Tier 4

[MinnesotaEric]

Thanks for the info.

Did the Case 75c models go to tier 4 for the '14 model year? The NH site still shows the T4.75 as tier 3, and correct me if I'm wrong, but they are identical to each other aside from a couple visual changes right?

Also, if it is tier 4, does it have the SCR only as well? (I don't even know what that means)

People really blew the whole "tier 4" thing way out of proportion. It almost convinced me to buy a 75C last year from Messicks, but I wasn't financially ready. Thank god I didn't jump on it for fear of the tier 4. It may actually make the tractors better.

As a weekend warrior who puts 100 hrs a year on my tractor, I could care less what I need to do after 3000 hrs of use. Chances are good I'll never see that much.

The take-away of their 4 final (version b) is that you get a quieter engine that gets around 20% better economy.

Me, I pay money for quiet. In fact I had a sound meter application open when I shopped cab on 60 hp tractors.

 

[GManBart]

This isn't all that different from when "modern" emissions controls started being mandated for automobiles. Everyone claimed performance was dead, and that it would ruin all sorts of things in the auto industry. The reality is that cars make more power, are quieter, cleaner, more reliable, faster, get better gas mileage, etc than the old iron (which I still like). It did make them more expensive to buy, and service, but for that added cost you get more performance, and lower operating expenses (fuel). Hopefully having Tier IV development done years ago on the larger machines will mean there are limited growing pains in the CUT/SCUT/Utility market.

I'm looking at new cabbed tractors and I'm not worrying about Tier IV....it is what it is at this point. I doubt it will be my last tractor anyway, so I'll have to bite the bullet eventually.

 

[ShowroomShine]

Thanks for the info.

Did the Case 75c models go to tier 4 for the '14 model year? The NH site still shows the T4.75 as tier 3, and correct me if I'm wrong, but they are identical to each other aside from a couple visual changes right?

Also, if it is tier 4, does it have the SCR only as well? (I don't even know what that means)

People really blew the whole "tier 4" thing way out of proportion. It almost convinced me to buy a 75C last year from Messicks, but I wasn't financially ready. Thank god I didn't jump on it for fear of the tier 4. It may actually make the tractors better.

As a weekend warrior who puts 100 hrs a year on my tractor, I could care less what I need to do after 3000 hrs of use. Chances are good I'll never see that much.

75c is Tier 4 interim right now. New Holland and Case IH tractors are pretty similar (very in fact).

Tier 4 is scary, however you do get much better fuel economy, no reduction in power, and a much quieter tractor. I wish my little SCUT Kioti was Tier 4, that thing could stand to be a few db less.

 

[Cherokee140]

This isn't all that different from when "modern" emissions controls started being mandated for automobiles. Everyone claimed performance was dead, and that it would ruin all sorts of things in the auto industry. The reality is that cars make more power, are quieter, cleaner, more reliable, faster, get better gas mileage, etc than the old iron (which I still like). It did make them more expensive to buy, and service, but for that added cost you get more performance, and lower operating expenses (fuel). Hopefully having Tier IV development done years ago on the larger machines will mean there are limited growing pains in the CUT/SCUT/Utility market.

I'm looking at new cabbed tractors and I'm not worrying about Tier IV....it is what it is at this point. I doubt it will be my last tractor anyway, so I'll have to bite the bullet eventually.

It did take a little while to get there, so many forget how much damage happened to cars right after the switch.....and even cars with heads that had hard seats...they still had heat cracks and destroyed valve train components as well as the seats. The older cars that was just a few hundred $$ to put in the hardened seats and then a lot of labor to R&R the heads....thousands if you had to pay someone to do it.

It was a train wreck, but we made it past.

Problem with americans is they hate change and will fight it tooth and nail. Goes double true if it does nothing but make the costs go up. Look at the digital TV switch not long ago...that was a bit of a mess, with guberment converter boxes and such....now no big deal...but at the time...it was a real problem for some people.

 

[Jim Nelson]

The biggest problem I see is the acceptance of this kind of thing which brings about more of it.I live in California where our crazies are crazier than your crazies and I have a good friend who is buying a 60' sport fisher yacht for $1mil +.This boat has 2- 12V92TA Detroit diesel engines plus a 4 cyl diesel generator all of which we the taxpayer are replacing at no cost to him.Great for him,not so great for the tax payer.This same program has already replaced the power systems in nearly all the Ca. commercial fleet.The same deal has put a bunch of smaller construction companies out of business and cost others millions in re-powering while paying for some others.
The govt. has no money, for every dollar it gives to one it takes from another and due to the corruption that is now accepted as normal it takes $10 to give $1.This tier 3 or 4 or whatever is just sniffing around the edge of a huge cesspool that grows ever larger.
I love my country but despise what our government has become.

 

[Cherokee140]

...
I love my country but despise what our government has become.

So very true. I am not sure what has happened to people, they really seem to have just lost their minds. It is all a who you know, and it is so bent it is just amazing. Solyndra anyone? So much of this is being forced down our neck when we really do not need it. Once this technology becomes a real benefit it will take off. Till then we will just keep handing out billions of your $$ to companies and executives that can not last in the real world. But that is not what it is really all about.

 

[diesel466]

Final Tier 4 on the lower horse power compacts forced most to go from a simple mechanical injection system to electronic systems, Which added thousands to the price and lots of new parts. Even IF they are 20% better on fuel, The average compact owner will never save that much in fuel to cover the cost back. I put about 60 hours a year on my tractor, So I might save 40 dollars a year in fuel. I would like to know how much energy was used to make all the added parts?

 

[GManBart]

Final Tier 4 on the lower horse power compacts forced most to go from a simple mechanical injection system to electronic systems, Which added thousands to the price and lots of new parts. Even IF they are 20% better on fuel, The average compact owner will never save that much in fuel to cover the cost back. I put about 60 hours a year on my tractor, So I might save 40 dollars a year in fuel. I would like to know how much energy was used to make all the added parts?

I'm not so sure that the prices are going to jump that much. I just looked at a Kioti NX5010 HSTC equipped the same as the previous DK50SE HSTC, and the final price was just under $32K, which isn't a whole lot higher than what the DK50HSTCs were running when they were still available.

 

[ozley]

I'm not so sure that the prices are going to jump that much. I just looked at a Kioti NX5010 HSTC equipped the same as the previous DK50SE HSTC, and the final price was just under $32K, which isn't a whole lot higher than what the DK50HSTCs were running when they were still available.

Are you changing tractors again. No you were just there for the coffee right?

 

[jaydee325]

Disclaimer: I bought my LS R3039H last summer (Tier 3). I'm very happy with it.

I needed the tractor last summer to get going on some projects and had the budget for it. If the circumstances dictated that I had to hold of until this year and I was faced with having to buy a Tier 4 tractor, I would not have been concerned.

If I were faced with purchase of a Tier 3 tractor that did not have all of the features I desired and a Tier 4 tractor did have all features desired and was still within the budget (even higher end of budget), I would not hesitate to go Tier 4.

Having said that, I am watching with interest how the regen cycles are working out for the typical occasional CUT owner. I've seen some references that a tractor went into regen on the way to the barn and the owner ended up leaving it run the 20 or so minutes to complete the cycle. A farmer might be running the tractor all day (and part of the night), so the regen cycle would be transparent. Not sure how this will work out for the hobby guys like me.

Be safe.

Bob

 

[GManBart]

Are you changing tractors again. No you were just there for the coffee right?

I really haven't changed tractors multiple times....that's TSO you're thinking about!

I was sort of thinking about getting a tractor with a cab, then someone contacted me that wanted to buy my LS, so we worked out a deal. I'm not considering the XR series because I want a loader that goes about 10-12" higher, and lifts at least as much. So, I went to check out the NX...very nice machine!

 

[diesel466]

When I was looking at kubota l3200 vs new tier 4 l3301, The price differance was over 2,000 more! As an example for parts, the old injectors are 135.00 each , tier 4 electronic injector 531.00 each. Teir 4 added a dpf,egr,ecm,crank sensor,3 temp sensors! They are not going to add all that for free!

 

[balreadysaid]

When I was looking at kubota l3200 vs new tier 4 l3301, The price differance was over 2,000 more! As an example for parts, the old injectors are 135.00 each , tier 4 electronic injector 531.00 each. Teir 4 added a dpf,egr,ecm,crank sensor,3 temp sensors! They are not going to add all that for free!

lol only 4 times as expensive to fix! sign me up! let me sell this junk I got, and ill go get ready to spend my life savings on fixing a new tractor that's bound to break 10 times quicker than the old one. these tier 4 are real quiet especially when they wont run! I wanna pay extra for that:laughing:

just jokin around though I hope they run good in the end.


.

 

[GManBart]

When I was looking at kubota l3200 vs new tier 4 l3301, The price differance was over 2,000 more! As an example for parts, the old injectors are 135.00 each , tier 4 electronic injector 531.00 each. Teir 4 added a dpf,egr,ecm,crank sensor,3 temp sensors! They are not going to add all that for free!

No, not for free, but not doom and gloom like so many people are claiming.

I don't think $1k (ballpark) on a $30k+ tractor is unreasonable (Kioti example) especially when the NX also added a turbo, common rail injection, HST/throttle link, and a number of other improvements.

 

[Dillier23]

I suppose perspective has a lot to do with the increased costs of ownership. Think about it from a large farmer or construction company perspective. They will by 500 HP+ 4x4's that generally cost in the $350,000 to $450,000 price range. Now add 10% to that cost, $35,000 to $45,000, just to add the additional emissions equipment. Just the price increase alone is enough to pay for a lot of our tractors in the garage, shed or barn we own.

Is it really too much to ask for a manufacturer, who did not voluntarily sign up for emissions requirements, to ask at least for the cost of the equipment back from the purchaser? I'll bet you'll find that profit margins did not go up with the price of additional equipment.

 

[MHarryE]

I suppose perspective has a lot to do with the increased costs of ownership. Think about it from a large farmer or construction company perspective. They will by 500 HP+ 4x4's that generally cost in the $350,000 to $450,000 price range. Now add 10% to that cost, $35,000 to $45,000, just to add the additional emissions equipment. Just the price increase alone is enough to pay for a lot of our tractors in the garage, shed or barn we own. Is it really too much to ask for a manufacturer, who did not voluntarily sign up for emissions requirements, to ask at least for the cost of the equipment back from the purchaser? I'll bet you'll find that profit margins did not go up with the price of additional equipment.

I would like to see the price quote where the change to Tier IV final cost those huge $$ on a large piece of equipment. For one thing higher horsepower equipment has been using advanced diesel injection systems for ages. Large farmers and heavy equipment operators have expected things like limited time power boost for years and you don't get that with the antiquated injection systems on the outdated indirect injected engines.

I am surprised at the Kubota replacement cost for an injector. I have several test injectors siting on my desk as a display - for people to ask what those are. Our common rail injectors cost 1/3 of what the previous ones did.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

I would like to see the price quote where the change to Tier IV final cost those huge $$ on a large piece of equipment. For one thing higher horsepower equipment has been using advanced diesel injection systems for ages. Large farmers and heavy equipment operators have expected things like limited time power boost for years and you don't get that with the antiquated injection systems on the outdated indirect injected engines.

I am surprised at the Kubota replacement cost for an injector. I have several test injectors siting on my desk as a display - for people to ask what those are. Our common rail injectors cost 1/3 of what the previous ones did.

I expect prices will come down as the industry shifts and saturates and is subjected to normal market forces. I should ask my sister if Donaldson, for example, plans on getting into the business of making aftermarket replacements--after all, making industrial filters is their business.

Those people who think the new machines will suffer a trade in reduction don't get it. The new machines will suffer no trade in deficiency because new machines will continue to cost more and more.

 

[coobie]

No, not for free, but not doom and gloom like so many people are claiming.

I don't think $1k (ballpark) on a $30k+ tractor is unreasonable (Kioti example) especially when the NX also added a turbo, common rail injection, HST/throttle link, and a number of other improvements.

GManBart,question are the new Kioti cab tractors you are looking at come with radios,windshield wipers,driving lights, rear remote and such or are these options now?

 

[Cherokee140]

I expect prices will come down as the industry shifts and saturates and is subjected to normal market forces. I should ask my sister if Donaldson, for example, plans on getting into the business of making aftermarket replacements--after all, making industrial filters is their business.

Those people who think the new machines will suffer a trade in reduction don't get it. The new machines will suffer no trade in deficiency because new machines will continue to cost more and more.

To a point. I remember working at GM in the early 80's....the end of CCC (computer controlled carburetor) and the start of throttle body and their TPI (Tuned port Injection) injection systems. The General did not want to pay Bosch for the rights to use their fuel injectors so they went to the throttle body, and tried to make their own injectors....called (IIRC) INTech....Independent Technology injectors. To say they sucked would be a HUGE understatement. Very few of the cars got real Bosch Injectors, but if you looked at the costs one was VERY expensive, one was crazy cheap. Or you could say one worked and one did not.

Point of the story is you can't always look at the price of a given part. There may be a behind the scenes story there that drives the price.

 

[GManBart]

GManBart,question are the new Kioti cab tractors you are looking at come with radios,windshield wipers,driving lights, rear remote and such or are these options now?

The radio, rear wiper, rearview mirror, and rear remotes are now optional. The driving lights (they call them safety lights I think) and front wiper are standard. Luckily, the prices are pretty reasonable on the optional stuff....$250 for the radio, under $300 per rear remote, $150 for the rear wiper (I forgot to ask about the rearview mirror). Generally speaking, it's around $750 to make an NX compare to how the DK models came standard.