Western versus Eastern technology competition

[Redneck in training]

By the way Ladia, sometimes you see people in East Germany mourning for DDR times of the past, because they felt it went better back then... Hearing from you how things went, i wonder what kind of people would want to get the old system back... Perhaps the ones that never took an active role in their livelihood anyways ?

Yes. The same thing is occurring in all former east bloc countries. The life used to be bad (measured by today's standard) but was very predictable in the past. There were not big differences in income (excluding the top commies) between people. The system could be often abused for own benefit etc. Now the life is more unpredictable, many people would prefer security before gain. Some people feel threatened. People also remember the good and forget the bad. We used to dream about leaving the country just to see what out there behind the border. Now people are free to go wherever they wish to go but don't have always the means. We used dream about better places and fortunate people living there but now faced with reality those dreams are shuttered. People miss dreams.

 

[Hiltz]

Renze, your previous post suggests the Americans could not have gone to the moon without the help of the Germans and the the Russian scientist were somehow more capable, advanced, and knowledgeable about rockets than the west. I suggest you do a Wikipedia search for Robert Goddard. An American scientist who was years ahead in his early research of rocket propulsion. I believe you will find in the article where the KGB were able to secretly make copies of his research papers thus saving themselves time and money in rocket technology.

 

[Renze]

I suggest you do a Wikipedia search for Robert Goddard. An American scientist who was years ahead in his early research of rocket propulsion. I believe you will find in the article where the KGB were able to secretly make copies of his research papers thus saving themselves time and money in rocket technology.

You seem very pressed to prove American superiority. But lets face the facts: Goddard improved flares into crude rockets to get to 2 miles height, which was unheard of at that time. The Germans were able to launch a rocket and direct it from the launch site in Ommen, a place some 5 miles from my birthplace, to Antwerp and London. It was terrifying at that time because it was so unknown. Both the Americans and the Russians re assembled these V2 rockets and reverse engineered them. From that point onwards, Sergej Korolyov got two dogs into space, then got the Sputnik into orbit. The American Redstone programs with the monkey, failed, they were lagging behind. Then Wernher von Braun and his team of German engineers had their go with the Saturn program which was on hold since 1954 and which, with American money, brought eventually men on the moon.

You can argue that the credit for the moon landing shouldnt be to the German engineers that made it happen but to the Greek, because they used the theorem of pythagoras to measure the squareness of the launch pad, but every new technology is based on the work of previous accomplishments by others....

Really, i am far from anti America, nor anti the American political system, but i insist on giving credit where credit is due... The space race was between German engineers (with US funds) and Soviet engineers (with Soviet funds) untill 1969 the Americans lagged behind. In the 80's the Soviets ground to a halt because their system of government was unsustainable by every means.

 

[Renze]

No, man, bring me from the socialism far, far away! Wherever it's coming from...
Because the socialistic society is not a creative one, it's a destructive society by its nature. If not to say moreover, it generates non-responsibility and even criminal trends.

Stalin used to speak of "useful idiots" whenever commie sympathising news reporters went to the USSR to write about how great life was in the areas the Soviets wanted you to see....

Oh, and by the way: My brother is reservist in the army, to guide the king by horse on official occasions. He has the same complaint about the Dutch military: Non-responsibility on every level. However if the **** hits the fan, the minister of defence is eager to fire the general just to save his own *** from public disgrace... Thats how governments work, and thats why i favour to mind my own business, and have a small government.

 

[Renze]

Yes. The same thing is occurring in all former east bloc countries. The life used to be bad (measured by today's standard) but was very predictable in the past. There were not big differences in income (excluding the top commies) between people. The system could be often abused for own benefit etc. Now the life is more unpredictable, many people would prefer security before gain. Some people feel threatened. People also remember the good and forget the bad. We used to dream about leaving the country just to see what out there behind the border. Now people are free to go wherever they wish to go but don't have always the means. We used dream about better places and fortunate people living there but now faced with reality those dreams are shuttered. People miss dreams.

I hope i dont offend anyone, but i get the feeling that only the people who keep dreaming and never take action to change their own life for the better, would long for the commie days....

 

[Hiltz]

Sir Im sorry but you are "cherry picking" your facts. Lets just say we are at a stalemate with this friendly disagreement.

 

[Renze]

We have an issue right now. There are already built highways, which need to widen. Now owners ask for much more, than the real price of the property is. Don't know, how will they solve it.

Here in Holland, if the local government wants to expand the city and the farmer doesnt want to sell, he can stretch the process for a few years untill the government can disposess the landowner. However, disposessing means that you get more than twice the actual value. I had a classmate whose father was disposessed by the nearby city for several times, and they kept spending the money on new tractors and more land... In fact they got quite better off this...

Yes, pure capitalism cannot exist either, there is allways a wee bit of sacrifice for the common good: however the compensation should be enough for buying another piece of farmland elsewhere, plus a good bonus for the inconvenience...

 

[Renze]

Lets just say we are at a stalemate with this friendly disagreement.

I like that line... Lets put it into perspective of this debate about cold war, free market economy in which competition leads to better products (or debate statements ) or totalitarian regimes which claim an absolute truth... We're both using our freedom because we CAN

 

[Hiltz]

Well said. Glad we could have this friendly conversation. Here's hoping you have a great holiday.

 

[Redneck in training]

You dont need education to run a business properly. In Holland there is an entrepeneur who started out as a scrap trader, bought old railway cars, sold the undercarriage for scrap and used the superstructures as holiday bungalows which he rented to people. Later he started a structural steel business, bought a potato starch factory which he converted into an indoor lunapark (great when it rains on your kids birthday ! ) and 15 years ago he bought the Kalkar nuclear plant in Germany (which was never active, so no radioactivity) stripped the scrap, and also made a lunapark. He pulled a safety net over the cooling towers and used the blowers to give people a sensation of weightlessness by blowing them up in the air. This guy finished only elementary school because he was badly dyslexic. He has turned scrap into bungalow parks, and rubble into theme parks, with no noteworthy education.

Businesses often fail because managers lack the feeling with whats going on on the floor and therefor keep the wrong people in place... And the most sustainable companies are the ones that turnover their money and invest what they have earned, not what they can borrow or lease... Many earthmoving companies failed in Holland because there was less work, but people that operate solely on external capital (with leased equipment) still have to make their monthly payments so they decide to work under their price for no profit, so they at least are able to pay off their monthly fees, thereby wasting the free market prices. The companies that bought and payd for their equipment, just leave their equipment in the shed if they cant make any money on a job, because their equipment is already payd for and they are not slaves of their lease agencies or financers...

It is true that you don't need education but you need intelligence. In our society most people with brain power are usually well educated. So education is some way a measure of potential.
We employ (my employer), how should I put it, "ambitious technicians" doing very successfully jobs for which engineers are preferable hires. Some way, if you can find such people, they are better employees because they don't quit for another job. They know that no other employer would pay them what they earn working with us.