Tier 4

TMR · Jan 4, 2016

Duplicate

Helitech · Jan 4, 2016

I like my tier 4 Branson. DOC with mechanical injection! The only computer is to monitor the health of the DOC.

Snowback · Jan 4, 2016

MHarryE said:
The first 22 years of my engineering career involved combines where we left our exhaust behind us, well behind us. With Cat I was where to send the exhaust so you don't kill the crew, a requirement from our customers.

LOL! Thanks for the good info all the way around.

MessickFarmEqu · Jan 5, 2016

Snowback said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9Ya1mp4cO0

Take care everyone!

Hey that's me!

For what its worth, there is a HUGE amount of marginally correct or flat out wrong information in this thread. I don't have the hours it would take to correct it all, but for what its worth... information gleaned from internet forums should not be considered gospel.

countrybumpkin · Jan 5, 2016

MessickFarmEqu said:
Hey that's me! For what its worth, there is a HUGE amount of marginally correct or flat out wrong information in this thread. I don't have the hours it would take to correct it all, but for what its worth... information gleaned from internet forums should not be considered gospel.

What do you mean, It's on the Internet so it has to be true!!!

Snowback · Jan 5, 2016

MessickFarmEqu said:
Hey that's me!

For what its worth, there is a HUGE amount of marginally correct or flat out wrong information in this thread. I don't have the hours it would take to correct it all, but for what its worth... information gleaned from internet forums should not be considered gospel.

In all seriousness I for one appreciate the candid and thorough explanations and videos that are produced and provided by Messick's and others with superior knowledge on any topic. These tools provide great info for all of us who are learning and trying to find the information we require to make good decisions to address our individual needs. Thank you for sharing.

I believe at the end of the day that most all tractors are very good machines with very good technologies. Each and every brand or size has its pros and cons. What can really help make the overall experience of owning and operating a tractor truly great is having a good and knowledgeable dealer nearby to help keep the wheels turning. It's as important, if not more so, than one off features or minor technological differences between brands. (And of course it also nice to have input from many individuals on TBN helping out by sharing their opinions and experiences.) I believe that good dealers and our knowledgeable compadres on TBN will still be around and useful as we progress through the next 15 tiers of diesel emissions requirements in the coming decades!

truckdiagnostics · Jan 5, 2016

MessickFarmEqu said:
Hey that's me!

For what its worth, there is a HUGE amount of marginally correct or flat out wrong information in this thread. I don't have the hours it would take to correct it all, but for what its worth... information gleaned from internet forums should not be considered gospel.

Excellent video, cleared up a ton of questions for me.
Can I ask you a couple questions?
On the older model tractor where the must depress button to engage auto regen, what happens when they do not?

truckdiagnostics · Jan 5, 2016

truckdiagnostics said:
Going to go out on a limb again. I think you are going to see gas engines offered in your light/utility tractors. The hobby farm/residential owners are going to have a hard time justifying the increase in purchase and maintenance costs for diesel. Cummins did not jump into bed with westport for grins. Cummins Westport - About Us Yes, Cummins has gas engines in there product line. A Cummins Gasoline Engine? - Diesel Progress - July 2014 So, Cummins has had a good relationship with New Holland. My prediction is you will see gas fired engines in New Holland tractors sooner than latter. Maybe some other tractor manufacturer first, but it just makes sense.
Steve

Let me ADD that Cummins also has an emissions division. So, even though it is not there engine it maybe there controls.
Sucuri WebSite Firewall - CloudProxy - Access Denied

MessickFarmEqu · Jan 7, 2016

truckdiagnostics said:
Excellent video, cleared up a ton of questions for me.
Can I ask you a couple questions?
On the older model tractor where the must depress button to engage auto regen, what happens when they do not?

lights will flash on the dash once the DPF restricts telling them to do it, if they ignore that and keep running eventually they will end up in "limp" mode, if they still keep running it shuts down and you need a laptop to recover the machine.

we probably see as many problems with these systems from simple operator ignorance than we do from actual mechanical issues.

5030 · Jan 7, 2016

MessickFarmEqu said:
lights will flash on the dash once the DPF restricts telling them to do it, if they ignore that and keep running eventually they will end up in "limp" mode, if they still keep running it shuts down and you need a laptop to recover the machine.

we probably see as many problems with these systems from simple operator ignorance than we do from actual mechanical issues.

Spoken like a true retailer.....

truckdiagnostics · Jan 7, 2016

MessickFarmEqu said:
lights will flash on the dash once the DPF restricts telling them to do it, if they ignore that and keep running eventually they will end up in "limp" mode, if they still keep running it shuts down and you need a laptop to recover the machine.

we probably see as many problems with these systems from simple operator ignorance than we do from actual mechanical issues.

Once it goes into limp mode can the operator still do a regen? Do you know an amount of time they can ignore it?
Once you have to do a service regen, can the customer have the DPF cleaned? then install and not need service call to reset ecm?
Thanks again.

truckdiagnostics · Jan 7, 2016

5030 said:
Spoken like a true retailer.....

By the time they got to the tractors they had most of the bugs worked out, so I agree with him.

MessickFarmEqu · Jan 8, 2016

truckdiagnostics said:
Once it goes into limp mode can the operator still do a regen? Do you know an amount of time they can ignore it?
Once you have to do a service regen, can the customer have the DPF cleaned? then install and not need service call to reset ecm?
Thanks again.

Yea, the operator can do a parked regen in limp mode. The amount of time you can get buy will all depend on the exhaust stream. You can't really put times to anything with a DPF as its all determined by the operating conditions.

I'll screw up some detail of this, but there are 5 stages to the cleaning requirement. Running regen indicator - parked regen indicator - derate - laptop regren required - dead. When you get to the bottom stages the only recovery option is plugging in the laptop, cleaning it won't do it. some of these things run on timers.. its not all sensors. Really buy the point that's required, the operator has ignored notifications for hours and on most machines where auto-regen is the default they would have had to bypass the regen several times.

Maybe I'll do another video on this sometime that goes over some of this detail, and shows the regen process running with a laptop hooked up. Thats when these things clicked for me.

MessickFarmEqu · Jan 8, 2016

truckdiagnostics said:
Once it goes into limp mode can the operator still do a regen? Do you know an amount of time they can ignore it?
Once you have to do a service regen, can the customer have the DPF cleaned? then install and not need service call to reset ecm?
Thanks again.

Yea, the operator can do a parked regen in limp mode. The amount of time you can get buy will all depend on the exhaust stream. You can't really put times to anything with a DPF as its all determined by the operating conditions.

I'll screw up some detail of this, but there are 5 stages to the cleaning requirement. Running regen indicator - parked regen indicator - derate - laptop regren required - dead. When you get to the bottom stages the only recovery option is plugging in the laptop, cleaning it won't do it. some of these things run on timers.. its not all sensors. Really buy the point that's required, the operator has ignored notifications for hours and on most machines where auto-regen is the default they would have had to bypass the regen several times.

Maybe I'll do another video on this sometime that goes over some of this detail, and shows the regen process running with a laptop hooked up. Thats when these things clicked for me.

Topesrule · Jan 8, 2016

MessickFarmEqu said:
Yea, the operator can do a parked regen in limp mode. The amount of time you can get buy will all depend on the exhaust stream. You can't really put times to anything with a DPF as its all determined by the operating conditions.

I'll screw up some detail of this, but there are 5 stages to the cleaning requirement. Running regen indicator - parked regen indicator - derate - laptop regren required - dead. When you get to the bottom stages the only recovery option is plugging in the laptop, cleaning it won't do it. some of these things run on timers.. its not all sensors. Really buy the point that's required, the operator has ignored notifications for hours and on most machines where auto-regen is the default they would have had to bypass the regen several times.

Maybe I'll do another video on this sometime that goes over some of this detail, and shows the regen process running with a laptop hooked up. Thats when these things clicked for me.

I really appreciate you clarifying this process and answering questions on here. It's been very helpful. I'm wondering if there's a way to know when the process has gone passed the point of no return. My tractor was idling for probably 10 or 15 minutes yesterday and I got on to shut it down and the regen and increase rpm indicator lights were on. I didn't want to do a regen at that moment but I wasn't sure if the process had already started and I'd be interrupting it. I've read that once a regen starts you shouldn't interrupt it. That sort of leads to another question. If the process hasn't started and I'm safely able to press the inhibit regen button and shut the tractor down, is this any different than shutting down the tractor without hitting the inhibit button first? in both cases regen isn't happening but I'm thinking it might do something unhealthy to the computer.

AuburnAlum · Jan 8, 2016

The MF 2706e that I am considering does not have the DPF technology. It has a 'filterless' system. What are folks knowledge/opinions on this? This is a quote from a tractor.com review of the 2705e.

"The Shibaura powerplants are EPA Final Tier 4 (FT4) compliant using high-pressure common-rail (HPCR) injection, cooled exhaust gas recirculation (CEGR) and diesel oxidation catalyst (DOC) technologies. This means no diesel particulate filter (DPF) is required and there is no need for diesel exhaust fluid (DEF) additions – the lack thereof certainly bringing cost and convenience advantages..."

Snowback · Jan 8, 2016

As to the Shibauru - See my earlier posts on Mahindra's similar non DPF Tier 4 technology. (Links to a data sheet and also a video are included). I was sold on it with my recent purchase.

MessickFarmEqu · Jan 11, 2016

I'm wondering if there's a way to know when the process has gone passed the point of no return.

To get to this point, you have to ignore about a thousand things going on. Remember before you get to a laptop required stage you have to continue operating the tractor for significant duration in limp mode. The laptop business really just protects the customer from trashing the DPF beyond the point of repair. I don't believe inhibit or just turning the key would really do anything different. The only thing I'd avoid is unnecessarily shutting down once its started burning.

Snowback said:
As to the Shibauru - See my earlier posts on Mahindra's similar non DPF Tier 4 technology. (Links to a data sheet and also a video are included). I was sold on it with my recent purchase.

There is no "filterless" system. A DOC (Diesel Oxidation Catylist, regardless of what funny name its given) is 90% of what a DPF is, the major difference being that it does not burn. Rather than burning a DOC based engine has to run hotter all the time so its effectively constantly burning. I don't sell anything that has a DOC on it so I'm not 100% up on the operational characteristics, but from what I understand the low idle is set higher and some engines require a warm up time before you can operate them. I do know from Kubota land that the Kubota Engine Division has DOC engines to sell to their engine customers however the tractor division chooses not to use it. That tells me that they don't feel a DOC belongs in a tractor application. I'd also have a lot of questions on exactly what happens when a tractor lugs and volumes of soot plug the DOC quickly. Having never been though training I've not had the chance to ask an engineer those questions.

MessickFarmEqu · Jan 11, 2016

I'm wondering if there's a way to know when the process has gone passed the point of no return.

To get to this point, you have to ignore about a thousand things going on. Remember before you get to a laptop required stage you have to continue operating the tractor for significant duration in limp mode. The laptop business really just protects the customer from trashing the DPF beyond the point of repair. I don't believe inhibit or just turning the key would really do anything different. The only thing I'd avoid is unnecessarily shutting down once its started burning.

Snowback said:
As to the Shibauru - See my earlier posts on Mahindra's similar non DPF Tier 4 technology. (Links to a data sheet and also a video are included). I was sold on it with my recent purchase.

There is no "filterless" system. A DOC (Diesel Oxidation Catylist, regardless of what funny name its given) is 90% of what a DPF is, the major difference being that it does not burn. Rather than burning a DOC based engine has to run hotter all the time so its effectively constantly burning. I don't sell anything that has a DOC on it so I'm not 100% up on the operational characteristics, but from what I understand the low idle is set higher and some engines require a warm up time before you can operate them. I do know from Kubota land that the Kubota Engine Division has DOC engines to sell to their engine customers however the tractor division chooses not to use it. That tells me that they don't feel a DOC belongs in a tractor application. I'd also have a lot of questions on exactly what happens when a tractor lugs and volumes of soot plug the DOC quickly. Having never been though training I've not had the chance to ask an engineer those questions.