Tier 4

[coobie]

The radio, rear wiper, rearview mirror, and rear remotes are now optional. The driving lights (they call them safety lights I think) and front wiper are standard. Luckily, the prices are pretty reasonable on the optional stuff....$250 for the radio, under $300 per rear remote, $150 for the rear wiper (I forgot to ask about the rearview mirror). Generally speaking, it's around $750 to make an NX compare to how the DK models came standard.

Thanks,I was curious.

 

[grm61]

The new tier 4 tractors, are very nice, and I am sure they would be pleasurable to use, but you are going to have to be OK with hauling it to the dealer and spending the money when things go south, while the dealer throws parts at it..oh this was wrong, oh that was wrong, all the while charging you, until they get lucky and throw the right $art at it.

With the potential for things to go wrong, I kind of equate owning one tier 4 unit, to owning four or five DK 45s and running them all at the same time, this is just my opinion, your mileage may vary

Do you think your local tractor dealer that has been selling tier 3 machines is going to have a GOOD tech on hand to diagnose and repair these modern, electronic emission systems?
A code will often point you in the right direction but could be 3 or four different component$ or...could be grounds, bad wire in the wiring harne$$ SOMEWHERE, resistance in a plug or wire, broken or chewed wire....
These new tier 4 rigs have got alot of wiring, and it all has to be good for all this electronical wizardry to work right...or even correctly diagnose, time is money on both ends.

I'm getting older, to me less is more, my DK 45 motor rattles a little bit, but its pretty quite in the Cab

You guys that are brave enough to put your nuts on the stump good luck to ya:thumbsup:

So to the OP ....Tier3=simple, mostly mechanical controls and injection.........Tier 4=complex elecronics, high pressure common rail electronic injection,and emmison controls, you decide what is best for you

 

[GManBart]

The new tier 4 tractors, are very nice, and I am sure they would be pleasurable to use, but you are going to have to be OK with hauling it to the dealer and spending the money when things go south, while the dealer throws parts at it..oh this was wrong, oh that was wrong, all the while charging you, until they get lucky and throw the right $art at it.

With the potential for things to go wrong, I kind of equate owning one tier 4 unit, to owning four or five DK 45s and running them all at the same time, this is just my opinion, your mileage may vary

Do you think your local tractor dealer that has been selling tier 3 machines is going to have a GOOD tech on hand to diagnose and repair these modern, electronic emission systems?
A code will often point you in the right direction but could be 3 or four different component$ or...could be grounds, bad wire in the wiring harne$$ SOMEWHERE, resistance in a plug or wire, broken or chewed wire....
These new tier 4 rigs have got alot of wiring, and it all has to be good for all this electronical wizardry to work right...or even correctly diagnose, time is money on both ends.

I'm getting older, to me less is more, my DK 45 motor rattles a little bit, but its pretty quite in the Cab

You guys that are brave enough to put your nuts on the stump good luck to ya:thumbsup:

So to the OP ....Tier3=simple, mostly mechanical controls and injection.........Tier 4=complex elecronics, high pressure common rail electronic injection,and emmison controls, you decide what is best for you

Lots of assumptions, and flat out guesses in that statement (aside from the opinions, of course).

Some of those same dealers also sell and service larger machines that have had Tier IV equipment on them for years now, so the learning curve shouldn't be too steep.

This isn't really new technology, it's just new for this small of a machine. SCUT/CUT/Utility tractors are almost certainly a less demanding application compared some of the larger machines that have had Tier IV stuff on them for a long time now.

I guess we'll all see what happens, but the manufacturers have had years to be ready for this, and they got lots of experience and practice implementing the changes on the larger machines, so there's a good chance it will be a non-event.

 

[nova3930]

If you're concerned about maintenace at the dealer with the introduction of new tech, you should be concerned with whether or not the manufacturer is providing good service manuals to the dealers. A dealer with techs who have good mechanical know how coupled with a good service manual should be able to handle anything without much problem. If you're missing one of those two components you're going to have issues though...

 

[grm61]

Lots of assumptions, and flat out guesses in that statement (aside from the opinions, of course).

Some of those same dealers also sell and service larger machines that have had Tier IV equipment on them for years now, so the learning curve shouldn't be too steep.

This isn't really new technology, it's just new for this small of a machine. SCUT/CUT/Utility tractors are almost certainly a less demanding application compared some of the larger machines that have had Tier IV stuff on them for a long time now.

I guess we'll all see what happens, but the manufacturers have had years to be ready for this, and they got lots of experience and practice implementing the changes on the larger machines, so there's a good chance it will be a non-event.

My opinions are based largely on what I have seen on the trucks at work.
I'm a driver, Yes I am assuming that the systems on the tractors are going to be similar, smaller, 3 or 4 cyl instead of six and smaller displacement, the earlier trucks that they own don't use urea, the later ones do.
They have 48 Peterbuilts from 2007 to 2014, every one of them, including the 2014s have had issues of one sort or another, We have a sharp young guy in their now that can work on them, and he is good, the other 4 guys do the nuts and bolts stuff.

Before they hired this sharp young guy, almost every truck we had was de=rated with a CEL on, or getting the red light, and bells of death shutting down all the time.

This kid has got them all running well now, but not without cost, wiring harnesses, egr coolers, DPF Filters, fuel actuaters, injectors, ECMs, fuel pressure sensors , fuel temperature sensors, coolant sensors,ETC.

It's on ongoing thing, there are a couple in the shop right now for emmisions related problems.

The point of my post was to point out that their are alot of things that could give one fits from time to time, and if they are anything like the trucks, will.

So ya, my views are somewhat tainted, When I started looking at tractors last year I really wasn't ready to buy, then I learned about the upcoming tier 4 machines and got er done
I do sincerely hope that the new machines are trouble free, but I was not willing to take the chance.

 

[DarkBlack]

Yup, sales supporters posting of getting a shiny stainless exhaust, or "improved performance", are really "putting lipstick on a pig".

 

[coobie]

My opinions are based largely on what I have seen on the trucks at work.
I'm a driver, Yes I am assuming that the systems on the tractors are going to be similar, smaller, 3 or 4 cyl instead of six and smaller displacement, the earlier trucks that they own don't use urea, the later ones do.
They have 48 Peterbuilts from 2007 to 2014, every one of them, including the 2014s have had issues of one sort or another, We have a sharp young guy in their now that can work on them, and he is good, the other 4 guys do the nuts and bolts stuff.

Before they hired this sharp young guy, almost every truck we had was de=rated with a CEL on, or getting the red light, and bells of death shutting down all the time.

This kid has got them all running well now, but not without cost, wiring harnesses, egr coolers, DPF Filters, fuel actuaters, injectors, ECMs, fuel pressure sensors , fuel temperature sensors, coolant sensors,ETC.

It's on ongoing thing, there are a couple in the shop right now for emmisions related problems.

The point of my post was to point out that their are alot of things that could give one fits from time to time, and if they are anything like the trucks, will.

So ya, my views are somewhat tainted, When I started looking at tractors last year I really wasn't ready to buy, then I learned about the upcoming tier 4 machines and got er done
I do sincerely hope that the new machines are trouble free, but I was not willing to take the chance.

Have to agree with you.I am a retired electric lineman as we started to get new line trucks(international) the last few years they had regen systems on them.What a PIA they were always broke down for some reason or another.The problems I seen were mostly the regen and electric issues.

 

[F3506]

I expect prices will come down as the industry shifts and saturates and is subjected to normal market forces. I should ask my sister if Donaldson, for example, plans on getting into the business of making aftermarket replacements--after all, making industrial filters is their business.

There are several aftermarket companies (including Donaldson) who produce catalytic converters. Those aren't exactly cheap, and they introduced those when? Mid 70's or so it seems like? How long will we have to wait till a DPF is affordable, and will these new electronic gizmos still be running by then?

Those people who think the new machines will suffer a trade in reduction don't get it. The new machines will suffer no trade in deficiency because new machines will continue to cost more and more.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There have been occasions where the first generation implementation of a new technology is a failure compared to later generations so the value of gen 1 products nosedives.

Of course maybe there's a chance some of the aftermarket tuning companies come up with a plan to ditch stuff like the DPF and make it work without it like they've done on some of the trucks.

 

[ShowroomShine]

The new tier 4 tractors, are very nice, and I am sure they would be pleasurable to use, but you are going to have to be OK with hauling it to the dealer and spending the money when things go south, while the dealer throws parts at it..oh this was wrong, oh that was wrong, all the while charging you, until they get lucky and throw the right $art at it.

With the potential for things to go wrong, I kind of equate owning one tier 4 unit, to owning four or five DK 45s and running them all at the same time, this is just my opinion, your mileage may vary

Do you think your local tractor dealer that has been selling tier 3 machines is going to have a GOOD tech on hand to diagnose and repair these modern, electronic emission systems?
A code will often point you in the right direction but could be 3 or four different component$ or...could be grounds, bad wire in the wiring harne$$ SOMEWHERE, resistance in a plug or wire, broken or chewed wire....
These new tier 4 rigs have got alot of wiring, and it all has to be good for all this electronical wizardry to work right...or even correctly diagnose, time is money on both ends.

I'm getting older, to me less is more, my DK 45 motor rattles a little bit, but its pretty quite in the Cab

You guys that are brave enough to put your nuts on the stump good luck to ya:thumbsup:

So to the OP ....Tier3=simple, mostly mechanical controls and injection.........Tier 4=complex elecronics, high pressure common rail electronic injection,and emmison controls, you decide what is best for you

Um, not so fast. Tier 4 really adds no more electronics or hardware than a computer controlled Tier 3 machine. As I said, basically you get a cool stainless muffler and a little different user experience.

And to address your other question, in our dealership, all tech's have to be Tier 4 certified and/or trained to be able to move forward with Tier 4 machines.

 

[MHarryE]

Unless somebody screws up, the DPF should be good for the life of the tractor although they may require cleaning. Many shops around are now able to clean DPF's, cost dependent on how badly it is dirtied up (raw fuel getting to the DPF can gunk it up and require extra cleaning). I assumed Denso is the Kubota injector supplier, and they make a super injector. One problem with high pressure common rail systems is the high pressure (some are 30,000 psi or more) vs the 2400 psi on my L5740 is abrasive. Denso injectors are especially wear resistant, better even than Bosch. As far as mechanics knowing how to work on the engines, buying Deere should ease one's concerns because they have had common rail for many years. What is new on CUTs is old hat to them.

 

[diesel466]

Maybe on your machines there was little change, But most compact tractors were still mechanical injection,So it is a total new deal with the electronic injection.

 

[grm61]

Um, not so fast. Tier 4 really adds no more electronics or hardware than a computer controlled Tier 3 machine. As I said, basically you get a cool stainless muffler and a little different user experience.

Your nothing more than a talking head salesman.
You don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Piston]

Your nothing more than a talking head salesman. You don't know what you are talking about.

Why do you say that? Do you have anything constructive to add to the conversation?

When you say he doesn't know what he is talking about, can you explain why you feel this way?

It's incredible how personal some people take these online conversations.

 

[the old grind]

It seems an adjustment we'll all have to make is to get over thinking that more gadgetry is more to go wrong and more headaches to come as we learn to accept the new rules & accompanying hardware. My latest 'Tier-IV A' CUT might be but a very well done, even maxed-out EGR & traditional injection somewhere on the ramp up from T-III to T-IV Final specs, but is still simple and I got in 'just under the wire', as they say.

What might really suck for us Luddites is when buying a healthy late model used machine someday offers few choices without the fancy systems that we expect to go South any day now and be more fu$$ to patch up. While I no longer feel the car/truck systems are tougher to tend to than the old carbs & points and do appreciate the mileage and emissions improvements there may be much more variety in diagnostic & testing gear or technology in the tractor & equip realm. Simple as OBD-I & OBD-2, or so different from brand to brand it skews the resale value or popularity for some vs others? Not obvious to all, I bet.

Those of us spreading fewer annual operating hours over more machines won't feel the same pinch as those who depend on one for the bulk of many more hours use and be the hardest hit by any cost of keeping up. 10-20 ac and three sizes of tractor (newer, Grandpa's classic, & a 'show' toy) can mean just jumping on another for tasks within more than one's capability, not so big a deal. Needing to rely on that one bigger machine with cab, backhoe, etc for hundreds of hrs/year is enough to scare a lot of other folks & I feel their concerns.

Doesn't help that in these times company profits seem to trump consumer value/cost in the eyes of government regulators and with the influence of a 'green' mentality that's demanding these 'improvements' so the US can fix the World's problems by ourselves as always. Could get to where dieing sooner seems less intimidating than facing that uncertain future. (always something good to say about being old, but rising COL isn't our cup o' tea) Anyway, to me the fan is spinnin' away & the doodie is dripping onto it already.

btw: My break was finding a nice '99 Deere UT that's bone dry from top to bottom, save for my drool on the operating platform, and is as traditionally simple as I like 'em. Good luck, guys.

 

[Cherokee140]

You are spot on. I saw this first hand in the car business. Some dealers, large volume dealers took a very long time to get up to speed. Dealers are not wanting to spend the money on training, thinking that the tech "can figure it out"....after all "they have done it for years" or "they are young and grew up at a computer"....all are very wrong statements. These systems are so different even from one brand to the next....even if it is the same system, the way they do it is different. Makes no difference how long they have serviced it, it is how they view their service department....how they spend money on training. You might get lucky and get one that knows what they are doing....but chances are you are going to come in with a "driveability" problem and they will toss parts at it....in many cases you will be doing that anyway if you know what you are doing. Pulling the part checking resistance, or voltage drop or whatever takes more time then just sticking a new part in and seeing if it is fixed....and if not guess what you needed that part replaced anyway because the wire chewed removed the ground to the sensor and it fried anyway.

Make no mistake this is going to cost you more money....all the way down the road and if you don't think so....well enjoy your time in dream land.

My opinions are based largely on what I have seen on the trucks at work.
I'm a driver, Yes I am assuming that the systems on the tractors are going to be similar, smaller, 3 or 4 cyl instead of six and smaller displacement, the earlier trucks that they own don't use urea, the later ones do.
They have 48 Peterbuilts from 2007 to 2014, every one of them, including the 2014s have had issues of one sort or another, We have a sharp young guy in their now that can work on them, and he is good, the other 4 guys do the nuts and bolts stuff.

Before they hired this sharp young guy, almost every truck we had was de=rated with a CEL on, or getting the red light, and bells of death shutting down all the time.

This kid has got them all running well now, but not without cost, wiring harnesses, egr coolers, DPF Filters, fuel actuaters, injectors, ECMs, fuel pressure sensors , fuel temperature sensors, coolant sensors,ETC.

It's on ongoing thing, there are a couple in the shop right now for emmisions related problems.

The point of my post was to point out that their are alot of things that could give one fits from time to time, and if they are anything like the trucks, will.

So ya, my views are somewhat tainted, When I started looking at tractors last year I really wasn't ready to buy, then I learned about the upcoming tier 4 machines and got er done
I do sincerely hope that the new machines are trouble free, but I was not willing to take the chance.

 

[ShowroomShine]

Maybe on your machines there was little change, But most compact tractors were still mechanical injection,So it is a total new deal with the electronic injection.

I was not referring to a compact tractor, I was more referring to a larger 75hp+ machine.

 

[ShowroomShine]

Your nothing more than a talking head salesman.
You don't know what you are talking about.

Care to explain?

 

[diesel466]

I was not referring to a compact tractor, I was more referring to a larger 75hp+ machine.

The original post was asking about sub and compact tractors,its lots of changes to that class of tractor. I was just trying to point that out.

 

[bad69bird]

My opinions are based largely on what I have seen on the trucks at work.
I'm a driver, Yes I am assuming that the systems on the tractors are going to be similar, smaller, 3 or 4 cyl instead of six and smaller displacement, the earlier trucks that they own don't use urea, the later ones do.
They have 48 Peterbuilts from 2007 to 2014, every one of them, including the 2014s have had issues of one sort or another, We have a sharp young guy in their now that can work on them, and he is good, the other 4 guys do the nuts and bolts stuff.

Before they hired this sharp young guy, almost every truck we had was de=rated with a CEL on, or getting the red light, and bells of death shutting down all the time.

This kid has got them all running well now, but not without cost, wiring harnesses, egr coolers, DPF Filters, fuel actuaters, injectors, ECMs, fuel pressure sensors , fuel temperature sensors, coolant sensors,ETC.

It's on ongoing thing, there are a couple in the shop right now for emmisions related problems.

The point of my post was to point out that their are alot of things that could give one fits from time to time, and if they are anything like the trucks, will.

So ya, my views are somewhat tainted, When I started looking at tractors last year I really wasn't ready to buy, then I learned about the upcoming tier 4 machines and got er done
I do sincerely hope that the new machines are trouble free, but I was not willing to take the chance.

I agree 100% with you I also am not quite ready to buy until fall but with 0% and about to run out and dwindling new tier 3 machines I hope to be a proud new owner tomorrow

 

[Dillier23]

Wow, this turned from informative to a real emotionally driven pursuit against technology and the folks that tried to explain the new equipment knowledgeably. ShowRoomShine does know what he's talking about, he's been to numerous functions that have went into Tier 4 technology in depth. How do I know? Because the company he sells tractors for is the same company I have done training for the last two years. Case has done millions of hours of testing on this "new" equipment for many years.

All the dealerships that sell top branded tractors ie. Deere, Kubota, Agco, Case IH all have service technician training requirements that have to be met at each dealership. If this training is not completed the dealership is penalized for not having competent service techs.

The information being presented about "all" the trucks at work being broke down due to emissions equipment seems assumptive, is this based on the trucks without emissions equipment never being broke down? All equipment has it's weak points, saying a car with cruise control and electric windows will have less resale value in the future would be considered crazy talk now days. We have all adapted to new technology, along with it's hiccups, but the issues do get worked out and we then consider it to be normal "stuff" that's in a car or on a tractor. Who would argue that the hydrostatic transmission will be a failure and cost too much to fix on a new tractor? I'll bet when it was first introduced that exact argument was being made, now the majority of compacts sold have a hydro transmission.

Here's my two cents on buying a Tier 4 machine. If you don't want one, don't buy one. There are plenty of used machines in the market, buy one of those and let the someone else buy the new units.