spray insulation

[ovrszd]

I paid $5k for the spray foam in my garage, Closed cell 4 inches in ceiling and 1 inch on walls. I have 6 inch walls, so added fiberglass bats over the foam to fill wall cavity.
The garage is 28X40

Dave

Great pics. Do you recall what R-value you got from the spray insulation??

 

[gsganzer]

I think you get 6- 6.5 R per inch for closed cell and about half that for open cell. The big benefit from the foam is not just the R value, but the air intrusion seal. So if you had the equivalent R value in foam and fiberglass, you'd still get improved performance from the foam. There's also a structural element too. The foam increases load bearing and wind load strengths.

 

[Wood_Butcher_Dav]

gsganzer is correct 6-7 per inch. I was talked out of going thicker in the ceiling wanting to get around r-40. The foam guys said any over 4" would not be cost effective for central Illinois. Also have 2" foam board under the 5" concrete floor. The only weak link is the cement block stem wall, still work in process, any ideas how or what to apply? My current idea is to glue foam board to both inside and out and cover with another material. Used over 40 gallons of white paint and primer right after the foam was applied.

Dave

 

[ovrszd]

In regards to the concrete insulation. Friend of mine is having a 70x100 building erected. 42" poured footings with 2" foam board on inside. 6" floor poured on top with 2" foam board under it. Heated floor. He will still end up with the 6" face of his floor uninsulated. In the overall scheme of things, probably won't be noticed. And I see no way to overcome it.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

I'm following with interest because I'm also considering something similar. Reading people's descriptions it seems like closed cell foam is stuck right around a dollar a board foot. For smaller jobs you can buy do-it-yourself kits, the one I'm looking at is the Dow Froth Pak. Their biggest kit is 600 board feet and seems to be around $700.

This website sells the big tanks -- up to 350 gallons -- and this chart shows how the cost of the raw materials goes as you buy bigger containers:
Dow Froth-Pak™ Refillable System – Board Foot Cost - Energy Conscious Learning Center

Even with the biggest tank the raw material is relatively expensive. And that 350 gallon tank ways 8,000 lbs!

 

[gsganzer]

I'm following with interest because I'm also considering something similar. Reading people's descriptions it seems like closed cell foam is stuck right around a dollar a board foot. For smaller jobs you can buy do-it-yourself kits, the one I'm looking at is the Dow Froth Pak. Their biggest kit is 600 board feet and seems to be around $700.

This website sells the big tanks -- up to 350 gallons -- and this chart shows how the cost of the raw materials goes as you buy bigger containers:
Dow Froth-Pak Refillable System Board Foot Cost - Energy Conscious Learning Center

Even with the biggest tank the raw material is relatively expensive. And that 350 gallon tank ways 8,000 lbs!

We used to use the "Foam it Green" kits at my last employer to seal some areas on insulated steel panel (ISP) buildings we fabricated. They work, but man are they a PITA and messy. There's definitely a learning curve. If you have any work stoppage of 20- 30 seconds, your nozzle plugs. Plan to buy a lot of extra nozzles with the kits. In fact, you want a whole extra gun and tubing assembly. You also have to watch that your nozzle doesn't get partially plugged and then blow off, spraying components everywhere. In other instances, you might not get both materials (Component A and component B) to flow equally. Again, unreacted components is a huge mess. None of it is easy to clean up.

 

[Dadnatron]

It appears after a little cursory investigation, that the components require a minimum temperature and simple mixing to catalyze and polymerize.

If the chemicals are simply in a 'drum' they require pumping to the gun. The gun then has 3 things running through it.

1. Compressed air in order to distribute the chemicals from the gun to wall.
2. Chemical A and Chemical B

The gun is designed to provide the mixing of the agents. Obviously the 'Pro' guns do it in a different manner than the do it yourself versions which simply mix it in the nozzle. Thus, any stoppage results in the interaction of the chemicals in the mixing portion of the nozzle and thus clogging it. In the do-it-yourself kits, they chemicals are provided under pressure, thereby relieving the requirement for both compressed air for application as well as pumping of the chemical to the gun.

Is this about the gist of the situation?

 

[IXLR8]

I'm following with interest because I'm also considering something similar. Reading people's descriptions it seems like closed cell foam is stuck right around a dollar a board foot. For smaller jobs you can buy do-it-yourself kits, the one I'm looking at is the Dow Froth Pak. Their biggest kit is 600 board feet and seems to be around $700.

This website sells the big tanks -- up to 350 gallons -- and this chart shows how the cost of the raw materials goes as you buy bigger containers:
Dow Froth-Pak Refillable System Board Foot Cost - Energy Conscious Learning Center

Even with the biggest tank the raw material is relatively expensive. And that 350 gallon tank ways 8,000 lbs!

I used the Dow Froth-Pak 600 when I re-insulated a wall in my house in 2010. I had some issues with the foam shrinking and delaminating from the studs. I contacted a Dow engineer and he said I had moisture issues in the wood. Dow sent a rep out to look at project. The house was built in 1983 and the wood was totally dry, moisture levels were well within spec and was not the issue. The engineer then send me a usage/installation manual for the Froth-Pak. One thing that was NOT in the directions than come with the Froth-Pak kit is the fact that if you spray on a layer of foam, you are NOT to spray over it for a minimum of 20 minutes!!! This little tidbit should be in the instructions but it is not. The Froth-Pak tanks must be kept between 70dF and 85dF for proper mixing and cure. I built a box to keep the tanks in and made a spot to install an electric heater to keep the tanks at the proper temp.

 

[thepumpguysc]

I DID FORGET to put my R value in w/ the foam board..
6.75 w/ 1" foil faced foam board. & I used 2".. so it musta gone up some.. doubtful it "doubled".. prob. in the hi 9's.??
I'm in Sunny South Carolina so cold wasn't a factor.. I just wanted something to keep the moisture & humidity down.. so it wasn't "raining" in the metal building..
The poster is in Georgia, so basically the same weather as myself..
Even w/ the snow storm we had last month it was tolerable to work in there.. I had the foam up & was sheeting the walls w/ plywood.
It wasn't "warm" but I had a propane turkey fryer goin for heat.. that was enough..

IF YOU THINK insulation is costly?? just wait until you get to wood & electric.!!! WOW..
I've spent about 3k on 1/2" BC plywood & JUST got a quote from the Electric Co. to run 200amp service 1750 ft.. $4500.00.!!!!
2 new poles, a transformer & face [cut the limbs] on about 100 trees.. 4502.00 to be exact..
& THAT is JUST TO the building.. that doesn't count the conduit, inside wiring, outlets or WIRE & breaker box..!!!

 

[check]

I used the Dow Froth-Pak 600 when I re-insulated a wall in my house in 2010. I had some issues with the foam shrinking and delaminating from the studs. I contacted a Dow engineer and he said I had moisture issues in the wood. Dow sent a rep out to look at project. The house was built in 1983 and the wood was totally dry, moisture levels were well within spec and was not the issue. The engineer then send me a usage/installation manual for the Froth-Pak. One thing that was NOT in the directions than come with the Froth-Pak kit is the fact that if you spray on a layer of foam, you are NOT to spray over it for a minimum of 20 minutes!!! This little tidbit should be in the instructions but it is not. The Froth-Pak tanks must be kept between 70dF and 85dF for proper mixing and cure. I built a box to keep the tanks in and made a spot to install an electric heater to keep the tanks at the proper temp.

Sounds way too complicated. I just paid someone to do the walls of my cottage. The guys were real pros, and I would not want to try what they did. More than worth the money.

 

[Tomtint]

I used the Dow Froth-Pak 600 when I re-insulated a wall in my house in 2010. I had some issues with the foam shrinking and delaminating from the studs. I contacted a Dow engineer and he said I had moisture issues in the wood. Dow sent a rep out to look at project. The house was built in 1983 and the wood was totally dry, moisture levels were well within spec and was not the issue. The engineer then send me a usage/installation manual for the Froth-Pak. One thing that was NOT in the directions than come with the Froth-Pak kit is the fact that if you spray on a layer of foam, you are NOT to spray over it for a minimum of 20 minutes!!! This little tidbit should be in the instructions but it is not. The Froth-Pak tanks must be kept between 70dF and 85dF for proper mixing and cure. I built a box to keep the tanks in and made a spot to install an electric heater to keep the tanks at the proper temp.

I have seen numerous situations where closed cell has shrunk or somehow separated from the substrate. . This was one of the primary reasons we opted for open cell. If and when a home settles, wood moves.. this can and will cause closed cell to crack and allow air infiltration..and thus moist yet..and potentially mold. Open cell has its own challenges. But it does flex and move with a structure. However, should there ever be a leak somewhere..it acts like a sponge and that's another issue all together.

 

[IXLR8]

Sounds way too complicated. I just paid someone to do the walls of my cottage. The guys were real pros, and I would not want to try what they did. More than worth the money.

If I was doing more than one wall, I would have hired a contractor to spray it. But the spray companies around here want about $550 for a set up fee, plus $1.25 per square ft, 1 inch thick, for the closed cell foam. The setup fee is the same no matter if they spray 10 sq ft or 2000 sq ft. It cost me $600 for the tanks to do the area I needed done. It would have cost me over $1400 for a contractor to do the same thing. One contractor expected me to provide a 50amp 220vac service connection to power his rig to heat and pump the chemicals. Most contractors have a generator on their trailer to power the heater and pumps. Once I gave the first layer time to cure before putting on the second layer, and didn't put the first layer on too thick, I didn't have any more issues.
But you are correct, the pros with all the proper equipment can do a very good job very quickly and there is no question that if you are doing a full house/garage, it is the only way to go.

 

[ovrszd]

I DID FORGET to put my R value in w/ the foam board..
6.75 w/ 1" foil faced foam board. & I used 2".. so it musta gone up some.. doubtful it "doubled".. prob. in the hi 9's.??
I'm in Sunny South Carolina so cold wasn't a factor.. I just wanted something to keep the moisture & humidity down.. so it wasn't "raining" in the metal building..
The poster is in Georgia, so basically the same weather as myself..
Even w/ the snow storm we had last month it was tolerable to work in there.. I had the foam up & was sheeting the walls w/ plywood.
It wasn't "warm" but I had a propane turkey fryer goin for heat.. that was enough..

IF YOU THINK insulation is costly?? just wait until you get to wood & electric.!!! WOW..
I've spent about 3k on 1/2" BC plywood & JUST got a quote from the Electric Co. to run 200amp service 1750 ft.. $4500.00.!!!!
2 new poles, a transformer & face [cut the limbs] on about 100 trees.. 4502.00 to be exact..
& THAT is JUST TO the building.. that doesn't count the conduit, inside wiring, outlets or WIRE & breaker box..!!!

I've had several friends/neighbors come to my shop and talk to me about getting themselves a building. They'll ask me what my building cost? I am always upfront and honest, $42,500 and I did the work except pouring the concrete. They'll always tell me about a quote they've received for $20K something or other for a similar sized building. I then try patiently to educate them that what they have been priced is a pop can building that's unusable for anything but storage. If they want to comfortably work in it they need to plan to double that cost. They politely listen to my warnings and then leave. I'm sure they go home and talk about how I got ripped off. I'm a nice guy and never rub it in to them a few years later that I might have been right.....

 

[Redlands Okie]

gsganzer is correct 6-7 per inch. I was talked out of going thicker in the ceiling wanting to get around r-40. The foam guys said any over 4" would not be cost effective for central Illinois. Also have 2" foam board under the 5" concrete floor. The only weak link is the cement block stem wall, still work in process, any ideas how or what to apply? My current idea is to glue foam board to both inside and out and cover with another material. Used over 40 gallons of white paint and primer right after the foam was applied.

Dave

Check out applying EFIS type system over the blocks. Think Stucco with foam underlayment for insulation. Normally used on outside of commercial building. Finish coat available in different textures. Hand tools 1/2 inch drill with paddle for most jobs. I have used it on the interior walls of several jobs after seeing it done on some commercial interior office walls. You all have probably seen it on the outside of homedepot and Lowes for example.

Dryvit is a common brand, usually have to be a certified installer to purchase their materials. Senergy is another which is the brand I am certified to use. Call around there are several brands and or sellers that do not really care who buys the materials.

Basic process is to lightly dampen the subsiding (blocks in your case) and apply a cement tile thin-set looking material with a notched trowel, then apply the foam over and into the wet cement. Then apply thin set looking material on top of foam, apply and squeeze a fiberglass rolled net into it. Then you apply a finish coat of premixed per colored cement on top.
I have seen the finish coat applied directly to sheetrock on interior jobs. Apply fiberglass tape to seams and then the finish coat, do not use any sheetrock mud.
Used in hurricane areas so handles water and wind just fine. Foam and cement not prone to bugs or water damage.

No painting ever.

Good price if you look at total job cost, siding, paint, trim, etc.

 

[jk96]

I paid $5k for the spray foam in my garage, Closed cell 4 inches in ceiling and 1 inch on walls. I have 6 inch walls, so added fiberglass bats over the foam to fill wall cavity.
View attachment 540828View attachment 540829View attachment 540830View attachment 540831
The garage is 28X40

Dave

I'm surprised the installer is not using a mask with a fresh air supply.

 

[Wood_Butcher_Dav]

Thanks Redlands for the tip on the blocks.
JK96 he should have, and it was in August when this was done and a little warm.

 

[alysonsdad]

I wanted to say a very sincere thank you for all the info. Some smart and knowledgeable here.