Running Water Lines

[Keoke]

Robert, one additional tip, when using PVC with flared ends, put the flare open (female) end towards the discharge side of the pump or water source.
This will have the water running into the bevel flare instead of the squared off protrusion of the male pipe at the splice. Granted not a big deal, but it cost nothing and on a long water line it will cut down on overall friction loss.

cheers,
george

 

[_RaT_]

Thanks Joe for the info. I do not know much about PE. I have installed systems up to 12" PVC but not much with PE except for drip systems. You nailed the explanation regarding friction loss. As velocity increases in the pipe, not only is friction a factor, but high velocitys also are hard on electric valves, cause problems on the inside of elbows, and as mentioned, create a greater pressure loss. Many times you will see a 1" supply feeding 1.5", 2" etc irrigation lines. Its all about GPM.

 

[EddieWalker]

I'm not a big fan of the poly pipes. To be honest, I think they are far inferior and should never be used.

There are a few diferent types, but anything that comes in black rolls is a poly to me.

Plenty of cities use them along with landscapers. It's easy, cheap and fast to install. Up front, it's much cheaper.

My issue is in reliability. Over time, it is more prone to rupture. Ground movement will wear down a spot fairly quickly. I'm convinced the utility company that insalls poly pipe is just creating job security.

Here in Tyler, there is a crew that is on call 24/7 to repair water line breaks in poly pipe. While repairing a leak in front of a house I owned, I asked how many breaks they deal with. I was told they keep very busy. Then I asked why the city used the poly pipe. I was told it was required for a period of time, and now they have so much in the ground it's too expensive to replace it. They learned the hard way.

SCH 40 is so much thicker then the poly pipes that it isn't even something you can compare. If you use good glue and clean your joints, SCH 40 will out live all of us. You can't say that for any of the poly pipes.

Eddie

 

[Alan L.]

Thanks for all the great responses. What I have learned is that I should upsize to 2". Some like the black poly, but have no experience with it and I just don't see it used around here much. I do see bell ended PVC alot, although I was thinking of using the straight ended pipe with unions. The bell ends should be better - although they might be more expensive.

I haven't worked with the black poly, and so I would probably be leaning to the PVC.

Looks like I probably should not run 115V wire in the same trench with the water line. Where do you get the "conductor" that you put in the hole so you can find it later? Is this just a wire basically?

I stepped it off this morning and if I split and take one to the future gazebo it would be about 450'. I'll check the prices on ride vs walk beside and make a decision based on that, assuming the walk besides are not unreasonably slow.

My problem is that I get stuff mostly at the box stores, and it seems I need to go to a plumbing or irrigation supply outfit to get the pipe and also the large frost-free hydrants, and the fittings.

I might also check into an irrigation company doing the job. My impression from reading other people's experience is that running water lines is very expensive when done by folks in that business. Maybe they will surprise me.

Is my regular tractor with FEL OK for backfilling the trenches, or is the trencher itself a better tool? This would help in my planning, whether or not to take it back after digging the trenches and before laying the pipe.

My well pump is rated 20 GPM, but my well driller says it will probably go 25 at the 399' depth it is set. I have run it full out for hours at a time, but this was straight out of the wellhead, never through the pressure tank. This might be a complication because if I run it too slow the pump will cycle, but if I run out too much, the pressure might drop to the point of pumping the pressure tank dry. I have tried this for maybe an hour, adjusting the valve to keep the pressure steady, but invariably it either creeps up and cuts off the pump (then comes back on within 30 seconds because of the volume of water being run out), or it bleeds down and eventually runs all the water out of the tank. This needs to be thought through some how.

I like the idea of some sort of float valve on the pond, but I need to be sure I can regulate it so the pump will run the hole time.

Eddie, I couldn't quite grasp your explanation of the hydrant with the sleeve. Do you have a picture?

 

[RobertN]

Your pressure tank issue is the reason a Master Valve/ Pump Relay setup is used. The Pump relay bypasses(parallels?) your pressure switch, and turns the pump on or off.

Here is a page with lots of good info Strykers irrigation page

 

[OkeeDon]

I backfilled with the FEL on my tractor; the walk-beside trencher didn't have any sort of backfill blade and even if it did, it would be way too slow. The walk-besides are NOT very maneuverale. If you're lucky, you'll get a fancy one with hydraulic steering; even so, they steer about like a pencil through a pound cake.

I got my bell-end pipe from a specialty company, Okeechobee Pipe and Fittings, which does exactly what their name says. I think the bell-end pipe was slightly less money than the straight pipe with a coupler, and it was twice as fast to have only one joint at each coupling. LIke Eddie, I used purple primer and clear glue.

I don't have any problem regulating the flow; but maybe the size of my pressure tank has something to do with that. See attached.

 

[EddieWalker]

Alan,

The walk behind trencher is just for digging. It has no means of filling the trench. Your FEL will do that easily, or a box blade. After you fill the hole, drive down it with one side of your tires to compact it.

The pipe from the box stores usually comes in 10 foot lengths. Plumbing suppliers and farm stores will have it in 20 ft joints with the bell. I buy mine from the farm store in Big Sandy. Cheaper than any other place I've found.

The bell is easily twice as long as the union. This gives you more strength, and saves you money buying unions.

A jump from 1.25 inch pipe to 2 inch is HUGE! You gotta realize that a general rule of thumb in guaging pipe is that for every half inch in diameter that you increase, your capacity increases 2 1/2 times.

Distance, friction and elevation also factor into this, but thats where the engineers come in to play. I've looked the formula up on the internet once, and was totally lost. For me, and for your application, this is good enough.

If your pump is cylcling and having issues with 1.25 inches, 2 will be way too much. The added volume in 2 inches would be important if you wanted to have a certain level of preasure at the outlet, but for jus moving water from your well to your pond, your wasteing your money.

If you wanted to run sprinklers, then the 2 inch line would help because it will allow you to build preasure at the outlet when you reduce it to half an inch, which is the size sprinkler heads are. Greater volume allows for more preasure over long runs. Going down hill works even better!!!

The picture is from an RV Park I visited in the Kerrville area. They have a 3/4 inch pvc pipe coming straight up into a PVC T, then two spickets.

The PVC pipe coming up is wraped in insulation. The 4 inch pipe you see is a sleeve that covers the insulation.

No hydrant or anything expensive. Total cost is gonna be around $10. Cheap, effective and simple.

Eddie

 

[Alan L.]

Thanks for the picture of the "frost free" rig , Eddie. Now I get it, looks like a great idea.

My problem is I can't find bell-end pipe on Saturday. The ones that carry it don't open on Saturday.

I call the rental store. A walk behind that does a maximum 24" depth at 4" wide is $150 a day. He says with our soil conditions I'll be lucky to get 50 feet an hour out of it. A Beretta I think, with 13 horse motor.

The riding version is $240 for 4 hours, or $370 per day. He says it will dig much faster.

The local lumber yard has 2" pipe wth bell for $.65 a foot, but they only have 10 sticks. Can't find anyone else that has it.

I have things I have to do for the next 2 weekends, so looks like this will have to wait for when I can get off and get the pipe during the week.

 

[_RaT_]

A properly etched (primed) and glued PVC joint becomes fused, not just glued. Simply doing a quick wipe with the PVC primer may not actually etch the pipe enough. The more oxide on the pipe, the more "scrubbing" it takes with the primer. PVC pipe that has been stored in the sun will need more etching to get a solid fused joint.

 

[GaryQWA]

Here any pump or plumbing supply house carries PE up to 1.25" and could order 2".

As to the ID to use, I suggest that open discharge from a well pump doesn't require any larger ID than 1" for what was it, 350'? We use 1" on wells to 500' deep and up to 200' from the house, without velocity or other problems because those 'problems' depend on the pump that is used and at what pressure it is operated at. A 1" open discharge line will provide a very high flow IF the pump can deliver it. And then, the well dictates how many gpm can be pumped out of it. So the additional expense of 1.25" or 2" isn't needed unless.... you want to fill the pond faster but again, the well will dictate how fast that can happen and IMO the average well will never pump 30 gpm for as long as it should take to put a couple inches of water in a pond larger than a puddle. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Gary Slusser