Lucky to be ALIVE!!!

[Coyote machine]

Here's the thing about the term I use to describe what happened with the starter circuit on Gary's tractor. When I say 'short to ground' my meaning is this: a short path to a ground (negative potential) thus completing a circuit. This is different than a 'dead short' which is accomplished by the example of the wrench between, for instance, the positive and negative post of a battery. If I'm not mistaken, Gary didn't hold the wrench for any length of time against the terminals on the starter solenoid. On the previous page Gary describes picking up the wrench again and tapping on the solenoid to get it to stop: (making noise, being energized?). He did this after the initial, what I described as his short to ground; meaning his wrench allowed the defective and intermittent starter solenoid to complete a short path to ground, through the starter, NOT it's casing, and thus the starter was energized long enough to engage the flywheel. With the tractor in gear the flywheel could not overcome the need to move forward while trying to start the engine. The starting of the engine was hampered by both the trans being in gear AND the tractor encountering the mostly immovable fence, thus it never started. Gary managed to put the trans in reverse, then finally into neutral, and we know the rest.

FWIW, this electrical nightmare Gary encountered is not all that different than what can occur in household wiring circuits. Certain conditions cause shorts at an outlet, for instance. If the culprit is a faulty lamp or other object the house's wiring is saved by the appropriate sized breaker tripping. If the shortest path to ground is a wet human standing in a puddle of water in their bathroom they will likely die before the breaker trips to save them and the house wiring. Unless there is a GFCI in the circuit, which has it's own breaker in the outlet, and the faulty path to ground, (in this case wet human) is sensed by the GFCI's internal highly sensitive circuit which will trip in milliseconds to save the wet human from fatal shock.
Now code requires one further step toward circuit safety; arc fault breakers, which keep a protected circuit from allow any arc that could cause a fire or similar damage from doing so, similar to how the GFCI works. In this case it's similar to the wrench across both hots of the starter solenoid and will sense that fault and open the circuit to prevent it from continuing.
The difference is neither the starter nor the solenoid have any safety in place, no breakers or fuses to open the circuit and stop the damage created by the fault; in this case the wrench literally being 'thrown' into the works.
The rubber boot some starter solenoids have to prevent this type of fault is mediocre at best since it is easily defeated by an operator.

What was described as best practice for testing a faulty starter/solenoid is what is sold as a remote starter switch; a two wire switch with clips for the small spade terminal of the solenoid and one clip for positive feed to the second wire. Pressing the button energizes the circuit and makes the starter engage, if no faults are present, and most importantly keeps the operator clear of the machine and any potential moving parts.

From what I seem to remember of Gary's various descriptions of what took place over numerous posts it seems that the solenoid was defective and working on occasion but intermittently at best. If it were to be removed from the starter and broken down to it's internal components I believe there would be evidence of what was causing the solenoid to act up as it had been and most recently did with Gary's unfortunate incident.

 

[Garycw]

It's a 2004 model. The only way to shut engine off is with the fuel cut off knob/ cable. It would also start with ignition off and key out of you jumped the solenoid to starter.

 

[aczlan]

My guess would be that the solenoid was shorted by the wrench (NOT shorted to ground, just the terminals on the solenoid were shorted across) and that then the solenoid stuck in the "engaged" position.
After he got it into neutral, the bendix (the sliding gear on the starter) freed up and slid back (so the engine stopped cranking) but the solenoid was stuck until he rapped on the started with the wrench (that is what caused the whirring/whining sound)

Aaron Z

 

[Garycw]

That sounds logical to me CM. What ever the wrench shorted was like the remote start switch. Even though it was a split second momentary connection.
NOW, I'll add one more pirce to the puzzle. While I was adjusting the clutch pedal to make the two stage clutch work properly, there is a plunger switch at bottom. With clutch fully depressed pedal arm would depress this switch. When adjusting clutch this switch became loose and I had to hold inplace while I tightened adjusting nut. After that it was blowing fuses. Twice, but then was ok after replacing correct fuse amp. ?? I'm not sure if this switch on clutch arm had anything to do with soleniod staying latched in or not?
I didn't mention this before, but it's just another factor of this mystery latching soleniod and creeping tractor with a like mind of it's own.

 

[Coyote machine]

My guess would be that the solenoid was shorted by the wrench (NOT shorted to ground, just the terminals on the solenoid were shorted across) and that then the solenoid stuck in the "engaged" position.
After he got it into neutral, the bendix (the sliding gear on the starter) freed up and slid back (so the engine stopped cranking) but the solenoid was stuck until he rapped on the started with the wrench (that is what caused the whirring/whining sound)

Aaron Z

The wrench becomes the ground to complete the circuit of the solenoid activating the starter Bendix. Without a completed circuit the solenoid would NOT engage the starter. One could say it's a difference in terminology to the extent that a shorted circuit is still a circuit, and a ground must exist for hot 12Volt potential to make the circuit complete, otherwise all one has infinite potential at the hots of the solenoid and they will never complete a circuit, (find a ground) on it's own willpower.
Result of the wrench making a complete circuit is the solenoid activates the starter, the Bendix engages the flywheel, the tractor tries to start but can't, the gate and Gary's attempt to take the shifter into neutral, but instead moving it to reverse, and eventually to neutral create the perfect nightmare he experienced.

I agree, the solenoid became stuck on, ie, running until Gary smacked it with the wrench at which point the 'shorted' solenoid stopped running/making noise. I maintain the faulty solenoid should be examined by a repair shop to determine the source of the problem. Didn't Gary mention there were issues with the solenoid prior to the accident?

 

[aczlan]

The wrench becomes the ground to complete the circuit of the solenoid activating the starter Bendix. Without a completed circuit the solenoid would NOT engage the starter. One could say it's a difference in terminology to the extent that a shorted circuit is still a circuit, and a ground must exist for hot 12Volt potential to make the circuit complete, otherwise all one has infinite potential at the hots of the solenoid and they will never complete a circuit, (find a ground) on it's own willpower.

Can you find or make a wiring diagram to show what you mean because what I get out of your post goes against every negative ground starter with a built in solenoid that I have seen.
Generally speaking, a starter will have 3 terminals:
1. Battery in
2. Switched power out to the starter motor
3. Solenoid "trigger" from the keyswitch (via any interlocks)
Ground on most starters is provided via the engine block.

Shorting across 1 and 2 will make the starter spin and is probably what the OP did with his wrench.
Shorting from 1 to 3 will also make the starter spin.
Shorting from 1 to ground will cause many sparks and will melt things in short order
Shorting from 2 to ground will do nothing unless the solenoid is on (like when the tractor is cranking). In that case, it will do the same as shorting from 1 to ground.
Shorting from 3 to ground will do nothing unless the key is in "start" position (like when the tractor is cranking). In that case, it will blow a fuse.

Aaron Z

 

[Coyote machine]

Can you find or make a wiring diagram to show what you mean because what I get out of your post goes against every negative ground starter with a built in solenoid that I have seen.
Generally speaking, a starter will have 3 terminals:
1. Battery in
2. Switched power out to the starter motor
3. Solenoid "trigger" from the keyswitch (via any interlocks)
Ground on most starters is provided via the engine block.

Shorting across 1 and 2 will make the starter spin and is probably what the OP did with his wrench.
Shorting from 1 to 3 will also make the starter spin.
Shorting from 1 to ground will cause many sparks and will melt things in short order
Shorting from 2 to ground will do nothing unless the solenoid is on (like when the tractor is cranking). In that case, it will do the same as shorting from 1 to ground.
Shorting from 3 to ground will do nothing unless the key is in "start" position (like when the tractor is cranking). In that case, it will blow a fuse.

Aaron Z

To put an end to the continuing haggling over the details of completion of the circuit, which allowed the defective solenoid to engage Gary's starter, I will say this. The starter is, IF grounding as intended, finding it's ground through the housing's contact with the block. By Gary placing the wrench on a positive, 'energized post' on the solenoid, and consequently it's grounding to the #2 or #3 post you described as terminals above, the circuit was completed and the starter and solenoid were both engaged. In this instance, probably, as I've stated numerous times already the solenoid remained engaged/spinning until Gary managed to hit it with his wrench, and it then stopped making noise/turning.
I doubt it's possible without seeing the actual tractor to determine which post made the remaining connection through Gary's wrench, and for the most part it is inconsequential in the overall scheme of things.
To me, if a positive post and another post are shorted, or bridged via a piece of metal, (Gary's wrench) resulting in engagement of the circuit in question, (the solenoid activating the starter's Bendix), then the resulting circuit is a shorting to ground. Meaning the completion of the circuit from hot on solenoid to hot, (either mentioned other hot post of solenoid through the ground that the starter provides by being bolted to it's ground source, the engine block). If you prefer to call that faulty completion of the circuit something else that's fine by me. Just because it happens to be similar to the way the engine might be started by the keyswitch or switched power to the starter via a short does not make it a valid way to start the engine, hence the term, shorted to ground. Without ground at the block the circuit would not be complete. With the wrench shorting whichever 2 posts on the solenoid the path to ground via the starter was completed thus energizing solenoid and starter.
I think we're saying the same thing, just from possibly different descriptive perspectives. You refer to shorting to ground above, and use the terms short and ground, as do I.
I will try using Google to see what terminology is used most often in starter circuits regarding shorting to ground, and see what results come up.

 

[DarkBlack]

Can you find or make a wiring diagram to show what you mean because what I get out of your post goes against every negative ground starter with a built in solenoid that I have seen.
Generally speaking, a starter will have 3 terminals:
1. Battery in
2. Switched power out to the starter motor
3. Solenoid "trigger" from the keyswitch (via any interlocks)
Ground on most starters is provided via the engine block.

Shorting across 1 and 2 will make the starter spin and is probably what the OP did with his wrench.
Shorting from 1 to 3 will also make the starter spin.
Shorting from 1 to ground will cause many sparks and will melt things in short order
Shorting from 2 to ground will do nothing unless the solenoid is on (like when the tractor is cranking). In that case, it will do the same as shorting from 1 to ground.
Shorting from 3 to ground will do nothing unless the key is in "start" position (like when the tractor is cranking). In that case, it will blow a fuse.

Aaron Z

I already pointed out to him way back on post #138 (page 14), that starters don't engage when shorted to ground.
His only interest is just filling the thread with a bunch of technically incorrect posts ( wordy ones...) in an attempt to make it look like he meant what he didn't mean, that he didn't understand, while keeping a debate going.

 

[aczlan]

To me, if a positive post and another post are shorted, or bridged via a piece of metal, (Gary's wrench) resulting in engagement of the circuit in question, (the solenoid activating the starter's Bendix), then the resulting circuit is a shorting to ground. Meaning the completion of the circuit from hot on solenoid to hot, (either mentioned other hot post of solenoid through the ground that the starter provides by being bolted to it's ground source, the engine block). If you prefer to call that faulty completion of the circuit something else that's fine by me. Just because it happens to be similar to the way the engine might be started by the keyswitch or switched power to the starter via a short does not make it a valid way to start the engine, hence the term, shorted to ground. Without ground at the block the circuit would not be complete. With the wrench shorting whichever 2 posts on the solenoid the path to ground via the starter was completed thus energizing solenoid and starter.
I think we're saying the same thing, just from possibly different descriptive perspectives. You refer to shorting to ground above, and use the terms short and ground, as do I.
I will try using Google to see what terminology is used most often in starter circuits regarding shorting to ground, and see what results come up.

.
Shorting to ground (as generally used) would refer to a case where your wrench went from post 1 to the engine block and bypassed the motor (sending all the current from post 1 to the engine block through the wrench).
Shorting to ground is not (AFAIK) used to describe causing current to flow to ground through the starter motor.
Generally, what the OP did is called shorting across the solenoid.

Aaron Z

 

[Coyote machine]

I already pointed out to him way back on post #138 (page 14), that starters don't engage when shorted to ground.
His only interest is just filling the thread with a bunch of technically incorrect posts ( wordy ones...) in an attempt to make it look like he meant what he didn't mean, that he didn't understand, while keeping a debate going.

You show me a completed circuit of any kind that doesn't return to a ground point from a hot 12volt wire.
You are so arrogant as to think you know what my interest is in this thread, or any place else for that matter?! Are you going to start talking about other things that you know nothing about, like ignore lists? Too wordy for you? Attention span overloaded? Pathetic. I'm not debating anyone, just answering questions directed my way. There is nothing technically incorrect about anything I've said, nor anything I didn't understand. I asked the OP to verify his solenoid was acting up prior to the incident to save reading through waste of time posts like yours, to get to the facts as the OP stated them.

.
Shorting to ground (as generally used) would refer to a case where your wrench went from post 1 to the engine block and bypassed the motor (sending all the current from post 1 to the engine block through the wrench).
Shorting to ground is not (AFAIK) used to describe causing current to flow to ground through the starter motor.
Generally, what the OP did is called shorting across the solenoid.

Aaron Z

A dead short would be what you described by a wrench going from a hot to something like the block, (ground). If there were a fuse in the particular hot wire it would blow to protect the wire. The starter circuit in most older tractors doesn't usually have fuse, BUT recent ones do, like the 60 AMP fuse in my starter circuit, for instance.
The starter motor is grounded to the block, and the block through the frame, and the frame through the tires to actual earth ground. A short caused by putting a wrench from a hot post on the solenoid and shorting the circuit to the starter from the solenoid cause the solenoid and starter circuits to make contact, energizing the solenoid and consequently the starter, thus completing the circuit through to ground. Short to ground.
You call it shorting across the solenoid, I call it a short to ground. We're both right because without the ground one has not completed a circuit. 12 volts present doesn't make the starter or solenoid active/spin. Completion of the circuit by key switch, or in this case, wrench across the posts, both make the engine try to start.

 

[ecbaatz]

The starter motor is grounded to the block, and the block through the frame, and the frame through the tires to actual earth ground.

Coyote Machine, I agree with the above statement until you state that it is grounded thru the tires to the ground. The tires are rubber, rubber is an insulator.

At least that is what I was taught in my 20 years in the Navy as an electrician on submarines.

 

[aczlan]

You call it shorting across the solenoid, I call it a short to ground. We're both right because without the ground one has not completed a circuit.

Not by the terminology that is commonly used or by what happens. Until this thread, I had never heard of shorting across a solenoid referred to as shorting to ground.
By your logic, I should call hooking up a motor the same as connecting the wires directly to each other. There is a difference, there is resistance in the motor windings, so it isn't a dead short like shorting to ground would be.

Here is an article describing what a short to ground is: Automotive Technology Studies - Short to Ground - Session 10 - 1
They say in part: A short to ground occurs when current flow reaches ground before it is intended
Note the bolded part. That is what makes it a short to ground, that the current is reaching the ground before it was intended to.

Aaron Z

 

[RaydaKub]

The starter motor is grounded to the block, and the block through the frame, and the frame through the tires to actual earth ground.

Coyote Machine, I agree with the above statement until you state that it is grounded thru the tires to the ground. The tires are rubber, rubber is an insulator.

At least that is what I was taught in my 20 years in the Navy as an electrician on submarines.

Exactly. If you put a cable directly from the negative terminal to a ground rod driven into the ground it still won't start. It has to be a complete circuit back to the source of the energy, which is the battery. That's why they call it a "circuit" as in the electrons travel in a circle.

The reason an AC line is dangerous after a storm is because the generator is really grounded, even though it may be hundreds of miles away. The electrons want to return home. Earth ground has no relevance when it comes to a tractor's starter.

 

[TomSeller]

I think the reason the tractor did not start was the fuel cut off knob was still in stop position from the last time Gary stopped the tractor. I do not recall Gary saying he ever moved the fuel cut off back to run position. Gary, did you?

This is like a mystery novel.

 

[Coyote machine]

The starter motor is grounded to the block, and the block through the frame, and the frame through the tires to actual earth ground.

Coyote Machine, I agree with the above statement until you state that it is grounded thru the tires to the ground. The tires are rubber, rubber is an insulator.

At least that is what I was taught in my 20 years in the Navy as an electrician on submarines.

OK. We could get into a whole other discussion about what constitutes a ground, an insulator, and an isolator, etc. RE: NEC code, UL and CSA, but that isn't pertinent here. Here's an interesting twist on grounding. A state police cruiser rooftop antenna was struck by lightening and the resultant charge blew out one of his rear tires, literally as a result of the strike. The strike found it's ground in the ground, though those who know lightening technically in detail know that little 'tracers' IIRC, are sent up from the earth/ground that meet the lightening strike instead of the commonly thought to be lightening coming from the sky.
Ok, I'll concede that as far as the tractor or auto finding earth ground, it is not necessary to pass directly to the earth, as would be the case in house wiring, but that is not to say that a ground is not ever found on things like an auto through rubber. Remember when cars had rubber straps going to the ground to prevent shocks from going to the toll booth operators and possibly for other reasons, I'm unaware of?
And being a sub guy I'm sure you know of stray voltage issues in salt water and between boats that can cause problems like the submerged outboard engine parts getting 'eaten' by the electrolysis?
Do subs encounter this, or do you have other methods of eliminating the problem?

Not by the terminology that is commonly used or by what happens. Until this thread, I had never heard of shorting across a solenoid referred to as shorting to ground.
By your logic, I should call hooking up a motor the same as connecting the wires directly to each other. There is a difference, there is resistance in the motor windings, so it isn't a dead short like shorting to ground would be.

Here is an article describing what a short to ground is: Automotive Technology Studies - Short to Ground - Session 10 - 1
They say in part: A short to ground occurs when current flow reaches ground before it is intended
Note the bolded part. That is what makes it a short to ground, that the current is reaching the ground before it was intended to.

Aaron Z

So because the wrench shorted the path to ground it was not reached before it was intended to? I suspect Gary would argue different. He didn't 'intend' for the wrench to find a ground at all, but it did, and not through the ignition switch, not through a starter remote switch, but directly through shorting out two posts that allowed a short path to ground at the block via the solenoid/starter circuit. The wrench shortened the path to ground; in other words the wrench was NOT intended to FIND a path, or PROVIDE a path to ground, but it did and the path was shorter than going through the ignition wires, etc, etc.
And just because you haven't heard a particular terminology used doesn't make it invalid. Your example of hooking up a motor or attaching two wires being the same thing is ludicrous. You stick by your terminology, and I'll use mine and we'll just have to disagree. I have no desire to debate this further.

 

[Coyote machine]

I think the reason the tractor did not start was the fuel cut off knob was still in stop position from the last time Gary stopped the tractor. I do not recall Gary saying he ever moved the fuel cut off back to run position. Gary, did you?

This is like a mystery novel.

That could well explain why he did not get a running motor from the starter's circuit trying to make it run.

 

[Garycw]

I think the reason the tractor did not start was the fuel cut off knob was still in stop position from the last time Gary stopped the tractor. I do not recall Gary saying he ever moved the fuel cut off back to run position. Gary, did you?

This is like a mystery novel.

The fuel cut off knob is spring loaded. You pull it out and hold till engine dies. If you release before completely stopped it springs back and engine continues to run. It's Always in run position until you pull it and hold it. When released. It automatically goes back to run.
SS far as the shirting terminology debate, when trying to carefully tighten large soleniod terminal nut, it may have actually shorted to " positive" either way the wrench momentarily completed the circuit , engauged starter, and stayed engauged even though wrench fell clear to the floor if barn. Once in neutral, starter Disengauged, but soleniod did not, until I hit it again. I'll be checking all the connections someday. ( including the clutch switch) and I can assure the battery will be disconnected( both terminals) or removed. I experienced the blown fuse issues after adjusting clutch. The back of that terminal could have something to do with it latching in. If it had not latched in I would have possably had time to have gotten into neutral and rolled back off my foot & ankle before lurching again to the point of no return.

 

[Garycw]

E

I think the reason the tractor did not start was the fuel cut off knob was still in stop position from the last time Gary stopped the tractor. I do not recall Gary saying he ever moved the fuel cut off back to run position. Gary, did you?

This is like a mystery novel.

The fuel cut off knob is spring loaded. You pull it out and hold till engine dies. If you release before completely stopped it springs back and engine continues to run. It's Always in run position until you pull it and hold it. When released. It automatically goes back to run. I thinks the gate actually kept it from starting. Like trying to start in gear with front of tractor against a wall. The gate did a good job holding it back, but was loosing gradually.
As far as the shorting terminology debate, when trying to carefully tighten large soleniod terminal nut, it may have actually shorted to " positive" either way the wrench momentarily completed the circuit , engauged starter, and stayed engauged even though wrench fell clear to the floor if barn. Once in neutral, starter Disengauged, but soleniod did not, until I hit it again. I'll be checking all the connections someday. ( including the clutch switch) and I can assure the battery will be disconnected( both terminals) or removed. I experienced the blown fuse issues after adjusting clutch. The back of that terminal could have something to do with it latching in. If it had not latched in I would have possably had time to have gotten into neutral and rolled back off my foot & ankle before lurching again to the point of no return.
Ps.. Please excuse some of my spelling, this is all being done from my trusty life saving phone

 

[aczlan]

So because the wrench shorted the path to ground it was not reached before it was intended to? I suspect Gary would argue different. He didn't 'intend' for the wrench to find a ground at all, but it did, and not through the ignition switch, not through a starter remote switch, but directly through shorting out two posts that allowed a short path to ground at the block via the solenoid/starter circuit. The wrench shortened the path to ground; in other words the wrench was NOT intended to FIND a path, or PROVIDE a path to ground, but it did and the path was shorter than going through the ignition wires, etc, etc.

But the wrench did not provide a path directly from positive to ground, it provided a path from positive to positive and the motor provided the path to ground (after it got some work out of the electrons).

And just because you haven't heard a particular terminology used doesn't make it invalid.

True, but when the terminology is not the standard terminology and it is likely to confuse people, I am very comfortable saying that it is invalid.
Can you provide some examples of "short to ground" being used to describe shorting across the terminals of a starter (or otherwise bypassing an electrical switch)?
Pretty much anytime you find the term short to ground used, it is describing a connection directly from positive to ground (such as a wrench or wire between the + and - terminals on a battery or from + to the frame of a vehicle).

Your example of hooking up a motor or attaching two wires being the same thing is ludicrous.

Why? Lets say that I am working on a well pump (like the one pictured here: http://inspectapedia.com/water/PressureSwitch004DJFs.jpg ). It has what appears to have a flakey pressure switch, so I short across the terminals with a pair of screwdrivers to bypass the switch and turn the pump on (to verify that its the switch and not the pump before I go by a new switch).
Using your terminology, shorting across the terminals is referred to the same way as connecting the hot wire to neutral or ground because the screwdriver "was NOT intended to FIND a path, or PROVIDE a path to ground, but it did and the path was shorter than going through the" normal run down the well and through the pump motor.
Will shorting across the terminals (positive to positive) be likely to trip the breaker if the pressure switch is the only bad component? No.
Will shorting to ground (positive to neutral or ground) be likely to trip the breaker if the pressure switch is the only bad component? Yes.

You stick by your terminology, and I'll use mine and we'll just have to disagree. I have no desire to debate this further.

How do you propose to differentiate between shorting across the positive terminals (bypassing a switch, solenoid, etc) and doing what everyone else refers to as shorting to ground (positive to ground)? There is a significant difference which is why most people only refer to shorting from positive DIRECTLY to ground as shorting to ground.
Next time you see a mechanic or an electrician, ask them if your car/tractor would start if you short to ground at the starter terminal (with no other explication) and see what they interpret it as. I can pretty much guarantee that they will interpret it as shorting positive directly to ground.


Aaron Z

 

[skyhook]

I understand what CM is trying to say,
Current needs a "return" path to ground, but to safely do so, it also needs a ( without getting to technical ) "load" in it's path.
Without this load ( light, starter, radio etc, etc ) it is considered a short to ground,
depending on the amperage, this short to grnd can cause considerable damage.
Again, my take on this is the solenoid "shorted" closed, this is probably why the starter still spined,
when it was put in neutral, when Gary hit the solenoid again, it dislodged the internal short and opened the solenoid.



Good morning Gary,
how ya feeling this morning, whats the weather like down that way.