Toyota sales off more than GM or Ford

[Diamondpilot]

I guess another thread has morphed into another "Chris hates GM" thread.



Somehow I think there's more to this. You know the old saying:

"There's your side of the story, the other guy's side of the story, and then there's the truth."

Let's try to steer this one away from another "DP hates GM" soapbox and get 'er back on topic.

I would not say I hate GM, I currently own a Saturn and use it as my daily driver. I just was not happy with them when it came to warrenty claims and customer support. The only reason I got another GM in the Saturn was it is out of warranty and it was a good buy.

So to say I hate GM is not true. I hate the dealer I bought my first GM truck from and he is now out of business. I had problems with my second GM truck but it was covered under warranty. I just ran away from it after 9 months because I felt like there were more headaches to come with it. The only reason I was lured back was the cost difference between it and a Ford. There was $6K-8K difference at the time in 1 tons. I will gladly pay that premium now until I find something better like a Nissan or Toyota in a HD Diesel truck.

Chris

 

[Diamondpilot]

Howcome every Toyota I look at still has "made in japan" stamped on the engine block, transmission, wiring harnesses and some axles and many other parts?

I bet if i compare GM or Ford's fleet with Toyota's fleet use of domestic parts, GM & Ford come out WAY ahead!

My GMC truck was 82% US made. What's the % on your Toyota truck?

I know you are talking HD trucks but in 2007 I remember reading a article in USA Today and the most American made 1/2 ton truck, based on man hours and parts %, was the Tundra, second was the F-150, Next was the Titan, Forth was the GM, and last was the Ram.

I guess if you added Canada to the "American Classification" the GM would move up the line but if you did that you would have to add Mexico and that would move the Ram up the list.

Chris

 

[ultrarunner]

Howcome every Toyota I look at still has "made in japan" stamped on the engine block, transmission, wiring harnesses and some axles and many other parts?

I bet if i compare GM or Ford's fleet with Toyota's fleet use of domestic parts, GM & Ford come out WAY ahead!

My GMC truck was 82% US made. What's the % on your Toyota truck?

Here are the top 6 Made in America:

1. Ford F-150* Claycomo, Mo.;Dearborn, Mich.
2. Chevrolet Cobalt Lordstown, Ohio
3. Chevrolet Silverado 1500* Fort Wayne, Ind.; Pontiac, Mich.
4. Toyota Tundra Princeton, Ind.; San Antonio, Texas
5. Pontiac G6 Orion, Mich.
6. Toyota Sienna Princeton, Ind.

 

[Builder]

I wasn't actually referring to you.

Great story: I recall back on a ford diesel truck website a guy whining & complaining about a Ford dealer who wouln't fix his truck, called for arbitration, lawyers, etc. He cried more than one of my kids when they don't get something they want.

About 50 posts into the thread a guy comes along that knew him personally and let everyone know in no uncertain terms that this guy HEAVILY modified his engine with chips, nitrous, injectors, turbo, you name it and blew his engine at the sled pulls. Then he removed ALL the performance crap and demanded Ford to fix it.

It's an all too common story.

Lots of guys I read whining about the dealer puttin the screwin to him actually modified their truck, broke it, then complain like they did nothing wrong.

 

[Diamondpilot]

I wasn't actually referring to you.

Great story: I recall back on a ford diesel truck website a guy whining & complaining about a Ford dealer who wouln't fix his truck, called for arbitration, lawyers, etc. He cried more than one of my kids when they don't get something they want.

About 50 posts into the thread a guy comes along that knew him personally and let everyone know in no uncertain terms that this guy HEAVILY modified his engine with chips, nitrous, injectors, turbo, you name it and blew his engine at the sled pulls. Then he removed ALL the performance crap and demanded Ford to fix it.




It's an all too common story.

Lots of guys I read whining about the dealer puttin the screwin to him actually modified their truck, broke it, then complain like they did nothing wrong.

Well I can tell you I did not modify my 1999 S-10 Blazer 4x4 4.3L in any way. I am not sure they had any items to modify them at that time and I did not have a extra dime to spend after the payment, insurance, rent, student loans, food, lights, ect. The most I ever did with it was pull my dads 17' 3,500# boat on a single axle trailer.

The motor blew because the oil pump went out. I heard the engine making noise about 2 miles from my parents house and tried to turn around and drive back. It was already toast because I was not monitoring the oil pressure. Like I said the first clue was noise then a lose of power. At that time I noticed the oil pressure was zero. It was cold and snowing and I was 1.5 miles from the nearest anything and I was not dress to walk. Before the time of cell phones in my area. When the motor blew it poked a piston rod out the side of the block and threw a push rod through the intake and poked a hole in the hood. That is why I had a lot of problems getting it covered. They assumed it was some type of hard use or hot rodding that did this damage. By the way I never told them I tried to drive it back. All I told them was I left my parents, heard noise and felt a loss of power, scanned the gauges and noticed low oil pressure then it blew.

When the transfer case went on this truck I was on a road in town with a 35mph speed limit. It was summer and I was in 2 wheel drive coming home from the lake on a Sunday Night. Nothing in tow, although I did tow a boat that day to a friends house. I used 4 high to pull this boat out of the ramp and had no problems. On the way to my friends house, while in 2 wheel drive, the transfer case jumped out of gear but went back to 2 wheel drive and all was well. The car in front of me was turning right into Kmart and I let off the gas to slow down when the next thing I know I am looking at the pavement through my front window. I got out to examine and the transfer case was hanging by cables and the front drive shaft. The rear drive shaft had sheared off and dug into the pavement and nearly took the rear axle off. Again they blamed me for abusing the truck.

My 2004 3500 Dmax blew fuses right and left. I also had glow plug problems. I suspect the glow plug problems and fuse problems were related. I also had some injector problems that was cured with a injector swap. The injectors on the early Dmax's were a pain to work on because you had to remove the valve covers to serviced. This has been cured on the later Dmax's by redesigning the injector/valve cover interface that allows changing injectors without removing the valve covers. The final straw as the paint on the bed was peeling, especially behind the rear wheels, like the GM's of the 90's did. They gladly repainted the bed after about 6 months of ownership.

Chris

 

[PapaPerk]

Howcome every Toyota I look at still has "made in japan" stamped on the engine block, transmission, wiring harnesses and some axles and many other parts?

I bet if i compare GM or Ford's fleet with Toyota's fleet use of domestic parts, GM & Ford come out WAY ahead!

My GMC truck was 82% US made. What's the % on your Toyota truck?

Well I'm glad you asked. The Tundra is 75% US/Canada sourced. Engine and Transmission made in the good 'ol USA!

That 82% USA for your truck is most likely US/Canada. Maybe you have been looking at older Toyota trucks.

By the way GM has had a joint venture with Toyota for years making the Tacoma, Corolla, and Pontiac Vibe out in California. American made is what matters!

 

[PapaPerk]

I wasn't actually referring to you.

Great story: I recall back on a ford diesel truck website a guy whining & complaining about a Ford dealer who wouln't fix his truck, called for arbitration, lawyers, etc. He cried more than one of my kids when they don't get something they want.

About 50 posts into the thread a guy comes along that knew him personally and let everyone know in no uncertain terms that this guy HEAVILY modified his engine with chips, nitrous, injectors, turbo, you name it and blew his engine at the sled pulls. Then he removed ALL the performance crap and demanded Ford to fix it.

It's an all too common story.

Lots of guys I read whining about the dealer puttin the screwin to him actually modified their truck, broke it, then complain like they did nothing wrong.

When Ford introduced the 6.0 Diesels their name became mud in the diesel world. Terrible problems the first year. I assume they are doing better now. I hope so for the customers sake.

 

[toy]

If you can get GM to tell there side of the story there are many who would be glad to hear it. I am only one of the many. Don't be so quick to judge us unless you have the needed evidence. I have personally talked with GM on more than one occasion and on more than one level. All I got is there is nothing we can do, it is past warranty and it is now your problem. If two head gaskets in less than 150,000 km is GM normal I don't want another one, and anyone who buys one should be willing to accept the fact this is what they are willing to accept.

Just out of curiosity do you change your own oil or do you take it to a garrage to have it changed or do you go to one of the box stores or a place where they use bulk oil to refill the engine with? I used to change my own oil but I decided to try one of the big box stores to get my oil changed, that way I could do the grocery shopping or whatever shopping I needed to do. It seemed to be a real handy way to do it until my nephew had his oil changed there and he left the store and started leaving the store parking lot when he notice he had no oil pressure, he got out and checked the oil and they had forgotten to put oil in it. I started checking my oil when I got home to make sure they had put the right amount in it, and I learned that they consistently overfilled my engine, and they never greased it like they was supposed to or do any of the other things that they was supposed to do according to what I paid for. I was always told that if you overfilled the engine or any of the other components that it would blow the sills. I always made sure that I never overfilled any thing when I did my own. I now take my vehicles to a small full service gas station and I can watch them do the service as a matter of fact I get to look over the underside of the vehicle while they are doing it and if I see anything amiss I can have it fixed.

 

[toy]

My Montana is totally GM. I talked with the previous owner of the dealership, a Mr. Bruce, and he just shook his head. He couldn't understand it. It wouldn't take much research to see the many problems the Ventures/Montana vehicles had with gasket problems.

I am not familiar with the Ventures/Montana is that a van ? and is it a front wheel drive? and what size engine does it have?

 

[QRTRHRS]

Speaking about dealer servicing. I had my 92 Camry at the dealer for a recommended transmission service. I pulled the car in my garage when I got home as usual. About an hour later, I went to the garage for something and there was trannsmission oil all over the floor. I called the dealer who asked me to bring it back? I advised them that the darn well better send the rollback which they did. I had to go retrieve the car afterwards and they never once apologized for the mishap. That was my last trip to the dealer and actually, my last new vehicle having had perhaps twenty new ones up to that point. It is not just the domestic dealers that play games.

 

[toy]

Toyota trucks are actually made in IN and Texas. In Kentucky we make the Camry, Avalon, Solara, and now the Venza. Our vehicles are made in the US with primarly US made parts. Toyota believes in making vehicles where they are sold in order to sell more vehicles (by providing good paying jobs!) Makes since eh?! Wal-Mart and the big three need to figure this out! Thank you for buying a Toyota!

Does Toyota have a retirement plan for its employees, is it fully paid by the company, or is it a shared plan [they will match your contributions up to say 10% of your pay for instance] or what? Also how does their health insurance work? Some was saying that the union auto worker was making $70 an hour and after that was rebutted, and was confirmed that in actuality that they made no wheres near that and about three weeks later the same crowd that was hollering about the $70 an hour I heard one say that the union worker was making $80 an hour. You know in this economic climate the union worker didn't get a $10 an hour raise, they want to stir up strife between the workers that way they can get support to not make the loan to the big three. I looked at some of the big three vehicles lately and they had a large content of USA and Canada parts. Unless it has changed lately we have always had a good trading partnership with Canada, but some of these recently made free trade deals that have been made is far from being fair. If I trade with someone and it is apparent I get took to the cleaners with every trade, I got enough sense to not trade with them any more, too bad those that make those free trade deals don't have enough sense to do the same, would see our country collapse before they would admit they made a mistake.

 

[Tollster]

Allot of brand loyalty here, but quite frankly, I prefer to by what I believe is best, and that can change from year to year. I base what I believe to be best, by real world feedback from end users like us.
Warranty work, dependability, safety, common maintence costs, and so on.
With that said, I also take a strong look at the marketing and pricing of vehicles.
I have always been amazed at how the big three can price the trucks right along with the imports. Particularly when they have the highest paid workers, better retirement packages, better healthcare, and better perks for managers and CEO's.
So when you start to take a long look at this, one tends to wonder how they can be competitively priced. You soon realize it comes down to quality.
Now if you choose to buy American, you only support this behavior and give them no interest in making a better product.
I often wonder if the big three also prevent America from purging its foreign oil dependency due to the government bureaucracy, and after I see how easy it was to get American tax dollars I am now more sure than ever. They will be back with their hand out, this is just the tip.
No, and **** no, I don稚 think I would ever buy another American made truck! Besides, do you really think more than 50% of the parts that go into those vehicles are made here? Try mexican plastics, south american rubber, spanish computers, german braking systems and japanize lighting, almost everything is made everywhere else but here.
IMO the worst thing we could have done was bail them out, for if they did chapter 11, they surely would have saved themselves and came back much stronger and better. Now its gonna be up to you, and your children to support this good old boy club.

 

[QRTRHRS]

I agree with Tollster up to a point. And that point is what about the fallout during a reorganization?

I worked for AT&T Microelectronics>Lucent Technologies>Agere Systems which is now part of LSI after the government broke up Ma Bell. Ma Bell and Bell Labs had some great thinking people working there coming up with some fantastic ideas. Many with no practical use at the time. All well and good when money is no object. Plenty of those great minds stayed on after the breakup and continued to saddle the company with costly ideas that paid little return. Take that along with non contributing personnel from all levels and suddenly, the money runs out. Most of that plants property is now a ballfield.

If anyone ever read up on the story of big steel (Bethlehem) it is more or less the same scenario. Bloated numbers of overpaid non productive personnel. Cockimany wasteful ideas monetarily. Giving away the farm back in the sixties to placate the union.

Now along comes competition. Business as usual, full speed ahead, bloated dinosaur vehicles. No regard for what is happening. Then cry out for help? For crying out loud!

 

[Diamondpilot]

When Ford introduced the 6.0 Diesels their name became mud in the diesel world. Terrible problems the first year. I assume they are doing better now. I hope so for the customers sake.

The biggest problems with the 6.0 Ford was oil related. First off it has hydraulic injectors, smart idea because if it looses oil pressure the engine will not run. Anyway, the biggest problem was Rotella at the time foamed and gave the injectors false inputs. Dello and Delvac oils were fine along with the Motorcraft oil. I never had any problems because I always use Dello and have for years. Also on some early production motors there was nicks in the O-rings that separated the injector form the oil allowing oil into the fuel stream. There was also some problems with the placement of the EGR Valve on early motors that has been cured.

All in all I have 2 6.0's with zero engine problems or tranny problems, only a bad fuel gauge cluster in my F-350 with 75,000 miles accumulative for the two trucks.

Chris

 

[Diamondpilot]

I am not familiar with the Ventures/Montana is that a van ? and is it a front wheel drive? and what size engine does it have?

My neighbor had a Montana van with a V6 and had the same head gasket problem. It happened at around 75,000 miles, out of warranty and very expensive. They had it fixed and bought a Honda Van which they keep for 4 years with no issues. They now have a Lincoln Navigator.

Chris

 

[Builder]

Every oil change was done at the dealers. They were the ones who discovered both leaking gaskets and replaced the first. After their discovery of the second gasket and their unwillingness to do anything I took it elsewhere and was never back. The dealership kept calling about winter tuneups and other maintainance and I told them I had a problem I was waiting to have fixed before anything else was done. After several of these calls I told them if they weren't going to give help on the head gasket remove me from their phone list and stop bothering me. The calls stopped.

What was the time span between the 1st set of head gaskets puking and the 2nd set puking?

 

[Builder]

Allot of brand loyalty here, but quite frankly, I prefer to by what I believe is best, and that can change from year to year. I base what I believe to be best, by real world feedback from end users like us.
Warranty work, dependability, safety, common maintence costs, and so on.
With that said, I also take a strong look at the marketing and pricing of vehicles.
I have always been amazed at how the big three can price the trucks right along with the imports. Particularly when they have the highest paid workers, better retirement packages, better healthcare, and better perks for managers and CEO's.
So when you start to take a long look at this, one tends to wonder how they can be competitively priced. You soon realize it comes down to quality.

Maybe not. Maybe the board of directors of the Big 3 are willing to sell cars at a lower profit margin than foreign makes.

Now if you choose to buy American, you only support this behavior and give them no interest in making a better product.
I often wonder if the big three also prevent America from purging its foreign oil dependency due to the government bureaucracy, and after I see how easy it was to get American tax dollars I am now more sure than ever. They will be back with their hand out, this is just the tip.
No, and **** no, I don稚 think I would ever buy another American made truck! Besides, do you really think more than 50% of the parts that go into those vehicles are made here? Try mexican plastics, south american rubber, spanish computers, german braking systems and japanize lighting, almost everything is made everywhere else but here.
IMO the worst thing we could have done was bail them out, for if they did chapter 11, they surely would have saved themselves and came back much stronger and better. Now its gonna be up to you, and your children to support this good old boy club.

You had me agreeing until the bold part near the end. All you have to do is look at the sticker or research the vehicle. It will tell you the content. My GMC vehicle is 82% domestic. That is greater than 50%.

I do reluctantly agree that bankruptcy may be the best answer. It would allow a stronger leadership to emerge and allow them to purge all the fat & excesses. However, I think you really need to look at the viewpoint that it would take years for their customer base to willingly go back and buy from a recently bankrupt company. I would go back because i know better, but many won't.

 

[PapaPerk]

Does Toyota have a retirement plan for its employees, is it fully paid by the company, or is it a shared plan [they will match your contributions up to say 10% of your pay for instance] or what? Also how does their health insurance work? Some was saying that the union auto worker was making $70 an hour and after that was rebutted, and was confirmed that in actuality that they made no wheres near that and about three weeks later the same crowd that was hollering about the $70 an hour I heard one say that the union worker was making $80 an hour. You know in this economic climate the union worker didn't get a $10 an hour raise, they want to stir up strife between the workers that way they can get support to not make the loan to the big three. I looked at some of the big three vehicles lately and they had a large content of USA and Canada parts. Unless it has changed lately we have always had a good trading partnership with Canada, but some of these recently made free trade deals that have been made is far from being fair. If I trade with someone and it is apparent I get took to the cleaners with every trade, I got enough sense to not trade with them any more, too bad those that make those free trade deals don't have enough sense to do the same, would see our country collapse before they would admit they made a mistake.

Toyota's benefits are excellent... some of the best in the business. The idea is to have excellent benefits without being lavish. That way when the economy goes south there's some money in the bank to pay the workers and not lay them off. It's a great idea... and being put to the test. We'll see how it goes.

 

[Scooby074]

I had a 1996? Cavalier 2.2L that went thru a haeadgasket at around 100000Kms as well. I think those engines were well known to go through head gaskets. After that head gasket repair, the car went on to over 320000KM without any other major repairs. I just sent it to the crusher this summer. The engine still ran, but the body was rotten. It was pretty good car

 

[Hoosier Hay Man]

What isn't getting national attention is that GM has bankrupted several suppliers it wasn't willing to give break to when raw materials were going thru the roof and sued several others over contracts signed when prices were lower. GM buyers beat down their suppliers to the point of putting many out of business before this crisis. It hasn't been just a few either.
Then they go begging to Washington for money after they have milked every possible red cent out of their supply chain.
Ask any supplier of automotive who they would rather supply and the transplants are at the top of the list. There are many quality suppliers in this country who will no quote GM. It is no secret in the trade.

Maybe we should now call GM Goverment Motors.

Sorry for the rant, but sadly GM could be a very mean company to deal with. I can only hope they can get their act together and become a respectable company who will put people first.