Build A Pond?

[EddieWalker]

Off the top of my head, "gunite" is when you add air to concrete and spray it on. The air allows it to stick to verticle walls and even overhead applications. It's used in swimming pools for this reason.

Anything you add to your soil to make it water proof is going to be expensive. A concrete or cement base material that does not have allot of rebar will just crack and leak. Even the best clay leaks to some degree, the only sure fire, will not leak material out there is a rubber liner.

Clay is going to be the cheapest material if it's available. If not, there are just some ponds that are too expensive to make.

Eddie

 

[PineRidge]

A neighbor of mine just down the road built a new home and built a pond so he could use a GEO w/pond loop. The pond wouldn't hold water so that winter he had to use his emergency heat.

The next summer he tilled in Bentonite and it has held water ever since.

ben⋅ton⋅ite   /ˈbɛn

tnˌaɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ben-tn-ahyt] Show IPA Pronunciation

墨oun Mineralogy. a clay formed by the decomposition of volcanic ash, having the ability to absorb large quantities of water and to expand to several times its normal volume.

 

[ctpres]

Re: Dump trailer. Just did a quick Craigs List and looks like 20 cyd for under $5,000 is not unusual. Suspect recent hurricane construction and trash hauling is wraping up and it may be a very good time to buy. Three questions: 1. dump angle seems to be a big factor, many pic's look like thirty or so degrees. Seems to me that bigger angle may be needed to actually dump dirt. 2. single axel with duals or tandem axel? and 3. ball hitch or goose neck. Hope I got the terms right.

 

[EddieWalker]

Be sure you are looking at a dump that is rated for dirt and not debris. 20 yards is a massive amount of dirt and depending on moisture content, can weigh up to 80,000 pounds. 4,000 pounds a yard X 20 yards = 80,000 pounds. If it's dry, it might be half this amount depending on it's content. On the light side, figure 2,500 pounds a yard, but that's pretty light.

There is no way in there world that you have a tractor or vehicle that can handle this. 20 yards of debris, like timber framing or branches has allot of air pockets in it when loaded, so that 20 yard rating is more on volume and not weight. Debris trailers are becoming more and more popular for contractors because they do not require a CDL license. If I need stuff hauled off, I can have anybody with a drivers license tow a dump trailer, but if I want it in a dump truck, I need somebody with a CDL license. They are all over the place, but not any good for hauling dirt.

A dirt trailer will be smaller and designed for dirt. It will be obvious when looking at them. Yes, you can load dirt in a debris trailer, just be sure to stay within it's limits. Too much dirt will cause all sorts of problems, including catastrophic failure of the lift.

One of the reasons moving dirt is so expensive, it's VERY HEAVY!!!!

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[jinman]

Re: Dump trailer. Just did a quick Craigs List and looks like 20 cyd for under $5,000 is not unusual.

$5,000 for a dump trailer! What are you going to tow it with? If you plan to use your tractor, you will have to hook it up, tow it to the site, unhook it, fill it carefully so the tongue weight stays right, hook up to it, tow it to the dumpsite, dump, return to dig site, unhook. . . ad infinitem. To make this an efficient operation, you really need a tow vehicle and another person to drive it. This doesn't even sound like fun to me.

I'd love to agree with you that this is a good idea, but I just can't. Why don't you see what that $5,000 will get you for a dozer in your area? Here is the way I see this working out:

Week 1 - Gee! This is really fun. Look at what I've done.
Week 2 - Still making good progress. I love having tools to do work myself.
Week 3 - Look at how the dirt is piling up. It's slower than I thought, but I'm getting there.
Week 4 - It rained a bit and I've got to get the water out before I can continue. I found a good trash pump on Craigslist for $700. I think I'll buy that and pump out the water.
Week 5 - Well, I got most of the water out, but got stuck in the mud and had to call out a wrecker to pull me out. It was only $150, so that's not too bad. Back to hauling dirt.
Week 6 - Whew! I'm still making good progress, but my back and legs are killin' me.
Week 7 - This is gonna take awhile. You guys really were right that this is a huge job for my tractor and me. I look at dozers and daydream about having one.
Week 8 - I talked to a dozer guy today. He said he'd be glad to finish my project for me for around $3000. I think I'll see what he can do.
Week 9 - Wow! That dozer got the job done quickly. Now, all I have to do is clean up and do some landscaping.
Week 10 - If anybody on TBN ever suggests that they can dig a pond with their tractor, I'm gonna tell them they should hire a dozer.

Sorry, but I just don't see a lot of happy times for you a few weeks down the line. Just please do one thing for me before you start. Find a dozen people with the size pond you want on their land. Ask all of them how the pond was put in. If anyone of them says they did it with a compact tractor, then go ahead and try it. If all of them say they used a dozer or something bigger than a compact, don't try it. There is very little reward in being the first to do it. You'll spend lots of money and maybe wear out a $20,000 compact tractor and $5000 trailer. If I didn't see a little of my own experience in my list above, I wouldn't feel this way.

 

[Rowdius]

Any dam would back water up into neighbors land. I have cut a small ditch to improve drainage over the past three years and think I can work next to the ditch so it would take exceptionally heavy rain to fill pond in progress. Then near the end I can cut into ditch area.
The simple plan-dig till I'm tired or have reached desired size. Then move dirt as needed for other projects over the next few years. Neighbor might have big tree removal project so heavy equipment help is not ruled out. I never plan projects that I can't do by myself.

Well, maybe, but just about every tank I've dug has had a spillway to allow water to bypass the dam once the tank was full. It will take a little planning and some grade work, but very possible in most cases. Or, there is the option of a flow-through tank, where the spoil is pushed to either side of the slope instead of the the deep end (think of basically digging a creek deeper rather than damming a side.) Of course, if you do not like the looks of either, then it perfectly okay to haul the dirt, that is just time and money.

If you are just going to haul on your own place, if you can get it in where you need it, and if you can find one small enough to load with your tractor, I'd go with an old dump truck rather than the dump trailer. Sure, you have an extra engine to maintain for awhile, but anything that you can do to make less trips will save you many hours over the long haul. Most dump trucks loaded way too high will haul (and still be able to dump) much more than a dump trailer loaded way too high. And if you're just going to haul on your own place, then there is no worries about tags, sticker, insurance, or being over weight.

 

[sld]

Several years ago I had a 1 1/2 acre pond dug an average of 6 foot deep with one corner about 10 foot deep for 400 bucks. A local dirt guy took the first 4 feet for free over the course of 3 months. One day he tipped his big 4 wheel loader over on some loose dirt and we were able to get a basement digger down the road to stop by. He had a huge CAT back hoe and pulled the loader back over. As I was talking to him, he said he would come back the next week and finish the digging for 400 bucks. That machine in the hands of a skilled operator could move a bunch of dirt fast.

One thing I did was have him create an island. This helped a bunch in cutting down how much dirt the hoe had to move. I'll never forget him tracking up the side of the island swinging his bucket back and forth and when he got to the top he rotated in circles tamping down the sides.

The two things I learned were find someone willing to take the top soil and also think about an island to save dirt moving.

I finished the landscaping with my small Ford. I was working second shift at the time so most of my seat time was from midnight to 3 am using a bunch of lights on the rops. Looking back, that was a heckuva lot of fun.

 

[meadowlarkponds]

One thing I did was have him create an island. This helped a bunch in cutting down how much dirt the hoe had to move.

An interesting variation of this idea is to leave underwater islands in the deepest areas of the pond. Above water islands can have some drawbacks, such as being very difficult to maintain. An underwater island in the deep regions can turn unused water around the thermocline into productive ambush zones for fish. My approach is to leave underwater islands about three feet below the eventual water level and then add some quality brush to the top three feet. It creates some amazing fish zones. Don't forget to mark them.

Another variation of this theme comes into play when renovating an old pond...what to do with all the tons and tons of muck. My solution has been again the underwater island of muck, ringed with good clay to hold it in place. Works for me.

The pond in my avitar has four underwater islands and its about 4 acres total size.

 

[EddieWalker]

When I built my big pond, also 4 acres in size, I built three underwater islands that are four feet below the surface when the pond is totally full. Since I'm down a foot or two by the end of summer, that means they have 2 to three feet of water over them when we're out there fishing. The sides of my islands drop four feet to the bottom of the pond and the pond depth varies from 8 to 12 feet when full. Stumps and logs that didn't burn are piles and scaterd over the bottom as well as along the sides of the islands in places.

My small pond has an island for the very reason mentioned. Save time in removing dirt. I justified it as a place for ducks to be safe and hang out, but they rarely use it. I was hoping for ducks in my big pond, but the shoreline is too steep for them to have any feeding and the water is too deep for them. I get a few ducks from time to time, but mostly they avoid it. I don't think a good duck pond is the same as a good bass pond, and I built mine for growing large bass.

Eddie

 

[meadowlarkponds]

I was hoping for ducks in my big pond, but the shoreline is too steep for them to have any feeding and the water is too deep for them. Eddie

Same here...but often we get the exhausted ducks/geese looking for a "motel". One time we had about 5 or 6 geese that were so exhausted from flying that they just crashed and wouldn''t even move when you walked up to them. Very vulnerable...but within 24 hours they were back to normal and on the wing south.

 

[sld]

Above water islands can have some drawbacks, such as being very difficult to maintain.

I don't even try to maintain our island. I planted a cottonwood in the middle about 20 years ago and that thing is massive now. There are also some willows around the water line. It is great piece of structure for fishing.

One other thing is I have buried 2 bird dogs on that island. It is a great place that other critters won't bother. The only other animals ever on the island are some nesting geese that show up every year. There is however some poison ivy that somehow got started. I had that stuff from head to toe after burying the last dog. The way I see it is if my mom ever sells the land no one will ever mess with a poison ivy covered island and my dogs will rest in peace.

 

[Renze]

Yes, but you never met the fellow I bought that place from. Common sense definitely wasn't one of his attributes.

Also, digging 4 feet DEEPER and grading the clay back, will increase the cost of the pond quite a bit....

 

[Rowdius]

Also, digging 4 feet DEEPER and grading the clay back, will increase the cost of the pond quite a bit....

It does add some to it, but not _that_ much, as that he would not have to put all four feet of clay back to seal it. I've lined tanks that started out as sandy gravel with a foot of clay and they are holding water today.

 

[blueriver]

Blueriver,

You said,

"I don't know how many years back that was, but this year they charged in my area $1.85 per yard and 2 years ago it was $1.60 per yard. The USDA after you show them where and about how big they then calculate the yardage. Hire the contractor and build a pond. 2 years ago we put in a large pond at a cost of $7500 with the cost share being 75% paid by them, this years project was $3700 with 50% paid by them."

I am looking at building a 1-2 acre pond on my property and did not know there were any government assistance. Can you tell me where I should look?

Thanks,

Your local county agency ... here it is the NRCS (Natural Resources Conservation Service)

 

[SGBotsford]

I'll emphasize what an earlier poster said:

Give or sell the dirt in the hole.

A local oil field service company was working on the gas well at our place. We had a chat, and he needed 800 cubic yards of fill for remediation on another site. I told him he could have the dirt if he took it form where I said. Two days later a Hitachi track hoe showed up. They pulled 45 dump truck loads of clay out, leaving me a pond that was 14 feet deep in the middle.


In general a tractor is not the right tool for the job. It's really a multi tool job: Here to get any governemtn assistance (33%) it has to be a minimum of 6000 cubic meters, and a minimum of 14 feet deep. For the main hole, get the biggest trackhoe that can fit on a lowboy. Get the operator with it. A good operator will be 10 times as fast as you will be. If the soil is going to be spread nearby, get a cat to do it. Cats are a lot faster as spreading.

Around here, you'd better seed the dirt pile to something, otherwise it will be thistles and nettles. Annual rye and good pasture mix. If all your top soil ends underneath, start out with a legume like hairy vetch.

Lot to be said for deep and shallow spots. A cattail fringe will help keep small kids out, or at least keep them from dying. If the inlet area has a large shallow zone of cattail, it will filter excess nutrients out of the water, reducing the algae and pond weed. It also will settle out a lot of dirt during spring runoff.

Try to keep organic matter from falling in. (leaves/sticks) This aggravates the pond weed problem, and the decomposition drops the Oxygen levels if you have fish.

If it isn't exposed to much wind, adding some form of aeration will keep the fish happier and reduce the scum problem.

If you are on a stream bed, then put another very shallow pond upstream. It will only fill for 3-4 weeks during spring runoff or during heavy rain fall periods, but it can act as a pre-filter to keep the big pond clean. Leakage from it can keep the big pond full if you have a long summer.

Carrying this idea further, a chain of ponds up the creek.

To minimize the distance dirt is moved, use all the dirt you dig OUT of the hole as material for the dam. In this case you probably want a sheep's foot roller. Dams need to be well packed. Having a drain pipe will make it easier to drain the pond for digging, fixing leaks and so on.

Warning: In our province, DIY dams can be no more than 6 feet high. More than that requries another permit, a design approval signed by an engineer, and periodic inspection. For some reason the authorities have a dim view of 20 foot high walls of water sweeping over the county roads. Go Figure.

 

[ctpres]

Based on input from TBN University faculty (Y'all) I decided to Go 4 It. 1. Reduced size to 1/4 to 1/5 acre. 2. Changed location from rear of property to nearer house with layout based on best line of sight from house. 3. Added option to bring in heavy equipment if/when I get tired or run out of time. 4. Give some dirt to neighbors (they come get it) to reduce work.
Bacically am going to dig a very shallow ditch deeper and wider. Currently: getting rid of trees and major roots, removing top foot or so of top soil for use around property and defining size an shape of finished project. Retired 1/1/2010 and now have time. Will post pic's from time to time as work progresses

 

[jinman]

Ctpres, it sounds and looks like you've got it going. Congratulations on your retirement.

You sure have a pretty place with nice trees. A nice pond in there would be very cool.

 

[EddieWalker]

Retired 1/1/2010 and now have time.

CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!

With lots of time on your hands, digging your pond will be just about the most fun you can have. Of course, it might seem like work while you're doing it, but it's not. When you feel wore out, take a break, but never quit digging and moving dirt until it's where you want it to be. The only regret that anybody ever has with a pond is that it's not big enough. No pond ever is!! Figure out the maximum size that you can make it, and keep at it until you get it to that point. If it takes all year, or five years, it's better to take the time then to have any regrets.

Enjoy,
Eddie

 

[Bartcephus]

Ponds.... I just love those "tanks" of water. I found out that sometimes having a pond close to a house in a rural area can lower your homeowner's insurance premiums if it is accessable to a fire engine pumper. Good thought on getting it closer to the house!

Hey Eddie,
I'm only two hours away in Texarkana! Your lake is BEAUTIFUL. If your ever up this way let me know.

 

[FortClatsop]

Here we go again. Just when my slough starts feeling good about itself again it's fragile self image is over taken by another case of pond envy.

I do love these threads. Keep us posted.