Tractor Sizing Almost Daily Thread: SUBCOMPACT or COMPACT TRACTOR?

[Industrial Toys]

I used an 8N here once loaned to me but never owned one. I was wondering if they had a Def lock. Not having one, would be a definite liability. I get the impression that few people realize the value of large wheels.

 

[jeff9366]

I have 13 acres of mostly woods and just enough grass for a push mower (no tractor mowing needed). The property has lots of water issues and trails that need constant maintenance. I also have 200 yard long, crushed limestone driveway with a large parking lot like area near my garage

I currently own a BX23S front loader / backhoe combo and it works really well but its a bit small for what I do. I purchased my BX in 2017 because I thought I wanted a small tractor that could fit into tight places. This happens on occasion but I am more often wishing for a machine with more loader/backhoe power. I almost exclusively use the font loader. No grass mowing.

My very near-term projects include digging a hole for a swimming pool, digging several ditches, driveway maintenance with 2A stone and digging a deep garage addition footer. If I had a machine that could do it, I would also dig up a few stumps around the house as needed. In the winter, I blow my driveway with a rear blade but at 200 yards, wet, heavy snow can be a challenge.

VIDEO: Kubota B26�1 VS Kubota B265� - YouTube


You should also consider Kubota's B26, the lightest of Kubota's "commercial" T-L-Bs.

VIDEO: Comparing Kubota TLB series tractors(B26, L47, M62) - YouTube


The fundamental importance of TRACTOR WEIGHT eludes many tractor shoppers. Heavier tractor weight is more important for most tractor applications than increased tractor horsepower. Bare tractor weight is a tractor specification easily found in sales brochures and web sites, readily comparable across tractor brands and tractor models, new and used.

Within subcompact and compact tractor categories, a significant tractor capability increase requires a bare tractor weight increase of 50%. It takes a 100% increase in bare tractor weight to elicit MY-OH-MY!

So you want to TRADE UP for a new Tractor? - TMT - YouTube


Five reasons owner/operators trade up from Subcompact Tractors:
More tractor weight.
More FEL lift capacity.
More ground clearance.
Three-range (3) HST (Lower LOW, Higher, HIGH) ~~ rather than two-range (2) HST.
Larger wheels and tires yield more tractive power pulling ground contact implements and logs, pushing a loader bucket into dirt and pushing snow. Larger wheels and tires permit heavier tractors to bridge holes, ruts and tree debris with less operator perturbation.

 

[rScotty]

No, this has nothing to do with you. He's been like this since day 1. At least one wall of text per day = Jeff. Gives him purpose. Same thing with preaching to people about putting in their location. And preaching about posters must use full and proper punctuation in every post(FOR RESPECT!).

Don't feel singled out. He's our poster child.

Slim, I think you forgot to mention "The Importance of Tractor Weight" along with "Location". So I'll make sure to add it just in case it gets overlooked....

I'm not one for putting anything into categories with exact definitions myself. I prefer thinking about what is unique and different for each poster rather than what is the same.

But it doesn't bother me when someone else does things differently. Live and let live or ignore; all the same diff.
rScotty

 

[Diggin It]

I prefer thinking about what is unique and different for each poster rather than what is the same.

That's something that some ONE doesn't seem to get. 'Course they don't seem to think there's anything out there besides orange either.

 

[/pine]

IMO, The OP seems to be missing the big picture with the rhetorical pasted comments...
Discussing all the logic of weight/traction when it comes to new (first time) tractor operators is a moot point for the most part...

Unless and until a new operator actually experiences a lack of traction while performing actual tasks they will simply not understand the significance...
A new operator may put many hours on a machine before they encounter a condition where the weight of the tractor makes a significant difference...

IMO, It's poor advice to recommend buying a heavier machine just because every once in a while an operator may encounter a task where a bigger heavier machine is better suited...

All the test driving and studying the technical specs of a tractor will never equate to actual seat time experience...

When it comes to compact tractors and correctly sized implements...The main difference between a bigger, heavier machine and the compact as it applies to traction is the time required to do the same exact work...

Advising someone to buy a big heavy machine just because every once in a while they may encounter a task where a bigger machine would do the work quicker...is just bad advice...

A new (first time) tractor owner should be aware of the majority of the work they intend to do and buy accordingly...and NOT buy a bigger machine because occasionally they have to take more time to complete a task that a bigger tractor could do in less time....

 

[jeff9366]

Multiple reasons owner/operators trade up from Subcompact Tractors:

More tractor weight.

More FEL lift capacity.

More ground clearance.

Three-range (3) HST (Lower LOW, Higher, HIGH) ~~ rather than two-range (2) HST.

Larger wheels and tires have a larger tire/tread "patch" in contact with the soil. Larger wheels and tires bridge small holes, ruts and tree debris maintaining traction, which stall subcompact tractors. As a result, larger wheels/tires yield more tractive power pulling ground contact implements and logs, pushing a loader bucket into dirt and pushing snow. Larger wheels and tires decrease operator perturbation operating over rough ground.

 

[jeff9366]

Ground clearance due to larger wheels and tires is the single greatest difference in tractor specs between (all brands) of Subcompact tractors and the lightest Compact tractors. Larger wheels and tires permit compact tractors to bridge holes, ruts and tree debris with less operator perturbation relative to subcompact tractors. One can mow a field faster with larger wheels and tires. One of two mph with larger wheels/tires will significantly reduce field mowing time.

 

[Ricn]

Small is well, small. BX and others in this class should be used in that manor least we break them or ourselves. My local tractor mechanic guy works on them lots saying, they come in very abused and often with little maintenance preformed. Yeah, there are those who use them hard without issues but maybe their the lucky ones? but I too have a use for a sub tractor as the big ones we have can be to big at times. As for all the posts what to buy what to buy, sub or compact, its my opinion there are as many salesman or dealers on this site as actual tractor owners and this fuels all the responses to the same old questions. Now, if my Wife would let me I'd go buy the sub compact today, BX maybe, LS MT-125 really has my interest as well, but no backhoe on either.

 

[jeff9366]

It is my opinion there are as many salesman or dealers on this site as actual tractor owners and this fuels all the responses to the same old questions.

From daily observation, outside of clearly identified ADVERTISERS, there is only one employed tractor professional posting on T-B-N regularly. There are, however, a large body of writers who use tractors on an almost daily basis, myself included.

 

[stevem5215]

I'm not a dealer and for sure I have different units running for different things. No one machine does it all well. And cost is a factor. Cheaper won't get you what a better more expensive unit can.

Here's my reply from another thread in here. Still applies to this one too.

A ZTR with a suspension seat is a minimum for a rough pasture cut. A ZTR with a full suspension system like a vehicle has is better yet. Balloon tires on some ZTR's also help but suspension is better. The new easy ride system from Toro is new this year and it adds suspension as an option (cheaper versions are available without of course). All that said, I have four mowers here. I have a Black Craftsman Professional model with a 24hp engine and the cheap Hydro gear K46 tranny that's not very good. But it has foot control and that's really a great feature one i highly recommend. It does a good job of actually cutting grass though. And it has a rear two bag catcher system that actually works very well except in wet grass. Damp ok but wet forget it due to clogs. It's been a good mower and i have it "on loan" to a friend during the summer months as he can barely walk these days so i let him use it and then get it back in the fall so i can suck up the leaves here. As for repairs, I replaced the transmission drive belt once and serviced the K46 tranny with new 5w-50 synthetic fluid (had the typical barely moving hydro problem) and have replaced the valve covers once (they were leaking oil) along with a couple of spark plugs once and a headlight socket and bulb once as they wear due to vibration. A new battery once too of course (still running that battery 8 years later due to keeping it on a tender in the winter months and topping the water up as needed).

I also have a Simplicity ZT 2500 24hp with front suspension only and a 48" fabricated deck with Gator blades and dual ZT 2800 transmissions. That setup was a great deal at only $3000 new (after $400 Simplicity rebate in the springtime). It cuts the grass very well I'd say and especially is better with those Gator blades as it handles heavy/tall grass dispersion better. It works better of course when the grass is dry and not even damp at all. The 24hp Briggs commercial engine is good and I've had that one for about 5 years now with the only issue being a bar that cracked that held the transmission mounting points (there's two of the exact same bars and one cracked). It broke on the 3rd year while under warranty but the bars were on Nationwide back order so i just took it to my favorite welding guy and he welded it up and it's not broken since. And the other replacement finally came and is sitting in a box in my garage (took 3 months to come in). That bar was a simple fix. Just 4 bolts hold it in and pulls out the bottom side. Otherwise that mower has had no issues at all. Runs good and has a EFI system of some type on it. The ride quality of this mower is good and was better than that of the Black Craftsman mower. It was an incremental improvement that was nice when i got it. The ZT2800 transmissions have been better and I've done a couple of services on them since they have drain and fill plugs along with spin on filters. (hence the reason to get these better transmissions) It does about 7mph full throttle across the field when cutting. (level no hills light loads on the mower deck when cutting) Otherwise at full speeds it's bumpy. ZTRs in general are bumpy ride cause you can go so fast. And hence why you buy one with suspension of some kind. It's important.

My third mower is also the newest. A Simplicity ZTR Citation XL 61" fab deck with a 27hp Briggs commercial engine and ZT 3400 transmissions. This one has full suspension front and rear and it'll do 11mph across the field. That's moving let me tell you. And it's easiest on the body without a doubt. I call it the Cadillac ride. It's really great to use. You can cut full throttle and at 61" you are really doing some damage to get done QUICKER. It probably has cut my cutting time in 1/2 to 2 hrs vs 4 hrs with other mower used. Previously i used a Ford 1900 with a 72" deck. That sounds like a great combination doesn't it ? I mean wow a 72" deck would seriously cut down cutting time. Nope not really. It can't cut things that fast. It was a 30hp diesel machine with a rear discharge deck. It left clippings more so than i liked to see on heavy grass and if I tried to cut with it fast it threw me all over the place and cut even worse. Nope, I loved having that tractor but it wasn't a great mowing machine like a ZTR gets you. Even the Black Craftsman cut quality was far better (I put Gator blades on it too). As a result the 1900 was gone last spring and in came the Citation to replace it. And it's been far better for my tastes (and the wife loves it too and saves her back for doing more fun things like tooth brushing the grout on the floor ! lol). So far it's been reliable too. Nothing yet but it's only on it's second year. Unlike the Craftsman that's on it's 12th year!

I also have another machine for cutting but it's just a "backup". I have a Steiner 420 AWD articulating sub compact tractor. It has a 48" mower deck and uses low pressure high flotation tires along with a criss-cross hydro drive system to not tear up the grass in the yard. I mostly use it for loader work (sub compact loader that handles about 700lbs max) and also i use a rotating brush to clear the driveway of snow in the winter. Advantage of it is that I don't use ANY salt on my driveway. It can clear snow down to the pavement and the sun clears the rest of it off. I have the cleanest driveway in the winter months here. It's always bare and dry by 10am. As for summer use, I have used it a couple times to cut the grass but that front mount deck just blows grass all over you i found. It's really annoying so i don't use it much. A mid deck blows stuff too but it's mostly behind you by the time it catches the wind. And at 10mph it never hits you! lol
The Steiner isn't new and is a 1994 model with a Onan 20 Performer engine. It's very reliable. I have had a few problems with it over the years I've had it. MOstly simple things like plug wires and new spark plugs along with a charging problem with the Molex connections they used back in 94' which weren't very long term reliable and corroded due to their unprotected nature in this application (auto type connections weren't used in tractors till later years probably due to this reason) But, mostly it's been reliable for me. I have the hydro system serviced every 5 years or so and use only the STeiner hydro fluid as it's proven to be reliable without issues or questionable fluid life like other manufacturers supplied for this application. I can't really complain at all about it. It wasn't a cheap machine to buy but it's been a good machine. And where else can you have the cleanest driveway in the neighborhood ? Without a lot of work? I can have it cleared in the winter in 15 minutes. 400ft plus turnaround area at top. That's big.

So, all that said. I highly recommend a ZTR. And get a ZTR with suspension. One without it isn't going to save any time cutting and you might as well just buy a Home Depot or Lowe's tractor. As for price, more $$ gets you more machine. It's worth it IMO. Same holds true for regular tractors too. And always buy one step up from what you think you need. Bigger never hurts. Smaller does!

Steve

 

[rScotty]

Steve, that's a great article. With that many gas engines sitting idle between jobs I'm curious what gasoline you use and if you have any special tips on gasoline and gasoline engines.
Thanks,
rScotty

 

[stevem5215]

rScotty,
I don't use any special gasoline. Whatever they have at the local "GetGo" (non branded but top tier) unleaded and sometimes Premium unleaded. I don't add fuel stabilizer regularly either but do add it sometimes as well as some neutralizing ethanol products but usually not on those either. No real special tips. I do have a snowmobile and i do drain the fuel tank throughout the year as i always run premium in it and usually non ethanol premium if it's available when out of town. I then siphon off that gas slowly during the summer months and then refill it in the fall time with fresh. That snowmobile is fuel injected so gas that's old can be a factor. Hence why i keep it clean.

Steve

 

[jeff9366]

BX or B??

Property is 8 acres. Flat but bumpy old farmland which hasnt been cared for in 2-3 years.

BX series tractor are best regarded as wonderful lawn mowers with the ability to do light landscaping tasks. Kubota sells bazillions of BX tractors yearly and many owners are completely happy with them on one or two acres.

Minimal 9" ground clearance can make working in woodland difficult. If one wheel drops into a 4-1/2" burrow or rut and a second wheel goes up on a 4-1/2" mound or tree limb you may be stranded. Because of low ground clearance, HST cooling fan under the tractor is vulnerable to ground damage. Those who take BX tractors into woodlands often armor underneath. Several venders sell BX undercarriage armor kits.

Subcompacts have two-range (2) HST transmissions. In HIGH range your max ground speed over uneven ground will be around six mph. You may find traversing eight acres with 400 pound to 500 pound bucket loads tedious at six mph.

Slightly larger 'Compact tractors' of 1,600 - 1,800 pounds bare tractor weight have larger wheels and tires. Larger wheels yield greater ground clearance, usually at least 12", and a much smoother ride over rough ground. With 12" ground clearance you can tractor cultivate a garden until crop reaches 12" to 14" height. Compact tractors have greater FEL lift capacity than Subcompacts. Subcompacts generally draw 48" wide implements. Compact tractors generally draw 54" or 60" implements. Allowing for a 5" overlap in use, a considerable improvement over 48" implements.

Five reasons owner/operators trade up from a BX:
More tractor weight.
More FEL lift capacity.
Greater ground clearance
Three-range (3) HST rather than two-range (2) HST on BX. (Lower LOW, Higher, HIGH)
More tractor engine horsepower to operate PTO powered implements.

For eight bumpy acres consider a Kubota LX2610.

VIDEOS: Kubota BX Series VS. B Series - YouTube

Kubota B265 VS Kubota LX261 - Are they the same? - YouTube

Thanks everyone. Looks like the b wins out. Now to decide between the 23 and 26. Thinking ill start with the fel and mmm. Trying to decide between a ballast or just going with a box blade.

 

[jeff9366]

Small tractor wheels drop into holes and ruts, disrupting tractor traction. Larger wheels and tires supplied on heavier tractors bridge many holes and ruts, increasing traction. Larger wheels and tires permit higher operating speed over uneven ground by reducing implement bounce and operator perturbation.

 

[Williy]

Repetitively typing almost the same advice on the Topic: SUBCOMPACT or COMPACT TRACTOR? is not that interesting.

I am going to accumulate some well considered, well punctuated standard replies, then refine the advice.

Everyone is welcome to contribute.

Have you looked at the Yanmar tractors?? 4x4 10 year warranty very dependable made tractors for John Deere for over 20 years? JD still
uses Yanmar diesel engines read some place that over 75% of tractors have Yanmar diesel engines

willy

 

[jeff9366]

Primarily I need a tractor for mowing, garden work and then snow removal on the gravel portion of our (long) driveway in the winter. A much smaller percentage of the time I would use a tractor for tree work and moving/pulling collection tanks of sap.

All of the tractor applications you have specified call for Three Point Hitch mounted implements or Front End Loader (FEL) work. None of the tractor applications you have listed call for a Backhoe. Forget the Backhoe, instead budget for a heavier, more stable tractor.


We have a 30 acre property with about 8 acres of lawn and former horse pasture (recently brush hogged). The remainder is hilly forest that I am starting to manage for timber and maple syrup production.

Subcompact tractors are best regarded as wonderful lawn mowers with the ability to do light landscaping tasks. The practical top speed of a subcompact tractor over uneven ground is 5 - mph. You will find low mowing speed of perhaps 3-mph ( 1-1/2 acre per hour. ) tedious mowing eight acres regularly. Small tires on a subcompact tractor yield a very rough ride over uneven ground. Former horse pasture qualifies as uneven ground.

Subcompact tractors with a Mid Mount Mower have about 3" or ground clearance with mower attached, 9" ground clearance with mower removed. Removing/replacing a Mid Mount Mower, with its front PTO shaft, is a tedious, sweaty task. Subcompacts have two-range (2) HST transmissions. Subcompacts generally draw 48" wide implements.

Ground clearance due to larger wheels and tires is the single greatest difference in tractor specs between (all brands) of Subcompact tractors and the lightest Compact tractors. Larger wheels and tires permit compact tractors to bridge holes, ruts and tree debris with less operator and implement perturbation relative to subcompact tractors. One can mow a field faster with larger wheels and tires. One or two mph with larger wheels/tires will significantly reduce field mowing time.

Compact tractors of 1,600 - 1,800 pounds bare tractor weight have larger wheels and tires. Larger wheels yield greater ground clearance, usually at least 12", and a much smoother ride over rough ground. With 12" ground clearance you can tractor cultivate a garden until crop reaches 12" to 14" height.

Compact tractors have greater FEL lift capacity than Subcompacts and usually have three-range (3) HST transmissions. Compact tractors generally draw 54" or 60" implements. Allowing for a 6" overlap in use, a considerable improvement over 48" implements.

MOWING CALCULATOR: Mowing Calcuator | How many acres can I mow in an hour

Five reasons owner/operators trade up from a Subcompact Tractor:
More tractor weight.
More FEL lift capacity.
Greater ground clearance
Three-range (3) HST rather than two-range (2) HST.
(Lower LOW, Higher, HIGH) (Higher ground speed.)
More tractor engine horsepower to operate wider PTO powered implements.


VIDEO:

Like many new to tractors, you are thinking too small/light.

I recommend buying a 3,500 pound to 4,000 pound bare weight tractor, 66" wide, typified by Kubota's MX series. This is a high volume compact tractor category; every tractor manufacturer has 2-5 models in mid-weight tractors.

A Kubota L3560, with standard adjustable rear wheel stance, would also be safe.

You will be much safer working thirty acres of hilly forest.

When considering a tractor purchase bare tractor weight first, tractor horsepower second, rear axle width third (stability), rear wheel/tire ballast fourth (stability and traction).

BUY ENOUGH TRACTOR.​

 

[Blue Mule]

I started shopping subcompacts. I was primarily attracted to the price, and being able to get a TLB package for around $20k. The more I thought about it, the more concerned I became about the subcompact being able to do the jobs I needed.

Our box blade is a 5' model. Our old New Holland TC29 pulled it but when the box got full of material, especially on a hill, the tires would begin to slip a little. There is NO WAY a subcompact with half the machine weight would have pulled that box blade through a load of gravel. I also became worried about the tip over hazard, as subcompacts are very narrow and have tiny wheels and tires. The lift capacity is also a worry...typically you're looking at much less real ability to carry weight in the bucket. Bottom line is, the small size has advantages for homeowners with an acre or less, but if you want to do any real work or homesteading it's just not ideal.

I ended up moving up to a 40 HP compact and it is working out well. It's certainly NOT overkill for our 3 acres...it's often on the ragged edge of being adequate. But it works well and I'm so glad that I decided to forego the backhoe in order to get a bigger and more useable tractor. Our property is only a few acres adjacent to a couple more acres that my parents own, but I can't imagine trying to do the jobs that constantly come up around here with a subcompact.

 

[jeff9366]

I have a newish (200 hours) Yanmar SA434 that I frequently dig with.
Problem is with a full scoop of dirt I can't drive up a steep slope!

Are the Yanmar's rear tires turning without the tractor moving forward, creating rear tire ruts?
The burdened bucket unloads weight from your rear wheels/tires. Do you have Three Point Hitch counterbalance mounted when attempting to drive up a steep slope with a bucket of material?

Or, the alternative, are your rear wheels/tires not turning?
Are your rear tires correctly inflated after 200 hours?
Are the rims turning within the tires due to low inflation?
Or your two range HST transmission is pooping out.


Your Yanmar 434 is an 1,800 pound bare weight, subcompact tractor. This is the lightest category of Three Point Hitch tractor. Tractor weight mostly defines tractor capability.

There is little you can do to upgrade any subcompact tractor's performance. More engine horsepower, small wheels/tires and a two-range HST transmission is a zero sum.

Research 3,600 to 4,000 pound bare weight compact Yanmar tractors. A 4-WD tractor with this weight is suitable for cropping five to fifteen acres. The Loader will lift at least one ton.

Five reasons owner/operators trade up from a Subcompact Tractor:
More tractor weight.
More FEL lift capacity.
More ground clearance
Three-range (3) HST (Lower LOW, Higher, HIGH) rather than two-range (2) HST.
Larger wheels and tires yield more tractive power pulling ground contact implements and logs, pushing a loader bucket into dirt and pushing snow. Larger wheels and tires permit heavier tractors to bridge holes, ruts and tree debris with less implement and operator perturbation.

The fundamental importance of TRACTOR WEIGHT eludes many tractor shoppers. Heavier tractor weight is more important for most tractor applications than increased tractor horsepower. Bare tractor weight is a tractor specification easily found in sales brochures and web sites, readily comparable across tractor brands and tractor models, new and used.

I have owned three tractors. The first was a 1,900 pound subcompact "learner" without a Loader. The second a 2,200 pound tractor-loader package with 33-horsepower and three-range HST transmission. The third, my 3,700 pound Kubota L3560, is tractor nirvana in my north Florida conditions. Had I early read a thread philosophizing on tractor weight it would have stimulated tractor weight research and I would have omitted purchase of tractor #2, which proved too light for my applications. I purchased tractor #2 seduced by the allure of increased horsepower.

 

[5030]

If the rear tires are shorter than I am tall and I can see easily over the hood, it's not for me

 

[mo1]

Then comes Box Blade or Regular Grader Blade.

I would vote for "both" as I use them for different uses. A box blade is for leveling material, a rear blade is for scraping material.

If you wanted a debate, other than "what brand of tractor do I get?," the most common topics of debate generally involve what tires to get, whether or not to fill them, and if so, what to fill them with. Cab vs. open station is probably next, followed by purchasing a large compact like a Kubota MX with hydrostiatic transmission vs. one of the smaller full-sized utility tractor with a gear transmission.

IMO the term "subcompact" is a misnomer and just a marketing term...I've never seen any industry standards that discern the terms...
Any tractor smaller than what is typically considered a full size machine (think 9n etc...) is a "compact" tractor...some are more compact that others...

Methinks the term subcompact was coined to prevent them from being called "mini-tractors"

There are no hard and fast definitions, and I would agree the terms come from what group of buyers the tractor is marketed toward, but here are the general features today:

A subcompact tractor generally has:
- Category 0 or limited category 1 3-point hitch
- A hydrostatic transmission only
- Less than 1000 pounds of loader lift capacity
- No more than 26 engine HP
- Rear tires of 27" diameter or less
- Dry weight of 1750 lb or less
- Belly mower and front/mid PTO option
- Marketed toward residential buyers

A compact tractor generally has:
- Category 1 3-point hitch
- A hydrostatic transmission with sometimes the option of a gear transmission
- About 900 to 2000 pounds of loader lift capacity
- Bevel gear MFWD front axle
- Between 25 and about 60 engine HP and an engine displacement of 150 CID (2.5 liters) or less
- A dry weight of roughly 1750 to 4000 pounds for an open station unit
- Rear tires larger than 27" in diameter
- For US market models, rear PTO is 540 RPM only

A utility tractor generally has:
- Category 2 or 3 3-point hitch
- No hydrostatic transmission
- 50 to less than 200 engine HP and a displacement of between 150 and less than 450 CID
- Planetary gear MFWD or 2WD front axle
- Over a ton of loader lift capacity
- A dry weight of over 4000 lbs for an open station unit
- No belly mower
- Rear PTO only (1 3/8" diameter only)
- No duals
- Able to be fitted with a loader
- Marketed toward agricultural buyers

An 8N Ford would probably be considered a compact today. It is about the same physical size as a Kubota L or Deere 4 series, weighs roughly 2500 pounds, has a category 1 3-point hitch, and has a 120 CID 30 HP engine.