Chains Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?)

   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #61  
Re: So where do you run them?

Hmmm, this is making me think just a little too hard today. Yes, the load will be spread over the two ropes but at the turn-around point the two ropes become one and the full tensile load will be realized (ignoring frictional losses). I'm thinking of the good old pulley excersizes where one pulley does not reduce the load required to lift an object, only reverses the direction. Two pulleys and above begin to reduce the load. Thoughts /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #62  
Re: So where do you run them?

<font color=blue>Hmmm, this is making me think just a little too hard today</font color=blue>

Me too, took me 20 minutes to decide that it did double the load capacity.

Here's my FBD:

L = Load
T = Tension in chain / strap
O = "pulley"
G = fixed point on trailer ground.

L
|
O
| |
| T
| |
G G

Conservation of force (excluding friction) L = 2*T

<font color=blue>I'm thinking of the good old pulley excersizes where one pulley does not reduce the load required to lift an object, only reverses the direction. Two pulleys and above begin to reduce the load. Thoughts </font color=blue>

You are correct except for one detail, in the pulley exercises, you are assuming one end of the rope is free. You pull the rope to move the load. In the trailer tie down, they are both fixed & you tension via chain binder or strap ratchet.
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #63  
Re: So where do you run them?

If the single pulley is fixed, only the direction is changed. If the one end of the rope is fixed, and the load attached to the pulley the force is reduced, or multiplied by two. Just depends on how you look at it.
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #64  
Re: So where do you run them?

I think I'm coming around to your thinking Haz. Thanks for the sketch, very reminiscent of Statics classes so many years ago /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #65  
Re: So where do you run them?

<font color=blue>"If you remember back to physics class"</font color=blue>

Yet another example of why I wish I'd taken physics in HS or college. /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif No one told me then it would be something that actually had practical value in the real world. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #66  
Re: So where do you run them?

I would have to think in my own opinion that looping the chain would not make it twice as strong. a chain is rated on the strenth of the links shear force. and the spot where you looped it would still be one link. I think if the chain failed it would be where it was looped. with two chains the force is ditributed evenly to both chains, but with a looped chain the force is put into the looped area. correct me if i'm wrong.
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #67  
Re: So where do you run them?

That makes more sense to me too.
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #68  
Re: So where do you run them?

In textbooks, the pulley example assumes a frictionless pulley and does indeed divide the load over two ropes. Regardless of whether the pulley is in motion or not, the tension in the looped rope remains constant. Just because a part of the rope is directly over the pulley doesn't mean that that part of the rope now magically experiences twice the tension. The confusion for me occurrs with a chain. My hypothesis is that the frictionless pulley is now replaced by a very high friction grab hook from a binder or a clevice or something and in all probability acts as a stress concentrator effectively creating a "weak link" in the chain relatively speaking. Just how much weaker depends on the specific conditions.

Greg
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #69  
Re: So where do you run them?

Wow, where to begin.

First, ideal physics: Statics & Mechanics and all of that stuff. No friction, no material propeties, just idealized concepts that many engineers forget about until it bites them in the posterior. Let's look at an example that might help explain your pulley/strap problem. First find a 10 ft piece of rope and a friend. ( WARNING: No nooses please /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif) Now you and your friend start playing tug-of-war. Assume neither of you are winning. The two of you are now exerting a certain amount of force on the rope that is equally to the sum of the forces that each of you are applying. Now assume a sumo wrestler also wants to get into the act, but being from Japan he doesn't know how to play tug-of-war. He grabs the rope in the middle and starts to pull from the middle. He eventual pulls the both of you until you and your friend are side-by-side. At this point, your combined force directly oppose him and causes a stalemate. The force he exerts is equal to the sum of each of the forces that each of you are applying. Assuming his hands are frictionless, I'm sorry but it is required, then there is no change in force on the rope.

Example #2. O.K. The sumo wrestler's hands aren't really frictionless, so what does this mean. If his grip is strong enough, he basically turns the rope into seperate pieces by acting as a clamp. Now each section of rope is independent and only has the force applied by you OR your friend. The sumo wrestler still feels the force exerted by the both of you.

Real Physics: Material Properties & Safety Factors. Pen & Paper exercises get replaced by experimental testing and computer simulations. I'm on travel and I will be guessing at the following numbers. I think high tensile steel has yield strength of 70,000 lbs per square inch, and 1/2" grade 70 chain has a strength of approximately 7000 lbs. A 1/2" chain is about 1/3" square inches. So, divide 70,000 by 3 to get about 23000lbs. So why isn't the chain rated for 23,000lbs? A chain isn't a straight piece of material. It is bent and welded together to form a closed loop. A chain will normally break at the point of maximum curvature normally at the 1/4 and 3/4 positions. The bending of the steel creates residual stress and strain. The weld is also a high stress area. So I would assume that experimental testing probably resulted in chains break somewhere between 10,000 and 14,000lbs. Now to keep people alive, and the lawyers at bay, a safety margins between 1.25 and 2.0 depending on the industry, customer, and/or application are applied to lower the chain's rated strength to 7,000lbs. Any manufacturer's specification whether it's a chain or even a complex item like a FEL, basically says that barring any manufacturer's defect, for example: bad steel or weld, the item will perform with failing. That's why guys sometimes notice that their equipment is stronger than advertised. They are just taking it to the edge, where failure is much more likely.

Now my head hurts. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?)
  • Thread Starter
#70  
Re: So where do you run them?

Don't feel bad BigDave,

My head hurts now, too! I had no idea when I asked the initial question that it'd get this deep. And here I am in tennis shoes and the boots at home /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif.
 

Tractor & Equipment Auctions

2022 Wacker Neuson SM100 Mini Skid Steer (A51039)
2022 Wacker Neuson...
2025 K0720 UNUSED Metal Farm Driveway Gate Set (A50860)
2025 K0720 UNUSED...
CATALOG IS A GUIDE ONLY!! (A50775)
CATALOG IS A GUIDE...
2021 CATERPILLAR 259D3 SKID STEER (A51242)
2021 CATERPILLAR...
2022 K-Z Sportsmen 260BHSE 28ft T/A Travel Trailer (A48082)
2022 K-Z Sportsmen...
Payment Terms (MUST READ) (A50774)
Payment Terms...
 
Top