Quality of Electricity Supply....

[Gale Hawkins]

Your numbers are great, even though math is hard. Using numbers like those, I think we could say with certainty (in 1985) that the personal computer industry will be a complete failure!

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It's so strange that I so often see many people in this country (the one that once put a man on the moon) say something cannot be done, it's impossible ("Not going to happen") ; while other countries are actually doing it today!
(Be it energy, or healthcare, or many other issues)

I now agree with your thoughts on this but not before the light bulb came on for me. Like some others I thought EV's were dead on arrival.

After I read what was happening in Europe and China I realized I was just ignorant about the future of EV's. Monday I drove over 200 miles to touch and drive my first EV which was a 2016 Nissan Leaf SL with 21K miles. My son made me take our 2010 F-150 tow vehicle so in case I bought he would not be roped into driving me back to pick it up.

He was right. I bought the Leaf that I went to see and for $100 rented a local U-Haul car trailer and got home with the first EV that I ever touched about 11 PM Monday night.

Driving it like an experience I had never known in my 68 years. The ride, feel and power is addicting in my case. With range going up when slowing down without the use of the brakes is a good feeling because I am not wearing out the brakes and turning that spent energy to get moving into just heat when I stop or just slow down.

No I do not plan to get rid of the 2010 F-150 with the tow rating of 10.2K to move things like old tractors to events. However I never plan to buy a non EV for daily use. Now I want three more of the wife, daughter and son.

I now personally understand negative remarks about how EV's will never go over (including mine until recently) come from just not having the real facts. The quality of the electricity supply is not a real concern of mine today locally.

While the 30 kwa battery in the Leaf is only rated at 107 mile range our typically daily round trips are only 30-60 miles and we have a ton of gas vehicles. The F-150 with the last 5.4L got 19.1 MPG going empty at interstate speeds. Coming home with the car hauler on the interstate I averaged 11.2 and on two lane roads it was 14.8 MPG so I am OK with those numbers.

For the a person with a good gas car moving to an EV may not be cost effective by any standards. Pouring out 8 of ever 10 gallons of gas that I burn to move my butt down the road is starting to matter to me since only 20% of the gas goes to moving the car since my family is driving 90K+ annually.

The power grid is a factor but I plan to move to solar energy storage to recharge EV's one of these day.

Thanks for your refreshing post.

 

[Grumpycat]

Your numbers are great, even though math is hard. Using numbers like those, I think we could say with certainty (in 1985) that the personal computer industry will be a complete failure!

View attachment 624838

It's so strange that I so often see many people in this country (the one that once put a man on the moon) say something cannot be done, it's impossible ("Not going to happen") ; while other countries are actually doing it today!
(Be it energy, or healthcare, or many other issues)

I think you missed the point about "You might break even if you buy battery storage based on value. Automobile EV batteries are too expensive." Multi-use of one's car battery is a losing proposition.

The incremental cost of a 13 kWh Tesla Powerwall is $7500. A Tesla Energy Gateway is required in addition. Plus there is the problem of authorized installers demanding a premium price for their service.

 

[Grumpycat]

It is good to read stories written from a different point of view than my mindset. Canada has always intrigued me.

Western civilizations may be as fried as the world with electric grids. Time will tell.

We read about businesses in some countries using Power Wall like solutions from Tesla and others. Some are dirt cheap non lithium ion based as well.

Price grid-grade lead-acid batteries just for fun. Ain't cheap. Supposedly caveman simple lead plates in acid but getting the right alloy of lead for deep cycle and long term service is not that simple. I have been studying options for battery backed PV and currently lithium is winning. Lithium permits deeper cycles, more often, than lead. For reliable long term use a lead battery can not be discharged below 50% so one must buy much more lead capacity. So much so that lithium may have a cost advantage, and definitely has a low maintenance advantage.

My goal is to use hydrogen energy from the sun to power our EV's that we will be getting. Tesla is doing this today to fuel some of their Super Chargers.

As a student of Tesla for over 7 years, former investor, and car owner since 2013, I say Tesla does a lot of stupid things. A lot of stupid arrogant "I'm an intellectual and I have thought on the matter and reached the one any only right possible answer!" Such as their automobile production line. They knew everything yet had never built an automobile before. Paid the price.

The storage of solar power is on the way to becoming dirt cheap because size and weight is a not issue for land owners. Solar panels are becoming more efficient all of the time. Charge up the storage during the day and dump it into the EV's the next early morning so the storage batteries are more depleted so they will charge faster from the hydrogen energy heading their way.

Hydrogen is a fool's errand. As an engineer I say, "It got us to the moon. But NASA's idea of an acceptable cost is astronomical." Hydrogen is a terribly inefficient energy storage medium. Even if fuel cells drop in cost by 100x the electrical energy to produce H2 by electrolysis is much greater than if one simply stored the power in batteries.

95% of the hydrogen produced today comes from natural gas. Costs too much otherwise.

Selling back to the grid could make charging EV's, etc FREE long term perhaps but with a steep up front cost. Using the grid from 11 pm to 5 am is cheaper for some people.

But use of a battery is not free. There are capital costs and wear costs.

 

[Grumpycat]

One think I like about modern solar (large-scale furnace) designs, is the relative simplicity - once the the steam is generated, everything else that follows is stone-stock-standard utility design. Don't re-invent the wheel.....

The other really great thing is the birds those solar furnaces cook in flight. If only we could efficiently make those birds fall into a pot ready to eat....

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Hydrogen is a fool's errand. As an engineer I say, "It got us to the moon. But NASA's idea of an acceptable cost is astronomical." Hydrogen is a terribly inefficient energy storage medium. Even if fuel cells drop in cost by 100x the electrical energy to produce H2 by electrolysis is much greater than if one simply stored the power in batteries.

95% of the hydrogen produced today comes from natural gas. Costs too much otherwise.

The hydrogen based energy coming our way was in reference to the sun (solar energy). Yes Tesla does dumb stuff like Apple with Lisa. While companies like Tesla may be dumb they are making EV's mainstream technology thankfully.

I have only be driving my Nissan Leaf for two days but there is no way I want to go back to pumping gas for area trips and hope to add three more EV's into the family.

 

[buickanddeere]

One think I like about modern solar (large-scale furnace) designs, is the relative simplicity - once the the steam is generated, everything else that follows is stone-stock-standard utility design. Don't re-invent the wheel.....

Used to work in a building with an airplane engine on the roof. No, I wouldn't want the fuel bill.....

Rgds, D.

The mirrors shining onto a collector or boiler sounds great . However no system has been commercially viable .
How much power Do you think they generate per dayoutside of that prime 8 hour window ? How about regions with weak sunlight or perpetual cloud cover ?

 

[buickanddeere]

Port Augusta solar thermal power plant scrapped after failing to secure finance - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)



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How solar-energy dreams became a nightmare for the small Ontario town of Blind River | Ottawa Citizen

 

[buickanddeere]

Port Augusta solar thermal power plant scrapped after failing to secure finance - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)



Error - Cookies Turned Off


How solar-energy dreams became a nightmare for the small Ontario town of Blind River | Ottawa Citizen

 

[3930dave]

The other really great thing is the birds those solar furnaces cook in flight. If only we could efficiently make those birds fall into a pot ready to eat....

:laughing:.... reminds me of the "bird fatality" #'s for wind turbines..... something like 0.5 birds per year......

If we really wanted to do something for birds, we'd take down all skyscrapers.......

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

The mirrors shining onto a collector or boiler sounds great . However no system has been commercially viable .
How much power Do you think they generate per dayoutside of that prime 8 hour window ? How about regions with weak sunlight or perpetual cloud cover ?

Spain is the biggest so far.

PS1 solar power plant - Wikipedia

Being the first, the #'s don't look that bad.... payback looks to be < 7 years.

Right Tool for the Job - no, I wouldn't recommend an installation for the windward side of a mountain range.....

Rgds, D.