2 of the rated watts of the generator? Would a wattage meter for each leg be a wide investment when supplying generator power to a home in an attempt to manually balance the load?

I sincerely appreciate your time and consideration.
 
   / PTO generator #265  
To further my understanding...could a generator be damaged if one leg had a much higher load than the other leg or is it just a case of efficiency? Can each leg only supply 1/2 of the rated watts of the generator? Would a wattage meter for each leg be a wide investment when supplying generator power to a home in an attempt to manually balance the load?

I sincerely appreciate your time and consideration.

Each leg can supply 1/2 of the available power, as you stated. You can use the full output with 120 volt loads, if they are connected to each leg and neutral. Of course 240 volt loads is a balanced current on both legs. To answer your base question, will not damage the generator with unbalanced loads. If one leg is loaded enough to exceed the current rating on one leg, you are in a risky area, but you should have a circuit breaker on each leg which should prevent overloads on each leg independently. There is no real loss of efficiency if the loads are unbalanced. Just think of it like your panel box. Your main breaker will allow full rated current on each leg. Full power available occurs only when you pull full current from both legs. In the panel box, usually there is some effort to balance loads on both legs. Same on the generator, you should try to balance the loads on each leg so as not to overload one leg. Note overload, which implies in excess of full load.

paul
 
   / PTO generator #266  
Can each leg only supply 1/2 of the rated watts of the generator? Would a wattage meter for each leg be a wide investment when supplying generator power to a home in an attempt to manually balance the load?

The short answer to your question is yes. If you look at your generator, you will find that there are breakers for each of the circuits. For example, my generator has four breakers: one for each leg of the 240 receptacle and one for each of two 120 receptacles. The generator is a 5000 watt generator, which is just over 20 amps at 240 volts. Each of the two 240-volt breakers is 20 amps, which means that each leg of the 240-volt connection can provide 20 amps without popping the breaker. Each leg of the 240-volt service provides up to half of the generator's rated capacity, as you suggest.

This actually came into play when I was shopping for the generator. Before I bought this one, I bought a smaller one... perhaps 2000 or 3000 watts or something, which was just enough capacity to do what I wanted. Because each of the two 120-volt receptacles could only provide half the rated capacity, it wasn't enough to run the appliance(s) I wanted to run, because some of the appliances would exceed half the rated capacity and blow the breakers. This absolutely comes into play when sizing a generator, because (basically) all generators will be rated based on their 240-volt output, because that's what the alternator puts out. So if you need to run a 120-volt appliance that pulls 2000 watts, don't buy a 2500 watt generator. Each leg of the 120 service will only be able to provide 1250 watts. You need to size a single 120-volt leg of the generator to run your biggest 120-volt appliance, or whatever your biggest simultaneous load is going to be.

Additionally, you should consider the size of the breakers on the 120 receptacles if you plan to run a lot of 120 appliances directly off the generator. A good generator will have a big enough breaker to allow the full potential of the generator on each of the 120 legs, but that isn't always the case. For example, a 3000 watt generator works out to 12.5 amps. The 120 receptacles may only have 10 amp breakers, meaning that if you're pulling off the 120 receptacles, even if you perfectly balance the load, you'll only ever get 10 amps, or 2400 watts. The extra 600 watts that you paid for will only get used if you are running a 240 appliance. This can be circumvented by using a Y-cord that plugs into the 240 receptacle and manually splits out each leg of the service into separate 120 receptacles. Again: not all generators are designed this way. Quality ones will have the appropriate breaker size on the 120 receptacles. But do check! It doesn't matter what the rated capacity of the generator is if the breakers will prevent you from actually using it. This whole paragraph is moot if you are pulling 240 off the generator and not running 120 appliances directly off the receptacles in the generator.

I'm not familiar with the practical effects of an unbalanced load on a generator, but I do know that you need to make sure that neither leg is overloaded with 120 appliances. Ideally, the load on the two legs would be more or less balanced. For 240 appliances, this is not an issue, since they use both legs of the 240 service simultaneously (that's a poor way of putting it, but it'll do for the time being).
 
   / PTO generator #267  
Thank you posters for some excellent information!:thumbsup:
 
   / PTO generator #268  
For less than $10 at Harbor Freight you can get one that does the same: Digital Clamp-On Multimeter (note that you can only go over one leg of the wire going to the pump. If you go over both legs it doesn't read anything).

Aaron Z
Does this item have a peak hold feature?
 
   / PTO generator #270  
... It should be noted that this is a 3phase setup and may also be driving 120V or 208V single phase loads of unknown torque demand. The 3phase loads have less surge. The others, proportionately higher but not known from his post.
larry

So when I clamp each leg of the 3 phase separately, do I just add the three surge readings together or take the highest surge reading and multiply by three?
 
   / PTO generator #271  
So when I clamp each leg of the 3 phase separately, do I just add the three surge readings together or take the highest surge reading and multiply by three?

To find watts with 3 phase, take the current, I would use the average of the 3 legs, and:

Voltage x current x 1.73 =watts; divide by 1000 for KW

The 1.73 is a factor (sqrt of 3) in order to correctly determine power in a 3 phase system.

paul
 
   / PTO generator #272  
fred239 said:
So when I clamp each leg of the 3 phase separately, do I just add the three surge readings together or take the highest surge reading and multiply by three?

Nope, doesn't work that way. You have to rely on manufactures spec sheets. Even clipping it with a meter can be wrong. usually the better the meter, the faster response time, will clip a higher current on the same tested load.
 
   / PTO generator #273  
So when I clamp each leg of the 3 phase separately, do I just add the three surge readings together or take the highest surge reading and multiply by three?

Nope, doesn't work that way. You have to rely on manufactures spec sheets. Even clipping it with a meter can be wrong. usually the better the meter, the faster response time, will clip a higher current on the same tested load.

To find watts with 3 phase, take the current, I would use the average of the 3 legs, and:

Voltage x current x 1.73 =watts; divide by 1000 for KW

The 1.73 is a factor (sqrt of 3) in order to correctly determine power in a 3 phase system.

paul
fred, I assume you will have a clamp meter with Peak Hold capability and will take the opportunity to play, think, and re play. Your biggest threat will be starting a hi draw motor when the system is already running a variety of loads. I know you have 3phase, but are all motor loads 3 phase? Is there a single stage air compressor or a big freezer. These could stall if their phase browns too badly ... and even if not stalling outright they would slow and draw more current on "their" phase, thus unbalancing the genny load. Your elevator motor should indicate virtually identical draw on all phases. You will be able to check its surge and running load and verify its balance in both situations. Then you could make measurements at your service panel input of your normal load on each ph, then your startup of the elevator combined [due reactive effects of other/normal loads this will not be a strict addition of elevator surge to the already measured normal load], and finally the continuous full steady state load. The last appears to be 21KW as I see it from the previous discussion.
... This info, and other combinations that you might see fit, will supply grist for better decisions on a minimal system.
larry
 
   / PTO generator #274  
Diesel can be stored for years if you keep moisture out as much as possible. An additive for fungus and to resist gelling is recommended. I have about 100 gal of heating oil for my kubota powered 10 KW genset. Sandy left us w/o power for about 70 hours. Ran the gen non stop on 1 yr old diesel with no problem. i also use the diesel for my tractor, but only fill about once a year. We sat in comfort and barely heard the genset running. 3 zones of geothermal heat pump worked flawlessly, as did the fridges, freezer, well, etc.

paul

Around here this is no longer possible since they addition of 5% biodiesel, so if you need long term storage diesel I have heard that you can possibly get straight diesel for standby generators. They are now recomending a 30-60 day turnover of the diesel fuel stock.

David Kb7uns
 
   / PTO generator #275  
Around here this is no longer possible since they addition of 5% biodiesel, so if you need long term storage diesel I have heard that you can possibly get straight diesel for standby generators. They are now recomending a 30-60 day turnover of the diesel fuel stock.

David Kb7uns

Is your home heating oil bio also?
ac
 
   / PTO generator #276  
Is your home heating oil bio also?
ac

As little a market there is for home heating oil out here I would suspect it is just dyed diesel fuel now. We do not even have a station in town that delivers it is all cardlock now.
This is the primary reason I went with a 20KW propane standby generator the propane does not degrade with time, we are only doing 40 hours per year average so far.

I went and checked on the state website and there is an exemption for home heating oil for the 5%, but the trick is finding it all the heating oil vendors are pushing between B20 and B100 heating oil.

And remember us Oregonians are too stupid to figure out the use of a gas pump, we must have a state trained high school dropout do it.

David Kb7uns
 
   / PTO generator #277  
As little a market there is for home heating oil out here I would suspect it is just dyed diesel fuel now. We do not even have a station in town that delivers it is all cardlock now.
This is the primary reason I went with a 20KW propane standby generator the propane does not degrade with time, we are only doing 40 hours per year average so far.

I went and checked on the state website and there is an exemption for home heating oil for the 5%, but the trick is finding it all the heating oil vendors are pushing between B20 and B100 heating oil.

And remember us Oregonians are too stupid to figure out the use of a gas pump, we must have a state trained high school dropout do it.

David Kb7uns

Wow, in NJ HHO is EVERYWHERE...and we are too dumb to pump our own gas too!

ac
 
   / PTO generator #279  
they are getting out of the PTO generator business. I bought out about the last 40-50 PTO generators they built, but they are done manufacturing. The company (Dynatech) is still in business and doing fine, they will continue to stand behind any warranty claims. They just where not finding the business profitable any longer.

Neil,

I checked out your website just now fro those Toger PTO Generators and the site states you are sold out of the PTO genny's.

If Tiger is not Mfg any more of them, how are you going to get more ?

Has DynaTech agreed to build more for you ?

Thanks, Tim
 
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   / PTO generator #280  
This digital monitor comes with 4 wrap around clamps 2 large and 2 small. I clamped one around each of the incoming load legs from the meter. The probes then plug into the back of a small transmitter that will send the signal a couple of hundred feet to the receiver. It gives a read out in real time and stores a 2 year log I believe. The whole shebang is battery powered.

View attachment 287963


PineRige
do you have a link this meter sounds interesting

tom
 

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