Tier 4

[coobie]

Wow, this turned from informative to a real emotionally driven pursuit against technology and the folks that tried to explain the new equipment knowledgeably. ShowRoomShine does know what he's talking about, he's been to numerous functions that have went into Tier 4 technology in depth. How do I know? Because the company he sells tractors for is the same company I have done training for the last two years. Case has done millions of hours of testing on this "new" equipment for many years.

All the dealerships that sell top branded tractors ie. Deere, Kubota, Agco, Case IH all have service technician training requirements that have to be met at each dealership. If this training is not completed the dealership is penalized for not having competent service techs.

The information being presented about "all" the trucks at work being broke down due to emissions equipment seems assumptive, is this based on the trucks without emissions equipment never being broke down? All equipment has it's weak points, saying a car with cruise control and electric windows will have less resale value in the future would be considered crazy talk now days. We have all adapted to new technology, along with it's hiccups, but the issues do get worked out and we then consider it to be normal "stuff" that's in a car or on a tractor. Who would argue that the hydrostatic transmission will be a failure and cost too much to fix on a new tractor? I'll bet when it was first introduced that exact argument was being made, now the majority of compacts sold have a hydro transmission.

Here's my two cents on buying a Tier 4 machine. If you don't want one, don't buy one. There are plenty of used machines in the market, buy one of those and let the someone else buy the new units.

No assumption on my part.Our new diesel engine 2012-2014 line trucks had MANY issues with the regen & electronics.Heck I even seen it with my OWN TWO EYES.

 

[chopped]

Interesting reading. I dont see any consideration for the amount of running time and fuel used and how the huge price increase is going to turn away some people from buying new.Very similiar to what they did with cars.
just don't seem to be really serving much purpose when I only burn about 15 or 20 gallons a year. I guess ill continue to pollute and feel good about the older tractors.
I assume that the dealers feel people will pay the huge increases. But then again most people are not paying for the tractors these days they are on payment plans.

 

[nova3930]

"Man I just can't believe they're getting rid of carbeurators for fuel injection. Those carbeurators just work man. There's no way fuel injection can be reliable. And they're doing this after they already got rid of ignition points." - Some guys back in the 80s....

 

[GManBart]

Interesting reading. I dont see any consideration for the amount of running time and fuel used and how the huge price increase is going to turn away some people from buying new.

What huge price increase? It looks like maybe $1000 or so (on a $30K machine) from what I've seen lately. I'm not saying that's chump change, but it's not a huge difference.

 

[chopped]

LOL good one made me smile and chuckle. 1000 is alot even on a 100,000 grand one to mre. Its all relative.

What huge price increase? It looks like maybe $1000 or so (on a $30K machine) from what I've seen lately. I'm not saying that's chump change, but it's not a huge difference.

 

[GManBart]

LOL good one made me smile and chuckle. 1000 is alot even on a 100,000 grand one to mre. Its all relative.

Glad you had a laugh, but the math doesn't support it.

I already pointed out that for that $1000 increase (ballpark) they added a bunch of features, so it's really almost no increase at all (I was comparing a Kioti DK to NX).

They added a function to the HST that links pedal position to throttle, added stall guard, improved the cruise control so it holds ground speed rather than engine just RPM, added PTO cruise control, added auto PTO control and increased the 3pt lift capacity by 750lbs. The interior is also nicer, and they made a very slight improvement to the loader.

If you compare the two models, the NX is a better machine, with at least $1K worth of improvements, and it uses less fuel per hour on top of all of that. So, while the price is a bit higher, you get more for it. If other brands are terribly different, then I guess they're just sticking it to their customers because they can get away with it (some of them have been doing that all along).

 

[DarkBlack]

Interesting reading. I dont see any consideration for the amount of running time and fuel used and how the huge price increase is going to turn away some people from buying new.Very similiar to what they did with cars.
just don't seem to be really serving much purpose when I only burn about 15 or 20 gallons a year. I guess ill continue to pollute and feel good about the older tractors.
I assume that the dealers feel people will pay the huge increases. But then again most people are not paying for the tractors these days they are on payment plans.

Agreed. You have to pay for all the emissions complexities to burn 20 gallons a year on a little tractor, but it's OK to burn 1,000 gallons a winter of HHO with a simple burner.

 

[DarkBlack]

Um, not so fast. Tier 4 really adds no more electronics or hardware than a computer controlled Tier 3 machine. As I said, basically you get a cool stainless muffler and a little different user experience.

OK. Let's pretend we believe that for a second. Then please explain how a singular tractor addition: That being a "cool stainless muffler" accomplish a "different user experience"??

 

[ShowroomShine]

OK. Let's pretend we believe that for a second. Then please explain how a singular tractor addition: That being a "cool stainless muffler" accomplish a "different user experience"??

Because on the exact same electronic display that was on Tier 3 tractors...a little icon comes up and says "regen". Thats it, most of the customers I have demonstrated this to commented that if I hadn't told them the machine would do this they would never have known.

 

[grm61]

Because on the exact same electronic display that was on Tier 3 tractors...a little icon comes up and says "regen". Thats it, most of the customers I have demonstrated this to commented that if I hadn't told them the machine would do this they would never have known.

Would you please tell me who makes the TIER 3 CUT that is computer controlled, and has the display that says regen?

 

[grm61]

Wow, this turned from informative to a real emotionally driven pursuit against technology and the folks that tried to explain the new equipment knowledgeably. ShowRoomShine does know what he's talking about, he's been to numerous functions that have went into Tier 4 technology in depth. How do I know? Because the company he sells tractors for is the same company I have done training for the last two years. Case has done millions of hours of testing on this "new" equipment for many years. .

Wow, thats wierd, because I 'm pretty sure LS makes the cuts FOR Case IH, none of the tier 3 LS cuts were computer controlled to my knowledge.
The OP was inquiring about the differences between a tier3 Cut and a tier4 Cut.

 

[bajabum]

Not to change the thread (too much) but why does my Ford dealer send me a postcard every few months trying to buy back my 2004 F250 with the supposedly horrible 6.0 diesel?

I've heard there's a premium for the earlier pre 200? diesels.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Not to change the thread (too much) but why does my Ford dealer send me a postcard every few months trying to buy back my 2004 F250 with the supposedly horrible 6.0 diesel?

I've heard there's a premium for the earlier pre 200? diesels.

Because your Ford dealer makes a living by selling things.

Most new car sales legitimatize the far more profitable used car sales operation (I have a friend that does accounting for auto dealers).

 

[ShowroomShine]

Would you please tell me who makes the TIER 3 CUT that is computer controlled, and has the display that says regen?

As I've said in an earlier post, I am referring to larger machines. Yes the OP was talking about CUT's, however the subject has been modified in 8 pages of posts to where I felt the need to give an example for larger equipment.

Yes, on a 50hp and under tractor, you will likely incur some cost and extra wiring due to Tier 4 emissions. Over 50hp (and especially over 75hp), you'd hardly notice the difference if it wasent there. I'm trying to give examples as to why Tier 4 should not be viewed as a bad thing.

As Diller23 said, if you dont like it, dont buy it. Simple as that.

 

[Jim Nelson]

My problem with all this isn't the technology but rather the reason behind the need for it.Anything mandated by the government should be looked at closely.If you look at geology it's obvious that climate and weather has changed since the beginning of time and will continue til the end and there is nothing you or I or some flannel mouthed politician can do about it. We can adapt to it as we have with modern homes equipped with heating and cooling but that all comes with a cost which we must decide if it's worth it in our individual instance. To have the government say we all have to conform to any standard they deem acceptable just goes against the grain with me.As some many guys have posted here,most of us use our tractors minimally and cause little or no pollution yet get stuck with the cost.
Yes I am sick and tired of what our government has become and am prejudiced against them but I try to use common sense when looking at this, as I think most of us do,but I think too many people are willing to accept whatever they force on us and that's not good in the long run. The only thing government creates is more government and all this regulation of engines is a prime example.
Again, to be clear, the technology is not what I object to ,but the reason behind it.

 

[chopped]

WELL SAID>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My problem with all this isn't the technology but rather the reason behind the need for it.Anything mandated by the government should be looked at closely.If you look at geology it's obvious that climate and weather has changed since the beginning of time and will continue til the end and there is nothing you or I or some flannel mouthed politician can do about it. We can adapt to it as we have with modern homes equipped with heating and cooling but that all comes with a cost which we must decide if it's worth it in our individual instance. To have the government say we all have to conform to any standard they deem acceptable just goes against the grain with me.As some many guys have posted here,most of us use our tractors minimally and cause little or no pollution yet get stuck with the cost.
Yes I am sick and tired of what our government has become and am prejudiced against them but I try to use common sense when looking at this, as I think most of us do,but I think too many people are willing to accept whatever they force on us and that's not good in the long run. The only thing government creates is more government and all this regulation of engines is a prime example.
Again, to be clear, the technology is not what I object to ,but the reason behind it.

 

[bilrus61]

Ok my Kubota M7040 has EGR. That means some of the particles stay in the oil rather than the exaust. Ok now when I change out my oil I return it to my dealer that burns it in a oil fired heater they use to heat their shop in winter. Ok don't that mean the prticles end up in the air anyhow??

 

[GManBart]

My problem with all this isn't the technology but rather the reason behind the need for it.Anything mandated by the government should be looked at closely.If you look at geology it's obvious that climate and weather has changed since the beginning of time and will continue til the end and there is nothing you or I or some flannel mouthed politician can do about it. We can adapt to it as we have with modern homes equipped with heating and cooling but that all comes with a cost which we must decide if it's worth it in our individual instance. To have the government say we all have to conform to any standard they deem acceptable just goes against the grain with me.As some many guys have posted here,most of us use our tractors minimally and cause little or no pollution yet get stuck with the cost.
Yes I am sick and tired of what our government has become and am prejudiced against them but I try to use common sense when looking at this, as I think most of us do,but I think too many people are willing to accept whatever they force on us and that's not good in the long run. The only thing government creates is more government and all this regulation of engines is a prime example.
Again, to be clear, the technology is not what I object to ,but the reason behind it.

If you think all of this clean air stuff is nonsense, look at what is happening in China. They ran rampant for years, and now it's so bad they're starting to implement measures to reduce the rights of people to own regular cars. Yes, their main problem is coal power plants, but it all adds up.

 

[dave1949]

Ok my Kubota M7040 has EGR. That means some of the particles stay in the oil rather than the exaust. Ok now when I change out my oil I return it to my dealer that burns it in a oil fired heater they use to heat their shop in winter. Ok don't that mean the prticles end up in the air anyhow??

I'll bet they do, however that's sort of like saying it's okay to shoot someone because they are going to die anyways. :laughing:

Waste oil furnace pollution is not an excuse for engine pollution. How many gallons of oil are burned in low-tech waste oil furnaces compared to the gallons of diesel fuel burned in an ever-growing number of engines? Yes, in a perfect world that waste oil furnace would need to meet stricter standards too.

Expecting that everyone and everything should be perfect before we ourselves should be troubled to do something is unrealistic, among other attributes.

 

[the old grind]

China's problem is locally contained as in SoCal's fog & smog zone driven by geography, weather, and civilization working in unison. Long ago, Native American campfires there foretold conditions that have continued into our time.

Temperature fluctuations have peaks & valleys, short term and long term. Much of the recent hubbub is the result of seeing a rapid change over say two decades and projecting it into the future as both trends are seen together racing upward. Think that an stock or your home's value will rise indefinitely? Well in financing that's called a bubble.

While recent attitudes seem alarmist, it's a greater perspective that shows a gradual long-term temp rise. What many of us in our inertia are struggling with is a perceived attitude that since we're considered by some a major cause and our efforts to forestall aren't enough without showing a halt or perhaps reversal of the progression. (not likely)

What can't be denied is that the planet is heating up. But, what upsets many of us is feeling we're being asked to 'fix' this thru' drastic measures within our own generation. It's gonna get worse for us, but for the long term we'd be wise if not content to accept it one way or another. IMO a few years of temp decline wouldn't do more than stir the debate.

'Green' concepts will bear out over time but our contribution either way can't or won't be quantified to the nth degree in a mere lifetime. IMO pollution warrants our attention on par with temp rise, as we might suffocate ourselves long before we cook ourselves. If governments aren't doing the right things, at least they're getting our attention. :2cents: