Why is green paint so expensive?

[gemini5362]

Go to their search engine, type in Ford, you get 304 results, type in General Motors and you get 364. I don't think either one is better than the other. If you were referring to my comments ealier I was only suggesting that a person should buy the product of the company they work for. And if they don't, then when that person's plant is closed down he has nothing to say.

I am not one to get into any brand wars especially on trucks, I own over 40 of them and not one of them is any better than the other as far as reliability.


murph

based on your post above I assumed you were talking about duramax engines the url I listed posted some pretty serious ford problems. Once again I have nothing against fords. I have owned fords and have enjoyed them I like my duramax but the reason I purchased it in the first place was that I got lucky and got a good deal on the price it was between it and a ford and the chevrolet was cheaper nothing more than that. The link that I posted talks about some pretty severe powerstroke problems which with my luck I would have probably gotten one of the problem engines. I was pointing out that there was some problems with duramax engines but i believe that particular problem has been corrected. Like I said already my original post about the trucks was a joke I noticed several people got it and posted what I considered was a humorous reply. If i have offended you I apologize.

 

[gemini5362]

I think this comment is where you get most everyone to roll their eyes and think "oh, another one of these guys". You can read all over this board where a few dozen guys have justified their purchase of a lesser known brand by claiming that they saved $4000, $6000 etc. Yours seems to be one of the biggest claims. Virtually every "huge" savings has panned out to not exactly be the truth when closely examined. More than not, it's the poster parroting what the salesperson told them to get them to buy the brand that the prospective customer has never heard of.

As I've stated here several times before, I've likely bought close to 20 tractors over the years, with most of them being new. Early this last year I took one of these posters for their word and actually went to visit a lesser known brand dealer with a very serious intention of buying if indeed the quality was anything close to what was reported here, especially if it was going to be $4000 less than one of the "big three" brands I was considering. First off, the tractor quality was by no means an equal to the name brand tractor I'd just driven that same day. Secondly, and really telling, the lesser known brand of tractor actually ended up with a price quote that was higher than the name brand tractor when I got down to the real nuts and bolts of the deal.

There are all sorts of brands for all sorts of people. However, unless you are considering the purchase of a crate Jinma that you are going to put together yourself, I'm simply not even remotely buying the "$8000" difference in price. I don't doubt that your dealer you bought from told you that you'd save that much, but I've spent way too many hours on tractor lots negotiating for tractors to believe that there is even half that much of a difference between a John Deere tractor and a comparable Montana tractor.

I own tractors from three different manufacturers right now. They are different and each has their strong points. However, there is no where close to even half of what you quoted in price difference between similar models from the companies. I'm only telling you this because that is the statement that you've made that have people questioning your credibility on prices and tractor knowledge. Anyway, as I said earlier and I mean it, I hope that the Mitsubishi diesels are better than their gas engines. I can't see them as possibly being as unreliable. Well, if the actual price is $8000 less than a name brand tractor...

Dargo this is a pretty thinly veiled post calling me a liar If you want to talk about personal attacks then this was a very good start at it. If the owners of this forum feel that I have violated their terms of service they have every right to banish me from this forum. I enjoy the threads that I post to and have learned some good information from them. As far as it being me against the world I dont believe that to be the case. Although your post about that could be construed as an attack as actually could several of your posts where you quote what I have said and then make comments that are derogatory. Now I am going to follow a policy that I hope you will consider. I am not going to respond to any more of your posts and agree that we disagree on several things. You have the freedom to either do the same or continue to post whatever you feel like. Have a Merry Christmas and I hope you have a good 2007

 

[gemini5362]

I don't think you understand what I was saying to you. Your the one that brought up Ford as being no good based on the link you pasted. I disagree with you, I did not mention Duramax in my comment at all. All I am saying to you is one is not better than the other. I know I own over 40 trucks.

You also touted the Allison transmission because it was the transmission used in the larger trucks. I am not knocking Allison transmission but it is not the same as the one is the larger trucks.

But my big point that yout totally missed was a person working for a certain manufacture should be buying products from the company they work for.

murph

OK let me say this once again I am aware that my silverado does not have the same duramax in large trucks. I do believe in my opinion that people who make those transmissions have a lot of experience in designing transmissions that can hold up to heavy useage. I would certainly hope that some of hthat engineering experience would make its way down to the lighter duty unit used in the 2500 HD silverado

I am confused about what your saying about me missing your point about someone working for a certain manufacturer buying the products from the company they work for. I understood what you were trying to say just not sure how that comment related to me. I buy the products that my company produces on a regular basis. I am not sure why you thought that i missed your point.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Harley Davidson = most motocycles sold in USA over 1Kcc, more yrs than not..... The only modern motorcycles to appreciate in value.
Ford F150 = most pickup trucks sold in USA, just about every yr for over 50 yrs....
Kubota = most SCUTS and CUTS sold in USA just about every yr they've been doing business in the USA.

One may argue that the above listed may not be the best in their class but then again, the numbers would seem to make an argument otherwise

McDonalds sells more hamburgers than any other fast food chain on this planet. Does that mean (according to the above logic) that they have the best food available to the public? Not in "over 99 billion" lifetimes......

Harley sells more big bikes because of marketing and sales fads. They sell a "good" product, but not a "hands down" best in the business.

Ford sells more pick-ups because of good marketing and an old outdated reputation. (and look at sales numbers over the last 10 years. Fords grip is slipping as the reputation declines)

Kubota sells plenty of tractors with the help of a great marketing plan.

Successful marketing and well organized business managment make for a thriving business. Quality products put you on the map. A strong business plan KEEPS you there, often after the quality product is less than it once was.

Each may OR MAY NOT be the best in their respective fields, but sales numbers don't automatically indicate their being "superior" to all other brands.

 

[riptides]

Each may OR MAY NOT be the best in their respective fields, but sales numbers don't automatically indicate their being "superior" to all other brands.

very wise words.

Pet Rocks come to mind. Thinking of sales numbers and marketing. The product quality was rather poor, IMHO.

-Mike Z.

 

[Volfandt]

McDonalds sells more hamburgers than any other fast food chain on this planet. Does that mean (according to the above logic) that they have the best food available to the public? Not in "over 99 billion" lifetimes......

To properly follow the logic you should have compared McD's hamburgers to hamburgers of another vendor like Wendys or Burger King etc., not the all encompassing classification of food. As I would then argue that a porterhouse steak is much better than a hamburger from any vender
Besides, I personally don't eat McD's hamburgers but the shear numbers of units sold make them the most popular....

I always get a kick out of people knocking HD. It is THE American success story. They knock the the technology as if to say old technology is bad, while not realizing that the majority of our electric service is produced and distributed in the same manner as it was when it was originally devised. Same for all our utilities....
The technology HD uses is so imitated now that the "V" engine configuration is now more common than the in-line in large displacement MC's. HD's competitors not only copy the styling but also the basic engine design and even the exhaust sound. There are at least 7 different manufacturers that produce an HD clone and even with all their numbers added together they still don't equal the amount of units produced and sold by HD.
Is HD the best large displacement motorcycle made? Those on Goldwings and the other clones would certainly argue that their particular MC is superior BUT, the numbers wouldn't back them up
Large sales numbers isn't just a product of a good marketing campaign, there HAS to be an outstanding engineering and manufacturing infrastructure inplace to design, produce and service the product in such large volumes.

Each may OR MAY NOT be the best in their respective fields, but sales numbers don't automatically indicate their being "superior" to all other brands.

In 1977 I purchased a brand new AMF HD FXE Super Glide. HD was barely outselling the imports at the time. I owned it for over 18 mostly trouble free yrs and I sold it for over double what I gave for it. I doubt the competing imported big bikes of the same yr can claim the same.....
The HD may not have been the best MC at the time, but in the long haul it was

 

[Farmwithjunk]

To properly follow the logic you should have compared McD's hamburgers to hamburgers of another vendor like Wendys or Burger King etc., not the all encompassing classification of food. As I would then argue that a porterhouse steak is much better than a hamburger from any vender
Besides, I personally don't eat McD's hamburgers but the shear numbers of units sold make them the most popular....

I always get a kick out of people knocking HD. It is THE American success story. They knock the the technology as if to say old technology is bad, while not realizing that the majority of our electric service is produced and distributed in the same manner as it was when it was originally devised. Same for all our utilities....
The technology HD uses is so imitated now that the "V" engine configuration is now more common than the in-line in large displacement MC's. HD's competitors not only copy the styling but also the basic engine design and even the exhaust sound. There are at least 7 different manufacturers that produce an HD clone and even with all their numbers added together they still don't equal the amount of units produced and sold by HD.
Is HD the best large displacement motorcycle made? Those on Goldwings and the other clones would certainly argue that their particular MC is superior BUT, the numbers wouldn't back them up
Large sales numbers isn't just a product of a good marketing campaign, there HAS to be an outstanding engineering and manufacturing infrastructure inplace to design, produce and service the product in such large volumes.


In 1977 I purchased a brand new AMF HD FXE Super Glide. HD was barely outselling the imports at the time. I owned it for over 18 mostly trouble free yrs and I sold it for over double what I gave for it. I doubt the competing imported big bikes of the same yr can claim the same.....
The HD may not have been the best MC at the time, but in the long haul it was

Just for the sake of argument, lets go with YOUR take on hamburgers. McDonalds ISN'T the best hamburger on earth. It's just the BEST SELLER. (Marketing and the first BIG name in the business) Sales numbers are of no special significance when determining who's "the best". They only tell the tale of who SOLD THE MOST.

You are the FIRST and ONLY person I've ever heard claim a "bowling ball bike" (AMF/HARLEY) was worth the cost of the de-greaser it took to clean the garage floor after it leaked all the oil out. AMF Harleys just about sunk Harley. At the point where AMF sold the Harley name, stock was worth next to nothing. They had no other option but to jump out of the sinking boat.

And sales numbers don't take into account the "fad" purchasers who make up more than half of Harley's sales. Consider nearly 1/2 of those who purchase a new Harley sell it with-in the first year. Would that indicate that half of Harleys aren't worth owning? Possibly Harley buyers aren't as "savvy" as they would like to believe? Or could it indicate that Harley sales numbers are a great misconception. Your bent on making claims based on sales numbers alone. What about the numbers that DISPROVE your claims? Want to stick with them too? If YOU PERSONALLY like your Harley's , that they're the best FOR YOU. That alone doesn't give them claim to "best bike on the road", just the most popular big V-twin in a limited market.

I have some background with Harley and motorcycles in general. I raced bikes for 16 years. During those years, I was also the referree at 55 AMA Grand National Flat Track events throughout the midwest. (1/2 mile and mile flat track) I spent many an hour with reps from Harley, lobbying their "cause" for rulings eliminating their competition. (Remember Bubba Shobert? Multi-time AMA National Flat Track Champion on a HONDA in the mid to late 80's) Harley cried like a cat with it's tail caught in the car door until AMA ruled Honda had to carry 20 lbs more weight, a smaller carbs, and a smaller back tire. Honda STILL ran 'em off the track. More rules followed. Honda proved their point and took their MILLIONS in sponsorship money elsewhere, lowering the level of competition until Harley was back in the hunt. Harley is far more "image" and "hype" than it is substance and quality, especially in the performance realm. BTDT, got all sorts of tee shirts.

Sales numbers DON'T have a carved in stone reflection on who's "best". They CAN be an indicator, but not so that they tell the entire story.

 

[patrick_g]

I don't care what bad things anyone says about HD, a Honda don't go potato, potato, potato and HD will sue anyone who markets a bike that does. Now that is the height of insanity, believing the exhaust sound is proprietary and can be OWNED.

Right up there with the Apple-Microsoft suit over look and feel. Apple "steals" their look and feel from Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center) while on a tour there and then sues Microsoft for infringement because Microsoft does something similar.

I enjoyed the comments comparing HD to JD. The customer base may have certain similarities in some instances but JD is probably not so far over into mythology.

Pat

 

[Volfandt]

You are the FIRST and ONLY person I've ever heard claim a "bowling ball bike" (AMF/HARLEY) was worth the cost of the de-greaser it took to clean the garage floor after it leaked all the oil out. AMF Harleys just about sunk Harley. At the point where AMF sold the Harley name, stock was worth next to nothing. They had no other option but to jump out of the sinking boat.

Actually, AMF SAVED HD.... If AMF hadn't bought out HD, HD would have gone the way of Indian, Excellcier etc.
AMF also introduced many enhansements to the Shovelhead engine, the cone/alternator bottom end to name a major upgrade. The Kehin carb was another.
I also posted that my HD was an AMF as it is incorrectly labeled as a cheaper model but all the while it bought well over a 200% appreciation when sold over the original purchase price! The new model HD's produced by the now engineer owned (former & current) are considered much more valuable.
You see, even the so called lesser valued HD's appreciated in value more than it's competition
Also, the rear chain oiler was one of the major reasons an HD marked it's spot
I've yet to see a Honda, Kawasaki etc hold their value anywhere near ANY model of the large HD's (Sportsters excluded).

I've also owned and operated several Honda's (450 & a 750) and I don't want to knock Honda as I enjoyed them. They were very good machines. But, since they didn't hold their value, they can't be considered better than my ole AMF HD

Sales are just one of the 3 major determinators of what is a great product. Service, Quality and Price constitutes the mythical triangle of what we as consumers look for in a product. Then theres several sub categories under each to define them. To me resale value helps to define price. We all have differing opinions on which of the 3 is the most important. Most place price as 1st while I do not.
The three brand examples I used may not be the best in everybodies opinion but they are in mine as they meet my criteria of the 3 determinators. Other manufacturers may excell in one area but not all 3 to me.
And of course others pick another brand as they feel it wins in their triangle. And thats fine with me....

Your bent on making claims based on sales numbers alone. What about the numbers that DISPROVE your claims? Want to stick with them too?

Sales numbers are just one barometer, what other numbers are you saying? Resale value numbers? HD wins.
Most popular numbers? again HD wins. Numbers of owners of over1k cc MC's? HD!

I don't have to put down Chevy or Dodge to justify my F150, nor JD or CNH to justify my Kubota nor Honda or Kawasaki to justify my purchase of an HD as I've owned the others and liked them.
When others do I like to make sure all sides are covered in a debate

 

[patrick_g]

No matter what the product, its function, or price. there are always some folks whining about them all. Averages and the odds (statistics) tell a less biased tale. Cummins... OH pretty please, get a clue the engine is spelled C_U _M _M _I_N_S (NO "G") There is a Bob Cummings we could discuss.

Anyway, in aggregate there is no major problem with Cummins B series engines (AKA SUPER Bee, i.e. the 6.9 liter straight 6) with the possible exception that they are only available stock in a pickup from a recognized manufacturer in a Dodge. The engine is greatbut the auto tranny is a bit of a poor match as well as too weak and the rest of the driveline is too weak. The truck less the enngine isn't so bad. There isn't really 50 cents worth of difference between Ford, Chevy, and Dodge pickups when you exclude the engine, tranny, and rest of the driveline. You get fanatics with religious zeal touting each of the brands like every pro sports team has camp followers.

In my case I bought a Cummins engine and it came wrapped up in a Dodge 1 ton 4x4 which is acceptable but not particularly a lot better or worse than Chevy or Ford. It was my first pickup that was not a Ford but I just preferred the Cummins way over the Power Joke.

Boy I wish I had the little Allison tranny instead of the POS by Dodge. Now there would be a good collection of moving parts: Cummins B 6.9 to an Allison tranny in a Ford or Dodge chassis (sorry Chevy lovers but I have a slight Bias in favor of Ford and Dodge for the cab and chassis. The Duramax is a fine engine and I hold it above the power joke but not up there with the Cummins)

The B 6.9 Cummins is used in work boats and fishing boats where they are asked to deliver 400+ HP for hours and hours and sometimes days on end without throttling back. They do use different pump, injectors, manifolds, cam, and turbo than the ones in Dodges but then it is a narrower range that is required in boats so you can better optimize for your situation. Although some boats run variable pitch props there isn't any shifting up through the gears as automotive types think of it in maring applications.

Pat