Refueling effort

/ Refueling effort #61  
Just saw Tom's post. If the refrigerator were ever to be plugged in and you had vapors inside, you just made a nice bomb with the thermostat and light as detonators. Somewheer I have pictures of 2000+ sqft rooms destroyed by a refrigerator blowing up because someone put a flammable inside of a regular refrigerator.

This makes me also realize that since we have flammable rated refrigerators, we do have flammable storage that seals as tight as a refrigerator. For anything stinky/dangerous, we stick the refrigerator in a HIGHLY ventillated room since the concentrations of vapors are reasonably high in these units even though the bottles are sealed. I have also attached centralized temperature alarms to these units so we can remove chemicals before they warm up and become dangerous. In refrigerators or freezers, we only store chemicals that are dangerous when warm or degrade at room temperature.

Ken
 
/ Refueling effort #62  
ksimolo said:
I am not sure I like that idea. Most fire experts like non-vented flammable storage. From a chemists perspective however, I do not like the large concentrations of vapors that can build up causing exposure and possibly fire hazards when opened. I would rather risk greater property damage to a detached building in the unlikely instance of a fire than the daily(?) exposures resulting from opening the cabinet. Harder call if you have an attached garage but then I do not like attached garages because of the greater risks even if they are convenient.

We work with some potentially dangerous chemicals in small quantities (other than solvents) but our researchers get exposed to more chemicals when they fill their car's gas tank than working all week in their lab. Good ventillation helps prevent problems if something is not going as it should.

Also, I do not know that we have any flammable storage cabinets that seal as tightly as a refrigerator.

Just my personal opinion. Obviously, the experts can respond better.

Ken

Ken, I failed to mention that the storage locker/refrigerator is outside. If it would be better to ventilate it, that can be arranged but my guess was that excluding ventilation would quickly stop a fire due to lack of oxygen.. My garage and shop each have 1/2 of an attached wing of the house. We have two layers of 5/8 "fire rock" between the garage and shop and between the shop and house as well as monitored fire sensors as part of the cell phone backed up monitored security system.

I know that attached garages and or shops are a risk and tried to manage that risk. A fire in the garage would be detected long before it got to the shop which would have to propagate the fire to the house proper before things got totally out of hand.

I am currently in the beginning stages of enclosing a 21x48 ft (open on one long side) shed roof covered space on the side of the shop/garage (36x48) so that I can separate metal working from wood working. Not only will the wood projects be happy to not have metal dust on them. I will be happy to weld where there is less sawdust and kindling.

I do not store gas or diesel in the garage or shop (except in the vehicles fuel tanks. After I enclose the shed I will need to find another way to store premixed gas and such as I will not store it in an enclosed space that is attached to the house. I suppose I will have to get a metal locker/cabinet or build something to hold the "gas cans" if the refrigerator gets too full. I prefer keeping fueling operations out of doors as I seem to always spill at least a little and sometimes more.

I am sensitive to air quality issues and intend to design a sort of fume hood for welding projects that will fit into the zone serviced by the exhaust system. Similarly I will be hanging plastic curtains around my spray painting area and exhausting contaminated air at a prodigious rate. Weather permitting I have been spray painting outside but will welcome the "spray booth."

Pat
 
/ Refueling effort #63  
Pat,

From NFPA 30 Code on wood flammable liquid cabinet construction....


(c)Wooden cabinets constructed in the following manner shall be acceptable. The bottom, sides, and top shall be constructed of exterior grade plywood that is at least 1 in. (2.5 cm) thick and of a type that will not break down or delaminate under fire conditions. All joints shall be rabbetted and shall be fastened in two directions with wood screws. Where more than one door is used, there shall be a rabbetted overlap of not less than 1 in. (2.5 cm). Doors shall be equipped with a means of latching and hinges shall be constructed and mounted in such a manner as to not lose their holding capacity when subjected to fire exposure. A raised sill or pan capable of containing a 2 in. (5 cm) depth of liquid shall be provided at the bottom of the cabinet to retain spilled liquid within the cabinet.
 
/ Refueling effort #64  
Pat,

Spray painting is hazardous stuff. Here is a link to NFPA Code, take a look at NFPA 33 for Spray Painting. This code is referenced by all the model fire prevention codes. Also if u want more detailed info on flammable liquids check out NFPA 30. I have my nose into these codes all the time, nice reading if u can not fall asleep.:D This is what any insurance/fire department investigator is going to reference should a fire ever occur. They will compare what was required by code and what was in place that did not comply with these codes. Happy reading.:)

List of NFPA Codes and Standards

Click on the code you want

Then go to the bottom of the page and click on "Preview this document".

Then click I agree

Then click on the code you choose at the bottom of the page.
 
/ Refueling effort #65  
Hi Pat,

I have no problem with it being outside especially if you open it and step aside for a few seconds. Are vandals an issue?

Ken
 
/ Refueling effort #66  
patrick_g said:
I have recently procurred an old refrigerator to use as a flammable storage locker and by removing some shelves can accomodate 5 gal fuel cans as well as the smaller ones for premixed fuel for the collection of 2 stroke engines. .
Pat

I've been using an old junk refrigerator or deep freeze for this for 41 years
 
/ Refueling effort #68  
Well, gee thanks for all the inputs, concern, and suggestions. But really guys, even if the used refer still had a compressor I wouldn't be plugging it in to refrigerate my flammables, nor will I rewire it to plug it in to get the convenience of the lights. I am slightly aware of the electrical sparks made by the cheap unsealed door switch that controls the lights.

Regarding the fumes. I am aware of the problems with concentrated fumes and probably would not stick my head deep into the container and take a deep breath. Quite the contrary, I typically take a breath before opening a container of a volatile substance and slowly exhale for a while. I have better than average lung capacity.

Now as regards the vandals... not my problem, if they want to stick their heads in and take a deep breath, I don't care. I'm not going to suffer the inconvenience of a lock to protect a vandal's lungs.

OK, just kidding about the vandals breathing the fumes. Vandals are always possible but I have lots of things more valuable to take than a gal of premix or even the old frige itself. I have a half mile of highway frontage and have had two thinks stolen in 7 years, both of which were up near the highway sitting out in sight of passers by. My house is over a quarter mile off the highway.

I have the ability to wire any number of things to the alarm system in a series chain like cheap Christmas tree lights. If any of them are "disturbed" the alarm goes off. I only know that it is an item in the series chain, not which item. Since I only use that for certain selected items in one general location I don't need to know which item. I could include the storage locker in that loop and it would set off the alarm if opened without disarming (at least) that zone.

Thanks for the references to the codes. I typically surpass most building/electrical/plumbing codes and always try to at least meet them.

I do have the occasional nit to pick with codes and folks enforcing them without understanding the intent of the authors. Regarding the code in the case of the flammable storage locker made of plywood. What kind of plywood is it that is referred to anyway?

Please name a kind of plywood that is "of a type that will not break down or delaminate under fire conditions" as I don't have any experience with plywood that won't break down or delaminate in a fire. I did buy several 5 gal pails of "water glass" AKA sodium silicate to coat OSB and other materials potentially subject to welding sparks.

If I build a flammable storage cabinet, flammable will refer to the contents, not the enclosure. I would prefer to build it out of steel and site it so it could let the contents entirely burn without a danger of the fire spreading. This only requires a very small berm around it to contain spills from fire ruptured containers. If the berm is relatively porous (sand inside a single course of cinder blocks with weep holes) water will run out, over time, but short duration events like burning liquids, especially more viscous ones will most likely burn up before leaking through in quantity.

Old chest type freezers and upright freezers and refrigerators seem to be a cheap, simple, and satisfactory way to recycle something destined for the landfill as well as provide really good flammable material storage. (Of course, not plugged in and running nor used to simultaneously store electrically fired blasting caps and running Whilmhurst or Van de Graff electrostatic generators. ;) ;)

It is VERY IMPORTANT that if you use any refrigerator that has a door latch and or can't be easily opened from the inside that it is thoroughly "CHILD PROOFED." You just never know. A kid can get inside a refer in a heartbeat and succumb to asphyxiation before they are found. It doesn't have to be your kid or grandkid, any kid is the wrong kid to let into the enclosure. For uprights, just about any added latch located high up or on top of the door will prevent kids from getting inside, especially if there isn't a convenient step stool substitute nearby.

As to the build up of concentrated vapors inside the refer... If it is sited outside and you don't stick your head in and intentionally inhale them, I think it is a no harm no foul situation. I guess I could sit down at a graphics application and author some warning labels to post on the refer but that is a different thread.

Pat

Pat
 
/ Refueling effort #70  
davitk said:
Brilliant minds certainly do think alike.

;)

Actually it seemed like a no brainer to me... steel, air tight, free...

And then there was a wave of elevated concern about all those concentrated vapors, explosions from plugging it in, warts, tight shoes, delayed borgrythmia(sp) I almost lost it but with a couple PM's offering counseling and support I was able to recover and press on.

Pat
 
/ Refueling effort #71  
patrick_g said:
Actually it seemed like a no brainer to me... steel, air tight, free...

And then there was a wave of elevated concern about all those concentrated vapors, explosions from plugging it in, warts, tight shoes, delayed borgrythmia(sp) I almost lost it but with a couple PM's offering counseling and support I was able to recover and press on.

Pat
Somehow I've always felt that If I had my druthers I'd druther loose a refrigerator than my house garage or pole building.
Could it be I've been wrong all these long 41 years and should have been risking my house garage or pole building instead of a lowly old junk refrigerator?
== L B ==.
 
/ Refueling effort #72  
Wow are we getting lazy or what ??:confused:

Remember when you had no tractor, just a wheel barrow and a shovel:eek:
 
/ Refueling effort #74  
Hey, LB, maybe we should seek professional help or at least voluntarily enroll in a 12 step program (maybe I could start with just a 6 step program and work up towards 12, I have trouble remembering complicated stuff) until we come to our senses. More's the pity that we didn't realize the error of our ways when using a cheap/free air tight steel box located away from our residence or other expensive structure out of a misguided desire to improve our fire safety/risk profile.

Now, after receiving some enlightenment through beneficial exposure to fire code suggestions such as building a storage box for flammable materials out of plywood instead of using a free airtight steel box, I feel much better or will when SOMEONE TELLS ME what kind of plywood does not delaminate in a fire.

But seriously... I really would like to know what plywood was intended for use in flammable storage structures as I might want to build something like that some time or to be able to knowledgeably pass the info on to others. Old freezers and friges are not always the best/only answer.

Pat
 
/ Refueling effort #75  
keving said:
That is beautiful. Can you provide an approx cost, source and capacity?

Thanks!

The cost of my setup was about $1000. I know it will never pay for itself but I like the convenience. The tank holds 300 gallons. I replaced a gravity feed tank this year that I had for 30 years. I wanted the pump because I plan on eventually having all diesel cars. Then I'll fill it with taxable fuel. The pump also allows me to use a 2 micron filter which would run pretty slow on a gravity feed system.

The tank is single wall with a pan under it. I got it from our local Farm Service guy. They fill it as well.
 
/ Refueling effort #76  
Patrick, I cannot tell you exactly which plywood they use, but I can tell you that it just appears as extra thick, very fine grade multiply wood.

Doubt that really helps much, and it also has the specs for steel in there as well, and certainly there are many more steel flam lockers out there then there are the wooden ones.

That said, some of the corrosive lockers that we buy are wood, as in some of those instances, the wood tends to hold up better and have less potential other hazards associated with it.

As another side note, flam lockers also are often vented, and I do not believe I have ever seen one that was "airtight" Most flam lockers I am familiar with have vent plugs (usually a weld in 2" bung) with at least one high, and one low to allow cross ventilation of the flam locker.

I would have to go back into the regs to find the citation, but I believe that one part of the thinking on the flam locker was also to keep the fire away from the flammables as in the temp inside a bit cooler and flames away, so that they would not ignite. Kind of like a two hour fire door.

Not sure if that makes sense or not and the way I am explaining it, but if you will, it gives the fire department a bit of time before the "fuel" gets added to the fire.

That said, the most straight forward thing I think folks should do is to identify where their problems are, and then post an NFPA 704 (that square on point red, white, blue and yellow thing you see on warehouses and such) with appropriate numbers on a hazard area. While it does not tell them exactly what they are facing, it gives them a heads up of the danger level that they should expect.
 
/ Refueling effort #77  
Alan,

NFPA 30 does not require the storage cabinet to be vented. My experience is most are not. However, if they are vented they must be steel pipe to the outside of the building. When I look at flammable cabinets I check that the bungs are tight in place and if not they are vented properly.

Check out this fire adjacent to a cabinet which started in a refrigerator with flammable liquids.

Google Image Result for http://www2.umdnj.edu/eohssweb/aiha/images/fire.h1.jpg

This one is even better a fire starting in a room with a cabinet, outside of the cabinet has fire damage, inside the cabinet is fine.

Google Image Result for http://ehs.ucsc.edu/emergency/images/cabinet.JPG
 
/ Refueling effort #78  
patrick_g said:
Hey, LB, maybe we should seek professional help
Pat

Great idea!! We can set up a LB/PG help fund and I'll be treasurer! :D Here's the first contribution - sorry it's only 2 cents.
 
/ Refueling effort #79  
NY_Yankees_Fan said:
Allen,

NFPA 30 does not require the storage cabinet to be vented. My experience is most are not. However, if they are vented they must be steel pipe to the outside of the building. When I look at flammable cabinets I check that the bungs are tight in place and if not they are vented properly.

Any of you actual certified fire protection experts want to make a comment regarding a freezer or refrigerator used as a flammable liquids storage locker when it is placed outside away from buildings and combustible materials?

Is it a good idea, bad idea, unknown, worse than x but better than y (commonly understood substitutions for x and y please) as that would be useful information.

I''m not a member of a religious cult based on recycling household appliances. I just though metal, air tight(mostly), and cheap or free was a good candidate for flammables storage lockers. If they are a bomb waiting for a chance to go off or if they have other dangerous attributes, I'd be happy to build a storage cabinet or ventilate the frige or...

There are cheap little solar powered fans designed to cool a car parked in the sun which could be adapted to ventilate a reefer when the sun shines (when it might need venting the most.)

I guess I'm looking for a definitive statement appraising the use of a recycled appliance for flammable storage so I can make an informed decision to keep or replace it.

Thanks for sharing your specialized knowledge.

Pat
 
/ Refueling effort #80  
davitk said:
Great idea!! We can set up a LB/PG help fund and I'll be treasurer! :D Here's the first contribution - sorry it's only 2 cents.

Cash, check, money order accepted. Cash or reasonable facsimile preferred (not so reasonable facsimiles will be referred to the Treasury Department. Give big give often, the need is great!

Pat
 

Marketplace Items

UNUSED WOLVERINE BC-13-72W 72" HYD BRUSH CUTTER (A62131)
UNUSED WOLVERINE...
2013 Freightliner CASCADIA DAY CAB (A59575)
2013 Freightliner...
(INOP) BROCE BW260 SWEEPER (A62129)
(INOP) BROCE BW260...
1996 Sunflower 1543-38 Folding Disk (A63118)
1996 Sunflower...
New/Unused 7ft Fork Extension (A61166)
New/Unused 7ft...
120 GALLON WATER TANK (A62131)
120 GALLON WATER...
 
Top