Why is green paint so expensive?

[aesanders]

I have heard of mitsubishi and until this thread I had not heard of yanmar.

Who hasn't heard of Mitsubishi. Just walk into best buy and you will see a wall full of their T.V.'s. Or see adds on the T.V. for a Mitsubishi car. It's a name that most if not all Americans recognize. Doesn't mean they build better engines than Yanmar though, which is a name only a small precentage of Americans know.

This is true with most tractor companies though. I bet if you ask most any person in the local mall with no ag background to name as many tractors brands as they possibly could they could only name maybe 1 or two with John Deere being one of those. I doubt hardly anyone would be able to name Montana

 

[d413ai]

Brand recognition due to marketing is at play here. It has nothing to do with reliabilty or quality. JD sources many of thier tractors and compnents from overseas. However, this drives a wide variation in product line quality which can be seen in the workmanship and materials being used. I have seen JD products which were made in Japan and India and was disappointed with the egronomics of the japan models and poor materials and workmanship for the India product. The JD units built in the states are more robust, refined and better built. Bottom line, I don't think you can rely on brand name alone accross the board to decide which brand is better. You really need to take a look at the components, materials and workmanship to determine if the tractor is a good solid value.

 

[gemini5362]

Who hasn't heard of Mitsubishi. Just walk into best buy and you will see a wall full of their T.V.'s. Or see adds on the T.V. for a Mitsubishi car. It's a name that most if not all Americans recognize. Doesn't mean they build better engines than Yanmar though, which is a name only a small precentage of Americans know.

This is true with most tractor companies though. I bet if you ask most any person in the local mall with no ag background to name as many tractors brands as they possibly could they could only name maybe 1 or two with John Deere being one of those. I doubt hardly anyone would be able to name Montana

I have no arguement with what you say. ALL i have said is that I personally have never heard of Yanmar. I never said anything detrimental about them only that I have never heard of them. I have heard of mitsubishi they have been around a long time. I have owned a couple of chrysler products with Mitsubishi engines in them. One a 4 cylinder and 1 a v6 they were both very good cars and ran well for a long time. Montana is a new brand and I am sure that is why it is cheaper. Let me see if I can say this correctly and at least cut down on the flames for my comment. I think JD makes a very good tractor. I do not farm, I have 25 acres and some rental houses. If my montana breaks down and it takes a while to get it fixed will not be a big deal. To be honest it is a nice expensive toy for me. I love it and I use it for way more than I realized I would. In my useage and strictly my own useage the JD was not the best option. Maybe it would last longer and be more dependable etc etc. For my useage it was not worth the extra $8000.00 they wanted for an equitable John Deere. I am not sure how many people that need light duty tractors will want to pay the extra. If I had a farm and my tractor was a very large part of my income then I might consider a proven brand name worth the extra money. If you read the posts in the montana section montana is wanting to be a big player so they are doing warranty work that I have not seen other people do. There is a post where a person admitted that they left out an oil plug and burned up their motor. The person was complaining because it was taking too long in their opinion to get the replacement parts he needed to fix what he had destroyed ( basically rods, bearings, piston, rings, etc ) Someone told Montana about the post and they shipped him a new engine and only charged him for the damaged parts he had ordered. But just because Montana is not a proven brand name does not mean they are not a well built reliable tractor it just means they have not been around long enough to make a name for reliability. I would be the first to admit that JD has been around a long time and have a name for reliability

 

[Dargo]

For my useage it was not worth the extra $8000.00 they wanted for an equitable John Deere.

I think this comment is where you get most everyone to roll their eyes and think "oh, another one of these guys". You can read all over this board where a few dozen guys have justified their purchase of a lesser known brand by claiming that they saved $4000, $6000 etc. Yours seems to be one of the biggest claims. Virtually every "huge" savings has panned out to not exactly be the truth when closely examined. More than not, it's the poster parroting what the salesperson told them to get them to buy the brand that the prospective customer has never heard of.

As I've stated here several times before, I've likely bought close to 20 tractors over the years, with most of them being new. Early this last year I took one of these posters for their word and actually went to visit a lesser known brand dealer with a very serious intention of buying if indeed the quality was anything close to what was reported here, especially if it was going to be $4000 less than one of the "big three" brands I was considering. First off, the tractor quality was by no means an equal to the name brand tractor I'd just driven that same day. Secondly, and really telling, the lesser known brand of tractor actually ended up with a price quote that was higher than the name brand tractor when I got down to the real nuts and bolts of the deal.

There are all sorts of brands for all sorts of people. However, unless you are considering the purchase of a crate Jinma that you are going to put together yourself, I'm simply not even remotely buying the "$8000" difference in price. I don't doubt that your dealer you bought from told you that you'd save that much, but I've spent way too many hours on tractor lots negotiating for tractors to believe that there is even half that much of a difference between a John Deere tractor and a comparable Montana tractor.

I own tractors from three different manufacturers right now. They are different and each has their strong points. However, there is no where close to even half of what you quoted in price difference between similar models from the companies. I'm only telling you this because that is the statement that you've made that have people questioning your credibility on prices and tractor knowledge. Anyway, as I said earlier and I mean it, I hope that the Mitsubishi diesels are better than their gas engines. I can't see them as possibly being as unreliable. Well, if the actual price is $8000 less than a name brand tractor...

 

[gemini5362]

Well that was pretty blunt. Unfortunatly I dont have the emails anymore to show the price difference. I am not parroting any sales people. I will be happy to give you the facts so you can make up your own mind without having to resort to calling me a liar.

I started looking at a montana with a dealer that lived near me. He took a large shipment of Montanas in early 2006 I looked at one of the new 2006 4940C that he had on his lot. I did some research on the brand and looked at prices. In the spring the Tulsa, Oklahoma exhibition hall has a home and garden show. I am not sure how many exhibits are there but it is a bunch. There was a dealer rep there from New Holland, two from Montana, two from kubota and I believe either two or three from John Deere. I spent the day at the show and talked to all of the reps. I made sure i was getting as close as possible to horsepower ratings, all were 4 wheel drive, synchro shift with a cab. etc etc. The john deere rep talked to my quite a while. I told him the price difference and he said to do anything about that he would have to talk to his regional manager and see what he could do. he sent me an email on monday with a price of about 31,800 or 900 somewhere in that range.
to be honest I dont remember what tractor we talked about but it would have been somewhere in the 49 horse range. I acually think it was around 41 or so but I dont remember. When my dealer bought his large shipment I think it was more of a lets get people buying these price. There was a new price list out about the time that I bought mine and the montana people I talked with at the tulsa home show were suprised that he was still selling at the old price list. I went back tuesday after I got the email from John Deere and bought the 4940C with FEL ( all the ones I priced had an FEL ) for 23,500 if you dont believe that price is realistic then go on the montana discussion page and ask the two or three dealers that are there.

I try to watch when I buy stuff. The weekend that GM announced they had lost a ton of revenue and their stock took a swan dive off of a very huge cliff I bought a new 2500 HD duramax the duramax listed for 48,000 + a bit
i paid 39,000 plus got 3. something interest. When the 2006 porsches came out I bought my 2005 for 6000.00 below the discounted price. Now you can believe me or not it really is not a concern. But I know what I paid for my stuff and what I was offered. YOU however do not live where I do or shop where I do and do not have any clue what price I was offered or paid. I would suggest before you start suggesting people are lieing you maybe ask them to clarify how they got that good a price.

 

[therebarely]

Well here goes- I will preface this by saying that I have had several small John Deeres (all made by Yanmar) and 2 Ford's. All have been economical, reliable, and cost virtually nothing to own. All were sold within a few hundred dollars of what I paid for them. I am currently in the move up mode, and am looking at Kubota and John Deere in the 60 h.p. range, with cab and loader. I want to tell you, there is a HUGE difference in price. Not $8,000.00, but really close. There is no doubt that the Deere is better, if for no other reason than it is a Deere. But is it 20% better? When it comes to reputation and fit and finish, Kubota and Deere are on top. That said, I can easily see how a Montana would be alot less than a Deere, it should be!

 

[Soundguy]

There is no doubt that the Deere is better, if for no other reason than it is a Deere.

Hahahaha!.. that's the definition of 'faith'.. not 'fact'.

Soundguy

 

[Bob_Skurka]

What bothers me in these discussions is the implication that the tractors being considered are "identical" and that the only difference between them is the color of the paint and name on the side.

What follows is my personal story of how I chose my tractor and brand, and why I get a bit perturbed when people imply that all tractors are the same, except that JD tractors just cost more, and that their owners only bought them because either a) they fell for the JD "hype", or b) they have more money than they know what to do with, or c) they just don't know any better...

[Warning: long post follows...]

When I was looking, I saw major differences between the five brands I evaluated: JD, NH, Kubota, Montana, and Mahindra...

The Montana tractor I looked at was very "rough". Some of the welds looked like crap, the paint was not particularly uniform in color and quality (different pieces were different shades of green), but in general, it looked like a "decent" piece of equipment. Ergonomics touches were almost non-existent - non-floating seat, non-adjustable (and too close for me) steering wheel, etc. Deciding factor for me? The dealer/salesman couldn't be bothered to come outside to talk to me, despite the fact that I was crawling all over (and under) various models in his product line, and when I looked into the shop area, it looked like the aftermath of a hurricane - stuff strewn all over, and a partially disassembled engine sitting on the ground, surrounded by loose parts rolling in grit. I'm sure I could have paid less for a Montana than the others, but I would never have been comfortable with that dealer doing the service - and he's the only one around. Scratch one from the list.

Next stop was the New Holland/Mahindra dealer. The sales rep was among the best I worked with. He knew his stuff, and knew how to "sell" his equipment without bashing the other guy's stuff. He pointed out things that differentiated his brands and models from each other, and from their competition, without making a judgement call as to whether this was something I needed/wanted or not. Just made the observations. He also took the time to understand what I planned to do with the tractor before showing me anything. He also showed me something that he thought was below my needs and above my needs, explaining why he thought so in each case. I learned a lot from the experience. He also showed me the shop area, which was well organized and reasonably clean, and had a wide variety of equipment in for service. I would have been very comfortable buying from him.

His Mahindra tractors looked extremely tough, and heavy to go along with it. If I wanted a larger ag tractor, I would have been far more interested, because their gear tractors truly were FAR less expensive than the other big brands. The ergonomics of the smaller tractors, however, were not a good fit for me. The operator station felt very cramped and uncomfortable, and I didn't like the "feel" sitting there. I couldn't imagine spending an entire day in that operator station. Their hydro model was a lot pricier than the gear tractors, but hydro is necessary for me because I want my wife to be able to use the tractor. And finally, the salesman himself seemed to be (very politely) steering me away from the hydro model that fit my criteria the best, pointing out that it was new to the product line, and they didn't have much experience with it. I took the hint, and we went on to look at his NH line (TC-series).

There was a lot about the TC-series that I really liked, including the swivel seat (nice for someone with a slightly stiff back), and the tilt/telescoping steering wheel. Super-steer was interesting, and evidence of innovative engineering, but overkill for my property. The NH hydro appeared to be slightly more efficient (larger % of the engine HP made it to the PTO), and frankly, I think the blue color is very nice-looking. I really liked the control arrangement, with the fender-mounted controls that eliminate that "scratching my butt" feel that some tractors have when operating the 3PH controls... All in all, there were a very few things that I didn't like, including the "rocker-pedal" for the HST (I'm used to the dual-pedal arrangement on my riding mower). The New Holland TC stayed on my "short list" to the very end.

The Kubota was another story. . . I got on them, and found the operator station to be a pretty crowded. The FEL controls were very awkwardly placed (though I've since learned that Kubota also offers an "upgrade" to reposition the FEL controls by the seat). I tried out the "treadle" pedal for the Hydro, and something caught my eye. It took a while to sink in, but when it did, I couldn't believe my eyes: the rocker pedal for the hydro and the steering brakes (split pedal) are both the right-hand side of the tractor. I wondered to myself - how in the heck do you apply differential braking while making a tight turn, or when one wheel loses traction and begins to spin, or... You must remove your foot from the hydro pedal to press the brake, which means you come to a stop. On others, you work the brake with the left foot and the hydro with the right, meaning that you can stop the spinning wheel with the brake and pull yourself out. Or apply "inside" brakes to make a tighter turn while still pressing the "go" pedal. I tried reaching both feet to that side - just to see if it could be done - and I could not. I talked to people on TBN about it, and sure enough, it's just an unbelievably stupid design decision. This seems like a serious safety issue to me, and was enough to cause me to not bother to return when the dealership was open.

I was already familiar with the JD dealer, because I bought a riding mower from them 11 years ago. They've got a great shop with knowledgeable mechanics, and have always treated me well. The salesman I worked with is the same guy who sold me the lawn tractor, and he's very knowledgeable, easy to work with, and very much a no-nonsense kind of guy. Again, no "bashing" of other products, or trying to live off Deere's past reputation, just information about his products, and specific things that he feels are their competitive advantages. Good guy...

When I looked the JD tractors, they impressed me as better finished, better appointed, and better throught out than the other brands I looked at. (Except for NH, which I would say appeared to be JD's equal in this regard.) There are no "rough edges" to this thing. The air ride seat is extremely comfortable, and there is sufficient adjustment to the seat and tilt-wheel for me to find an "all-day" position that works. All of the controls are very convenient and easy to use -- except one (the 3rd SCV lever, which is too close to the seat - but that's nit-picking - and it's the one I will certainly use the least). The rest of the controls and ergonomics all just seemed "right" to me.

After all was said and done, my "short list" was down to 2 tractors: JD 3320 and NH TC-31. Both dealers seemed great. Both tractors seemed great. Now we're down to pricing. I was fully expecting that the NH guy would cream the JD guy on pricing. What I found was the opposite. The JD turned out to be well over $1,000 less than the best price for the NH. Furthermore, the JD dealer quoted his "best" price to me up front, with no negotiation, whereas I had to beat up the NH guy to get the "best price" that I got. When the NH guy came back with a more comparable offer, they had substituted a lower cost, light-duty rotary cutter for the medium-duty one that we had agreed I needed. The salesman was obviously embarrassed about it - and pointed it out "up front" so that I wouldn't lose respect for him, but that was the best they could do.

So, when you hear that JD is "always" more expensive - it's not necessarily true. And when you hear that there are no "real" differences between the various brands - it's flat out not true. There were lots of distinguishing features on each and every one of these tractors.

The bottom line: You are going to live with the tractor for a long time, if you pick the right one. Take your time. Visit dealerships. Sit on the various tractors, and (if possible) test drive as many as you can. Decide which features are important to you, and how much you're willing to pay for them. (I love the cab, but it just wasn't worth the money to me, based on my expected use over the next 10-15 years.) Then get pricing from the dealers, and make your choice and be happy with it. If you decide to spend a bit more to get a feature that you particularly like, you're making an informed decision. If you decide that the additional feature (the NH swivel seat, for me) was a luxury you could live without, then don't pay for it.

Jim that was so well said it needed to be repeated.

It also completely blows away the myth that "green paint" cost more and it also blows away the myth that all tractors are created equal. FWIW, I don't own a green tractor, one is blue, one is orange, one is yellow, and one is white/red. But your points stand true and your "bottom line" points should be mandatory reading for everyone. Your points about the various dealers, and their shop areas should also be strongly considered.

 

[Dargo]

It took a while to sink in, but when it did, I couldn't believe my eyes: the rocker pedal for the hydro and the steering brakes (split pedal) are both the right-hand side of the tractor. I wondered to myself - how in the heck do you apply differential braking while making a tight turn, or when one wheel loses traction and begins to spin, or... You must remove your foot from the hydro pedal to press the brake, which means you come to a stop. On others, you work the brake with the left foot and the hydro with the right, meaning that you can stop the spinning wheel with the brake and pull yourself out. Or apply "inside" brakes to make a tighter turn while still pressing the "go" pedal. I tried reaching both feet to that side - just to see if it could be done - and I could not.

Actually, that's not an issue nor a problem. It's handled very easily. You can drive the Kubota hydro tractors just as easy with the "cruise control" lever on the left side of the driver's seat. It's actually connected to the hydro pedal. When you move the lever you see the hydro pedal move in concert with it. So, you simply press the appropriate brake pedal and drive the tractor with the hand lever. It not only works well, but I prefer to drive my tractor with that lever than the treadle pedal. I don't care for the single rocker type pedal. Hitting any bumps in my yard cause me to equally bump the foot pedal, which gives a very jerky ride. Besides, on a long day, I get shin splints from that darn pedal. I almost always use the hand control. So, the salesperson must have assumed that you knew that was how the Kubota Hydro tractors use the turning brakes. It really does work quite well.

 

[therebarely]

Soundguy,

You picked up on the sarcasm. Actually, just visited the auto paint store, and red is the most expensive paint, not green.