Chains Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?)

   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #61  
Re: So where do you run them?

Hmmm, this is making me think just a little too hard today. Yes, the load will be spread over the two ropes but at the turn-around point the two ropes become one and the full tensile load will be realized (ignoring frictional losses). I'm thinking of the good old pulley excersizes where one pulley does not reduce the load required to lift an object, only reverses the direction. Two pulleys and above begin to reduce the load. Thoughts /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #62  
Re: So where do you run them?

<font color=blue>Hmmm, this is making me think just a little too hard today</font color=blue>

Me too, took me 20 minutes to decide that it did double the load capacity.

Here's my FBD:

L = Load
T = Tension in chain / strap
O = "pulley"
G = fixed point on trailer ground.

L
|
O
| |
| T
| |
G G

Conservation of force (excluding friction) L = 2*T

<font color=blue>I'm thinking of the good old pulley excersizes where one pulley does not reduce the load required to lift an object, only reverses the direction. Two pulleys and above begin to reduce the load. Thoughts </font color=blue>

You are correct except for one detail, in the pulley exercises, you are assuming one end of the rope is free. You pull the rope to move the load. In the trailer tie down, they are both fixed & you tension via chain binder or strap ratchet.
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #63  
Re: So where do you run them?

If the single pulley is fixed, only the direction is changed. If the one end of the rope is fixed, and the load attached to the pulley the force is reduced, or multiplied by two. Just depends on how you look at it.
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #64  
Re: So where do you run them?

I think I'm coming around to your thinking Haz. Thanks for the sketch, very reminiscent of Statics classes so many years ago /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #65  
Re: So where do you run them?

<font color=blue>"If you remember back to physics class"</font color=blue>

Yet another example of why I wish I'd taken physics in HS or college. /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif No one told me then it would be something that actually had practical value in the real world. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #66  
Re: So where do you run them?

I would have to think in my own opinion that looping the chain would not make it twice as strong. a chain is rated on the strenth of the links shear force. and the spot where you looped it would still be one link. I think if the chain failed it would be where it was looped. with two chains the force is ditributed evenly to both chains, but with a looped chain the force is put into the looped area. correct me if i'm wrong.
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #67  
Re: So where do you run them?

That makes more sense to me too.
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #68  
Re: So where do you run them?

In textbooks, the pulley example assumes a frictionless pulley and does indeed divide the load over two ropes. Regardless of whether the pulley is in motion or not, the tension in the looped rope remains constant. Just because a part of the rope is directly over the pulley doesn't mean that that part of the rope now magically experiences twice the tension. The confusion for me occurrs with a chain. My hypothesis is that the frictionless pulley is now replaced by a very high friction grab hook from a binder or a clevice or something and in all probability acts as a stress concentrator effectively creating a "weak link" in the chain relatively speaking. Just how much weaker depends on the specific conditions.

Greg
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #69  
Re: So where do you run them?

Wow, where to begin.

First, ideal physics: Statics & Mechanics and all of that stuff. No friction, no material propeties, just idealized concepts that many engineers forget about until it bites them in the posterior. Let's look at an example that might help explain your pulley/strap problem. First find a 10 ft piece of rope and a friend. ( WARNING: No nooses please /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif) Now you and your friend start playing tug-of-war. Assume neither of you are winning. The two of you are now exerting a certain amount of force on the rope that is equally to the sum of the forces that each of you are applying. Now assume a sumo wrestler also wants to get into the act, but being from Japan he doesn't know how to play tug-of-war. He grabs the rope in the middle and starts to pull from the middle. He eventual pulls the both of you until you and your friend are side-by-side. At this point, your combined force directly oppose him and causes a stalemate. The force he exerts is equal to the sum of each of the forces that each of you are applying. Assuming his hands are frictionless, I'm sorry but it is required, then there is no change in force on the rope.

Example #2. O.K. The sumo wrestler's hands aren't really frictionless, so what does this mean. If his grip is strong enough, he basically turns the rope into seperate pieces by acting as a clamp. Now each section of rope is independent and only has the force applied by you OR your friend. The sumo wrestler still feels the force exerted by the both of you.

Real Physics: Material Properties & Safety Factors. Pen & Paper exercises get replaced by experimental testing and computer simulations. I'm on travel and I will be guessing at the following numbers. I think high tensile steel has yield strength of 70,000 lbs per square inch, and 1/2" grade 70 chain has a strength of approximately 7000 lbs. A 1/2" chain is about 1/3" square inches. So, divide 70,000 by 3 to get about 23000lbs. So why isn't the chain rated for 23,000lbs? A chain isn't a straight piece of material. It is bent and welded together to form a closed loop. A chain will normally break at the point of maximum curvature normally at the 1/4 and 3/4 positions. The bending of the steel creates residual stress and strain. The weld is also a high stress area. So I would assume that experimental testing probably resulted in chains break somewhere between 10,000 and 14,000lbs. Now to keep people alive, and the lawyers at bay, a safety margins between 1.25 and 2.0 depending on the industry, customer, and/or application are applied to lower the chain's rated strength to 7,000lbs. Any manufacturer's specification whether it's a chain or even a complex item like a FEL, basically says that barring any manufacturer's defect, for example: bad steel or weld, the item will perform with failing. That's why guys sometimes notice that their equipment is stronger than advertised. They are just taking it to the edge, where failure is much more likely.

Now my head hurts. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?)
  • Thread Starter
#70  
Re: So where do you run them?

Don't feel bad BigDave,

My head hurts now, too! I had no idea when I asked the initial question that it'd get this deep. And here I am in tennis shoes and the boots at home /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif.
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #71  
Re: So where do you run them?

<font color=blue>The confusion for me occurrs with a chain. My hypothesis is that the frictionless pulley is now replaced by a very high friction grab hook from a binder or a clevice or something and in all probability acts as a stress concentrator effectively creating a "weak link" in the chain relatively speaking. Just how much weaker depends on the specific conditions</font color=blue>

Hey Gary, you can add another reason why you prefer straps to chains!

Bottom line, the strength of the chain or strap does not increase. The load capacity of the system does. It is somewhere between 1 and 2 times the single chain or strap. Too many variables to predict what the actual number is.

Should you use 1/2 strength chain or strap because you double it up? NO.

Should you feel that you are getting extra insurance by doubling it up? YES.
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #72  
Re: So where do you run them?

<font color=blue>"Hey Gary, you can add another reason why you prefer straps to chains!"</font color=blue>

Yeah, if only I could explain it confidently. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif I'll stick with cleaner, lighter, quieter on my deck and easier to tighten snugly. Most all of my friends are smarter than me and would know I was bluffing with the explanation I'd have to give for that "weak link" theory. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #73  
They did find a ripped seat belt in Dale Earnhardt's car. The phenonema is called "Dumping" and refers to when a belt slides to one side of the "eye" in the buckle or in Dale's case the adjuster. The same load is now concentrated on just part of the belt and just part of the eye. Taken far enough, the buckle will "knife" through the belt with less force than it's rating, much the same way you use a letter opener on your mail (A sharp edge left on the inside of the "eye" from the punching process wouldn't help any either).

The important thing here is that your strap isn't pulling at a sideways angle to your hook and that you haven't run the strap over a sharp edge. Last time I checked, those cold, heavy, noisy, metal chewing, storage eatin' set of chains and ratchet binders I that I use didn't have any varmit teethmarks, cuts or sunburn on them, only rust and green paint.

Greg
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #74  
Re: So where do you run them?

I think I had one of the first replies, and I liked that answer much better.

<font color=purple> Definitely Chains! </font color=purple>
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #75  
<font color=blue>"Last time I checked, those cold, heavy, noisy, metal chewing, storage eatin' set of chains and ratchet binders I that I use didn't have any varmit teethmarks, cuts or sunburn on them, only rust and green paint"</font color=blue>

And last time I checked my nice, light, quiet, finish protecting, storage friendly set of ratchet and axle straps didn't have any varmint teethmarks, cuts or sunburn on them, either, just a little dirt on the axle straps' sleeves. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif/w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

I will bring up one point that's not been made here as yet. I think chains are far more forgiving than straps regarding where and how you attach and run them. You have to know what you're doing with straps and you have to use them properly.

The Earnhardt example is a good one to illustrate this. The belt system was not installed according to the manufacturer's specifications and a problem resulted. I know this is stretching more than a little, but if chains had been used instead of belts they would have likely been forgiving enough to have held despite the improper installation.
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #76  
"You can break your thumb off in your a** if you try hard enough". Advice given to me by a farmer. True with chains-straps-anything.

I know I haul my Harley with the small tie-downs and "soft-ties" to wrap aroung the typically chrome anchoring points on the bike. I feel totally comfortable about this and these aren't even the ratcheting type straps.

The piece of the puzzle that up to now I have been missing is these axle loop straps. Now that I am aware of them and where to get them, this addresses any anchoring concerns and I can instantly see scaling up the bike system to tractor size loads (I have catalogs coming!). As you might guess I already have this conditioning within me to observe/inspect a straps condition as I apply them so no problem there.

Right now the infrequently used bulky chains and binders make me keep the big toolbox across the bed of the truck which interferes with anchoring the bike. That's funny...

Hey, a question. Once I had a car on the trailer and with the limited anchoring points available, I didn't have enough room to easily attach the 3/8" steel binders (my chains are 5/16"). Without going out to measure, it was probably about 18" that I was working within. Would a comparably sized ratchet strap cinch up any closer?

Thanks,

Greg
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #77  
<font color=blue>"Would a comparably sized ratchet strap cinch up any closer?"</font color=blue>

In the <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.awdiredt.com>AWDirect</A> catalog I think you'll find ratchets which can be attached directly to your attachment points. With those and a simple strap you should be able to make it work. The better solution is more attachment points. I just added six more to the five already welded to my hauler's steel diamond plate floor and couldn't be happier. There is no such thing as too many attachment points. Good luck. I hope this helps. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #78  
Re: So where do you run them?

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( OK, Von... You're just showing off with those clean, shiny chains and binders now. [image]/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif[/image]<br><br>I'm under the impression the 10,000 lb. rated straps have at least a 4,700 lb. WLL, but I could be mistaken. I know that 5,000 lb. rated straps have a WLL of 3,300 lbs. If the percentage holds true, then the 10,000 lb. rated straps would have a 6,600 lb.

*WLL. )</font>

* What does it mean?

*
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #79  
Re: So where do you run them?

I think I'll just drive my tractor to where I want it.

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

hey,,, it is more seat time right


Then something even better, buy a tractor for every location at which I might possible need one ?


/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
   / Straps or Chains (or is this too personal?) #80  
Re: So where do you run them?

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( 1*I think I'll just drive my tractor to where I want it.
2*Then something even better, buy a tractor for every location at which I might possible need one ?)</font>
=====
********
1*There are legal safety and insurance issues here.
2*And you will need a truck or trailer to haul it to the shop for service or repairs.
 

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