This Old Barn

[quicksandfarmer]

I decided what I needed to do was to put a rim joist on the inside of that sill to give me something to attach joists to. The opening in the foundation is about 14', so if I used a 16' piece I could support it on the foundation for a foot at each end. Two of the existing joists were 16' 1/8" apart so a 16' piece would just fit between them*. I figured I would double it to give it some stiffness.

I also decided to commit heresy. To this point I've been trying to replace the joinery of the original framing. The beam at the other end of the joists was still solid and I could notch the replacements to match, but on this new rim joist I decided to use joist hangers.

Here's a shot of the new rim joists. You can see how punky the old sill is. I attached the inner one with lag bolts, and the center of that old beam is still so hard that I couldn't drive the lags into it with a drill, I had to use a wrench for the last few turns. They went into the new wood no problem.

You can also see something interesting on the wall behind. Remember I said the beam had sagged about an inch? Look at that stud. It's mortised into the sill -- and the mortise has pulled out about an inch. When the beam sagged, the rest of the wall stayed put and the stud came loose.

*(It took me forever to get the 16' piece in there. Turned out Lowes had sent me one that was 16' 1". Once I figured that out and cut off the extra inch it slid in like butter.)

 

[quicksandfarmer]

When I put the rim joists in, they went behind two of the old joists that I was keeping so I needed to shorten them by the thickness of the rim joists, 3". I had to think about how to do this, the only way to access the ends was on a stepladder from below.

I have this flush cut blade for my Sawzall:

I ripped two pieces of subfloor to 2-7/8" -- the thickness of the rim joists, less the thickness of the blade. I screwed them to the joist against the sill. Then I used the blade as a spacer, and put another piece of wood on the outside. I did this on both sides of the joist. In this picture at the bottom you can see the piece of 2x4 I tacked up to hold the joist once it was cut.

I had a slot the thickness of the blade exactly the distance from the end that I wanted. I ran the blade down the slot. Note that I have the blade upside down in the saw so that I can cut all the way through.

The finished cut -- perfectly straight. You can see the other joist in the background, I've put one of the guide pieces of wood on. On the right is the mortise pocket that this joist originally sat in.

The old joists are 3" thick so I can use a joist hanger for a doubled 2x to support them. Here's the finished product. On the left is an original joist, untouched, mortised into the sill. The two middle ones are the original joists that I shortened, attached to the rim joists with joist hangers. Behind the rim joist you can see their mortise pockets in the sill. To the right is an all-new joist, also held by a joist hanger.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

OK, got all of the joists in! Time to start putting down the floor!

I actually ran into a bit of a snag. There was an electrical wire that ran down to the basement, it had just been run farmer-style through a crack in the old floor. So before putting the new floor in I needed to disconnect it and drill a hole. When I went to disconnect it I learned that it had no ground -- 12-2 Romex with no ground! I had no idea such a thing existed. It was just a short piece, but it was the piece between the panel and the first outlet so the whole circuit was ungrounded. In good faith I couldn't reconnect it. I thought I had some 12-2 in my wire bin, but none of the pieces were long enough. So it's a trip to the hardware store before I can resume work.

 

[Wagtail]

A Flush-cut sawzall blade... I was unaware there was such a thing.

Interesting AND I've learnt something!

 

[quicksandfarmer]

A Flush-cut sawzall blade... I was unaware there was such a thing.

Interesting AND I've learnt something!

Like everything else, I got it on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0052A1PWA

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Putting those joists in was a bit of a chore. I'm working by myself, and it's about 9 feet from the floor to the bottom of the joists. So what I have to do is hook one end and then walk the other end up the stepladder and hook it. The basement floor is uneven and the stepladder rocks and it takes all of my concentration to keep from falling off the stepladder. This meant that I needed to put the joist hangers in first. So I had to come up with a way to place them. I know they come with those tabs to nail them in place, but I've never found them to be as precise as I like.

First I draw a pencil line where I want the joist to be. I cut a piece of scrap to 3-1/8" wide, and chamfer the bottom corners so they don't hang up on the hanger. I use a clamp to hold it against the line, flush at the top and bottom, and then I screw it in place.

Then I use a clamp to hold the hanger in place, and I put two temporary screws at the top. I use screws because it's easier to adjust the position if it isn't quite the way I want it.

I put nails in the holes, then take out the temporary screws and put nails in those holes. Then I remove the spacing block.

Perfect placement every time. I use a palm nailer to drive the nails, it's like magic. I especially appreciate it when I'm on a wobbly stepladder and using one hand to steady myself.

 

[Have tractor did travel]

Quicksandfarmer:
This is a great thread. Historical context, overcome problems, explanatory pictures, well written in concise chronological order. You are a good writer and a good craftsman.
Eric

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Quicksandfarmer:
This is a great thread. Historical context, overcome problems, explanatory pictures, well written in concise chronological order. You are a good writer and a good craftsman.
Eric

Thank you, that's very kind. It helps inspire me to work to be thinking about writing it up.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

A Flush-cut sawzall blade... I was unaware there was such a thing.

Interesting AND I've learnt something!

Never saw one before either

 

[quicksandfarmer]

I finished the floor today!
I have to say this is an epochal event. I've owned this barn for 17 years, and for the first time I can walk around inside without fear of falling into the basement. This changes everything!

 

[buckeyefarmer]

"Stanchion - an upright bar, post, or frame forming a support or barrier.
.

Went back to read from the beginning.

When we had a dairy cow of our farm, I think we called the device used to hold the cow a stanchion.

I have never seen or heard of a barn built with main floor suspended like this. Our barn , and all old timber frame barns use Bents, but normally the floor of a bank barn is supported from below, not suspended from above.

If I’m following you right, you have now supported the first floor from below, so nothing should really be left hanging.

Also have only seen cows kept in the basement level of a barn, not up on a wooden floor.

Amazing work you have done.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

From your description and pics this is what I think your bents look like. The 2 center ones have the rods, the end ones sit on a sill on the foundation, except there is a basement door at one end.
Are lofts floored only on the 2 ends? Or is middle also floored?

 

[quicksandfarmer]

From your description and pics this is what I think your bents look like. The 2 center ones have the rods, the end ones sit on a sill on the foundation, except there is a basement door at one end.
Are lofts floored only on the 2 ends? Or is middle also floored?

That's exactly right. The rods go through the floor beam, then there's a metal plate at the bottom of the rod that the floor beam rests on. Those metal plates have all either rusted or the wood has deformed so the floor beams were all sagging at the rods, I put columns under all of them. The stanchions rest on the floor beam and support the loft beam. Originally the top beam held up the floor beam via the rods, and since the floor beam was holding the loft it held that too. Since I've put the posts under the floor beam it has taken the load off of the rods which means the top beam is holding a lot less than it used to. I don't have a winter's worth of hay in the lofts either.

The center is clear to the ceiling, the lofts are at the two ends.

I haven't been able to learn much about suspension barns other than they are rare. They seem to have been a local specialty in the town I'm in, there's a few that I know of. They all have the same design and orientation, like they were built by the same carpenter. All of them had the same problem with the rods failing.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Went back to read from the beginning.

When we had a dairy cow of our farm, I think we called the device used to hold the cow a stanchion.

I have never seen or heard of a barn built with main floor suspended like this. Our barn , and all old timber frame barns use Bents, but normally the floor of a bank barn is supported from below, not suspended from above.

If I’m following you right, you have now supported the first floor from below, so nothing should really be left hanging.

Also have only seen cows kept in the basement level of a barn, not up on a wooden floor.

Amazing work you have done.

Thanks.

The milking parlor in the barn in this article looks just like mine:

The Milk & Human Kindness: Plans for an Old Style Wooden Stanchion Floor - Small Farmer's Journal

The basic needs that we are addressing here are as follows: To create a sunny, airy (not drafty), dry, convenient, accessible place to bring in our cow or cows, with or without calves, to be comfortably and easily secured for milking and other purposes such as vet checks, AI breeding, etc. where...

smallfarmersjournal.com

We have the same sliding door entry into the milking parlor.

A lot of it is gone but you can see it used to have the same white paint.

There is a trap door that they used to shovel manure down. The old-timers tell me they would park a wagon in the basement under the trap door and take the manure out that way. The lofts would be full of hay, and they'd fork it down to the stalls and then shovel the manure down, letting gravity do as much of the work as they could.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Reading the article, I think the term stanchion floor means the floor with the stanchions, which are used to hold the cow so you could milk it. That’s what ours were used for. I don’t think it applies to the poles between the floors per se , but a stanchion would have been in each of the 9 bays.
Where we milked, we had concrete floor & stanchions Manure trough behind the cows, we had a little door at end of trough to push it outside.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Reading the article, I think the term stanchion floor means the floor with the stanchions, which are used to hold the cow so you could milk it. That’s what ours were used for. I don’t think it applies to the poles between the floors per se , but a stanchion would have been in each of the 9 bays.
Where we milked, we had concrete floor & stanchions Manure trough behind the cows, we had a little door at end of trough to push it outside.

Thanks.

Was your milking parlor oriented a particular way? Every barn like this I've seen the barn is oriented so the long sides face due north and due south. The milking parlor is always at the east end. I had a debate with someone at the historical society about which way the cows would face, in the article it says they faced west and I'm pretty sure they faced west in my barn. But she said in her grandfather's barn they faced east.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Our milking parlor, if you can call it that, was added to the side of our garage, cow faced north. we only had 2 stanchions cause most of our cows were Hereford. I remember helping a friend milk in a large barn where they could do maybe 20 at a time, wipe the teat and put on the Milker. Cows faced both directions as there was at least 2 rows.
Our barn that came with the farm when dad bought it in the 40s, had manure trough running north south, but it was on the east side of the barn. It’s in serious bad shape.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Our milking parlor, if you can call it that, was added to the side of our garage, cow faced north. we only had 2 stanchions cause most of our cows were Hereford. I remember helping a friend milk in a large barn where they could do maybe 20 at a time, wipe the teat and put on the Milker. Cows faced both directions as there was at least 2 rows.
Our barn that came with the farm when dad bought it in the 40s, had manure trough running north south, but it was on the east side of the barn. It’s in serious bad shape.

Manure trough running north south on the east side of the barn would be consistent with cows facing west.

>It’s in serious bad shape.

Nothing some time and money won't fix, that's pretty much what my barn looked like when I started. Of course it's taken me 17 years ...

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Dad built on the shed side of the barn in the early 50s. The very left side is where we fed cows indoors in the winter.
The boards are falling off from the nails rusting.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Today I started pre-production for season 17 of This Old Barn. This season's project is the west wall.

It doesn't look too bad in this picture, which is why I haven't gotten around to it yet.

But the framing has some issues on the inside. This end is where the horses were kept, and the horses had a tendency to chew on things, so the studs in the wall are pretty chewed up:

Here's a closeup of one of the studs:

At some point some 2" boards were nailed across the studs to protect them. I'm afraid to take those boards away now without holding the wall up somehow. Since it's a gable end wall it ordinarily wouldn't hold much weight, but there's a hay loft above that is supported by a ledger board that is let into all of those studs.

If you go back to post #81 at the end of last season, I added a new rim joist so I could replace the floor joists without relying on the rotted sill. This is the section of wall where I did it, and those studs are resting on that rotted sill. So now that I have a solid floor, my plan is to support the loft from below on the floor and take all the weight off of that wall. Then I will go in from the outside, and replace as much of the sill as I need to in order to have something solid for the studs to rest on, and then sister the studs as necessary to make them solid. The window on the first floor was added some time later and the framing around it is really hinky, so I'll clean that up too.

First step is to get all of my junk out of the loft, and then figure out how to brace it from below.