WHICH ROOT RAKE/GRAPPLE ?

[fried1765]

I am considering a root rake/grapple.

It will not be used for commercial purposes, and I have absolutely zero rocks in my area.
I want a full width (66") single lid root rake/grapple.

The EA root rake/grapples, while I am sure they are wonderful, cost well in excess of what I am willing to pay.
I am considering single lid full width root rake/grapples made by Mid-State Attachments in Denton, N.C.

Their 66" "E-Series" root rake/grapple looks sorta ok to me, and weighs 575 lbs.
Their 66' "Extreme duty" root rake/grapple looks a good bit beefier, has zerk fittings, and weighs in at 785 lbs.
I like beefy stuff.

I want the open teeth bottom design (no cross welded tube) like these both have, for ripping out bittersweet vines.
My concern is about the weight differences of these two grapples.

I would definitely prefer the "Extreme duty", but am wondering if the 785 lb.weight is more than I should have for my Kubota L48 TLB.

Ideas? Opinions?

 

[daugen]

I have a Long solid bottom grapple that weighs that much and it was a problem for my Kubota L5740. But no problem for my replacement Massey.
You have the "medium" size TLB, I'd compare its lift capacity with a 5740. If similar, I'd go lighter.
Just eats up a lot of capacity with weight that far out front. Light is good. Depends upon your approach, beat up on a stump with a light weight grapple and sure
to bend something. I like heavy too...but regretted it with a smaller tractor. Now that grapple is a beast on the 4707.

 

[fried1765]

I have a Long solid bottom grapple that weighs that much and it was a problem for my Kubota L5740. But no problem for my replacement Massey.
You have the "medium" size TLB, I'd compare its lift capacity with a 5740. If similar, I'd go lighter.
Just eats up a lot of capacity with weight that far out front. Light is good. Depends upon your approach, beat up on a stump with a light weight grapple and sure
to bend something. I like heavy too...but regretted it with a smaller tractor. Now that grapple is a beast on the 4707.

Thanks!
I can't seem to find the lift capacity info for my L48 at the pins.
Anybody?
I will never use a grapple on stumps. I have forks for lifting anything really heavy like that, plus the beefy L48 hoe for digging them out.

The lighter grapple has 9" tooth spacing, while the heavier one has 12" spacing.
That is another issue I must consider.

The daxx bittersweet is killing my wild beach plum (makes delicious jelly) bushes, and my holly trees.
Tooth spacing too close will do more damage to the very growth I am trying to save.
I need to be able to reach as deeply as possible into the host bushes to snag the bittersweet vines, without significantly harming the bushes themselves.

I probably need less than 1000 lbs. effective lift capacity (at the grapple teeth), for ripping out the vines.

Someone here will likely recommend a ratchet rake.
I have one.
Never have used it.
Would not work for this particular application anyway.

 

[4570Man]

The L48 lifts 2400 to full height with a 4375 pound breakout force. The lighter the grapple the better. I really didn’t want a 900 pound grapple on my M59. I ended up getting one that’s tough enough to take it and about 650 pounds.

 

[fried1765]

The L48 lifts 2400 to full height with a 4375 pound breakout force. The lighter the grapple the better. I really didn’t want a 900 pound grapple on my M59. I ended up getting one that’s tough enough to take it and about 650 pounds.

Great!
Thank you.
That would seem to mean if I used a 785 lb. grapple that I would have a potential lift capacity of 1615 lbs.
I will have to think some more about that.
I very much like the idea of lighter, but of course, I like the idea of stronger too.
I would really like 1/2" steel on the end teeth. If the others are only 3/8" that would be OK.

There do not seem to be many manufacturers of 66" full width lid grapples that have open bottom teeth.
I would really like to have some others to compare.

 

[old and tired]

I just started to pull out bittersweet vines on my property... a couple of days ago, hand pulling a small patch to see what I'm up against. I would suggest you try hand pulling some vines. Definitely see how the bittersweet vine roots interact with your wild beach plum and holly trees.

So the vines on my property were pretty easy to pull up, not hard once you cut the top section off. (smaller than 1.5") The roots held together pretty good to pull up a good mat of the vine roots. Reddish in color so you can tell them from other roots. Reason why I bring this up, the whole top layer of soil was just this root. I would try my ratchet rake but have to take the tooth bar off, so will try with only the tooth bar first... It was nice to find that my bittersweet vines were not deeply rooted.

I've prepared another area (cutting the top of the vines off) and will stick a couple of the tooth bar's teeth under and curl back. Might still need to "Grab" them but seriously don't think my grapple would be able to latch on to any of them.

I would not count out your ratchet rake... although, it seems like you really want a grapple. Grapples are great for picking up big things but grabbing on to vines are not their strong suit. My 2 cents...

 

[daugen]

Great!
Thank you.
That would seem to mean if I used a 785 lb. grapple that I would have a potential lift capacity of 1615 lbs.
I will have to think some more about that.
I very much like the idea of lighter, but of course, I like the idea of stronger too.
I would really like 1/2" steel on the end teeth. If the others are only 3/8" that would be OK.

There do not seem to be many manufacturers of 66" full width lid grapples that have open bottom teeth.
I would really like to have some others to compare.

It's not just the net numbers. You get a lot of weight out front and use the controls anything but smoothly and you will feel the tractor rock.
Particularly if you have radial tires. I think you have stiff sidewall R4's but it's always going to be a see saw...
An extra hundred pounds all the way out front can usually be felt.

If I had to do it again, and I solved my issues by going to a tractor almost twice as heavy,
I'd have kept the weight down around 500-600. If you want to pick up big tree trunks though, particularly if you want to yank on them, I'd do it carefully with
a lighter grapple. Just makes sense. Your TLB has the advantage of a lot of weight on the back end, so in your case it might be more of just a numbers game, but
you sure won't be twinkletoes with that thing all loaded up... besides you never want to run at rated max. Fine for absolutely flat land.
But in most cases you don't get that, and inclination might reduce your comfort level rapidly. I've scared myself enough times to put an inclinometer in my larger tractor's cab. And to get on a slope with a load on, for safety's sake, even a low CG TLB has limits.

I don't think you will be dissatisfied with a lighter weight grapple if you leave the stumps alone.

 

[daugen]

I'm not an engineer for sure but there are different grades of steel. Some are simply stronger. Is there a comparative spec available we
can reference? Does anyone tell you what they use is more the question likely.
If they can make a 3/8 thick grapple be as strong as a standard 1/2, now that's more like it.
Low weight, high strength. Assuming equivalent build structure, one mfg could add extra supports, which
is always good assuming they've actually used an engineer and aren't guessing...
Or as is often the case, just blatantly copied the market leader without a concern over patent infringement.

I drove across the State just to buy from EA. I have pics of it from years ago, pretty sure they have expanded since then. And I think they get better
every year. But maybe someone else got better a long time ago and has improved into a superior product.
Now we're talking...and no more expensive than a current premium grapple, say from Land Pride, but stronger and lighter.
Just hoping we have product improvement as metallurgy improves. And more truth in advertising as to steel strength.
I always wondered what forged really meant, because they never go beyond that, though you know forged is usually good.
But how forged, to what spec? And who makes sure they are honest?

I need to be able to reach as deeply as possible into the host bushes to snag the bittersweet vines, without significantly harming the bushes themselves. That's an interesting spec. Do you use the bittersweet for xmas decorations?

 

[fried1765]

I'm not an engineer for sure but there are different grades of steel. Some are simply stronger. Is there a comparative spec available we
can reference? Does anyone tell you what they use is more the question likely.
If they can make a 3/8 thick grapple be as strong as a standard 1/2, now that's more like it.
Low weight, high strength. Assuming equivalent build structure, one mfg could add extra supports, which
is always good assuming they've actually used an engineer and aren't guessing...
Or as is often the case, just blatantly copied the market leader without a concern over patent infringement.

I drove across the State just to buy from EA. I have pics of it from years ago, pretty sure they have expanded since then. And I think they get better
every year. But maybe someone else got better a long time ago and has improved into a superior product.
Now we're talking...and no more expensive than a current premium grapple, say from Land Pride, but stronger and lighter.
Just hoping we have product improvement as metallurgy improves. And more truth in advertising as to steel strength.
I always wondered what forged really meant, because they never go beyond that, though you know forged is usually good.
But how forged, to what spec? And who makes sure they are honest?

I need to be able to reach as deeply as possible into the host bushes to snag the bittersweet vines, without significantly harming the bushes themselves. That's an interesting spec. Do you use the bittersweet for xmas decorations?

I absolutely HATE bittersweet!
It is the equivalent of kudzu or worse!

Bittersweet is somewhat decorative, but as you note from my post it is killing my holly.
My dad raised 37 different varieties of holly on our 12 acres, mostly English varieties.
I am trying to keep at least some of those holly trees alive.
English holly is one he11 of a lot more beautiful than the daxx bittersweet that is killing it!

My mother loved bittersweet for Xmas decorating, but that was 70 years ago, when bittersweet was difficult to find, and before my dad began raising English holly.

I am an engineer of old, and do remember a bit of metallurgy from my strength of materials classes so many years ago.
That said: For my very limited use, I am not quite willing to spring for a high tech steel, high cost, grapple.

I have two EA attachments, and they are absolutely great.
EA grapples however, are just too rich for my blood, and my very limited use.

 

[daugen]

on our farm in PA my father sought out the few bits of bittersweet to make an arrangement of red berries. Our problem was not enough, not too much.
Reminds me of Mistletoe. I never knew it was an invasive, damaging plant. I have a tree outside my house with at least ten big blotches of always green mistletoe and they look like in time they would kill the tree. Parasitic plants...

 

[Notforhire]

I've owned both 66" root grapples from Mid State.
Because of the weight/ money consideration, the first one I bought was the "E" model. I never dreamed that I would use it so often.
The weak point in the "E" model is the pivot point on the grapple. After a short time the hole egged out. After increasing the pivot pins to one inch and seeing no improvement, I decided to either redesign the pivot, or replace the grapple.
My tractor, at the time, was a JD 5055e which had plenty of lift capacity. I made my decision and sold the "E" model and bought the heavy duty 66". I paid $1800 at the Denton facility.

I've been very happy with this unit. Now my tractor is smaller (L47). I've not used the grapple on it yet, but I've mounted and operated it. I did notice the weight more on the Kubota than I did on the Deere.
I think the weight of the "E" series would be better suited to my Kubota. (Note that I don't have a backhoe.)
The heavy duty model is a MUCH better, although heavier unit.
I think it'll work out fine and I have no intention of replacing it with a lighter model.

If you can redesign the pivot of the "E" model, you would have a lot of bang for your buck. I don't think it would be difficult.
The photo is of a spade bucket/grapple I also bought from them. It works great.

 

[fried1765]

I've owned both 66" root grapples from Mid State.
Because of the weight/ money consideration, the first one I bought was the "E" model. I never dreamed that I would use it so often.
The weak point in the "E" model is the pivot point on the grapple. After a short time the hole egged out. After increasing the pivot pins to one inch and seeing no improvement, I decided to either redesign the pivot, or replace the grapple.
My tractor, at the time, was a JD 5055e which had plenty of lift capacity. I made my decision and sold the "E" model and bought the heavy duty 66". I paid $1800 at the Denton facility.

I've been very happy with this unit. Now my tractor is smaller (L47). I've not used the grapple on it yet, but I've mounted and operated it. I did notice the weight more on the Kubota than I did on the Deere.
I think the weight of the "E" series would be better suited to my Kubota. (Note that I don't have a backhoe.)
The heavy duty model is a MUCH better, although heavier unit.
I think it'll work out fine and I have no intention of replacing it with a lighter model.

If you can redesign the pivot of the "E" model, you would have a lot of bang for your buck. I don't think it would be difficult.
The photo is of a spade bucket/grapple I also bought from them. It works great.

Thank you! Thank you!
You have provided the exact information/comparison I was hoping for.

I had already considered that if I bought the "E" model I would bore some larger holes, and use replaceable bronze bushings, and/or maybe add zerk fittings.
From your information, and since I do have the backhoe counterweight, it does seem that the "extreme" model would work well for me.

I do have a concern about both models however.
I need to pull/rip out bittersweet vines by pulling it through the holly branches.
I am thinking that the 9" teeth may be too closely spaced, and will do more damage to the holly.

I have now discovered a 66" (actually 64") model that has 11" tooth spacing from Skidsteer Depot, in Brownsboro, AL.
I would add replaceable bronze bushings to this model also (I am 79 years old. Am I going to wear this thing out?)
Only $1300 delivered, and it weighs 575 lbs.
I know this is only an inexpensive attachment, but while vegetating here in FL. for the Winter, and lacking anything better to do, I just may fly up to AL. to have a look at it.

 

[Notforhire]

I checked out Skidsteer Depot's site. If we're looking at the same unit, it appears (at least to me) that it's either made by Mid State or from the same pattern. MS builds their equipment in Denton and sells to other companies for resale.
The SD unit has the same pivot design issue as MS has.
66" Root Rake Clam Grapple with Teeth - Skid Steer Attachment Depot

 

[fried1765]

I checked out Skidsteer Depot's site. If we're looking at the same unit, it appears (at least to me) that it's either made by Mid State or from the same pattern. MS builds their equipment in Denton and sells to other companies for resale.
The SD unit has the same pivot design issue as MS has.
66" Root Rake Clam Grapple with Teeth - Skid Steer Attachment Depot

Yup...That is the one!
I suspect you are 100% correct about MS building it.!

Before ordering I will ask MS about ordering that exact design direct from them.
Perhaps I could also pay MS to use bronze bushings, or pivot bolts with zerks.

I have also thought that I might just tack weld each pivot bolt, and put a zerk in each cylinder end fitting.

 

[Notforhire]

Doesn't hurt to ask.
The SD unit looks just like the standard economy model from MS.

I bought some bushings off eBay that are 1.5 x 3" with a 1" hole. My intention was to cut the bushing in half and weld them on the outside of the pivot. To keep the pin from rotating in the center, I was going to drill the grapple arm and either install a set screw or roll pin into the 1" pivot pin. Grease fitting could easily be installed in the bushings.

 

[fried1765]

View attachment 630370

Doesn't hurt to ask.
The SD unit looks just like the standard economy model from MS.

I bought some bushings off eBay that are 1.5 x 3" with a 1" hole. My intention was to cut the bushing in half and weld them on the outside of the pivot. To keep the pin from rotating in the center, I was going to drill the grapple arm and either install a set screw or roll pin into the 1" pivot pin. Grease fitting could easily be installed in the bushings.

Seems like a good plan.
I might try that, though I think just tack welding the pins, and putting a zerk in each of the 4 cylinder end fittings would be easier.
Too soon for me to order a grapple now anyway, as I am in Florida for the Winter.

 

[Notforhire]

I don't think that the cylinder ends are a problem, it's where the grapple arm pivots that it eggs out quickly. If I remember correctly the center (grapple) plate is 3/8" sandwiched between two 3/8 plates, so there isn't much bearing surface there. I think the factory pivot was just a 5/8 full thread bolt.

We had a bad ice storm here and needless to say, I moved tons of branches and trees before I replaced the bolts with 1" pins.
After that I lent it to a friend that had a 75HP NH and he moved tons of downed trees.

Depending on your use, it may be fine for years, as is.
SD has some good photos, so you can really study how it's built, then you'll be ready for a decision in the spring.

Good luck, Bill

 

[fried1765]

I don't think that the cylinder ends are a problem, it's where the grapple arm pivots that it eggs out quickly. If I remember correctly the center (grapple) plate is 3/8" sandwiched between two 3/8 plates, so there isn't much bearing surface there. I think the factory pivot was just a 5/8 full thread bolt.

We had a bad ice storm here and needless to say, I moved tons of branches and trees before I replaced the bolts with 1" pins.
After that I lent it to a friend that had a 75HP NH and he moved tons of downed trees.

Depending on your use, it may be fine for years, as is.
SD has some good photos, so you can really study how it's built, then you'll be ready for a decision in the spring.

Good luck, Bill

"it may be fine for years"

That begs the question......
How many "years" is a 79 year old likely to have left anyway?

I am thinking I will try to order that SD model directly from MS in the Spring, as soon as I get back up North.
I will ask MS if they can customize it a bit for me.

I normally go North in late April, but I plan to go a bit earlier this year to tend my overwintering bees.

 

[kenmac]

Buy a good grapple and you only have to buy it once with no regrets
Wicked beats those cheap grapples every time

 

[kenmac]

rocks ? No problem for the wicked to dig up

Wicked !! There's No substitute for quality ! Guaranteed..... And, made right here in the USA !