jyoutz
Super Star Member
The real key is to build drainage into the road bed, either with ditches and wing ditches or crowns and rolling dips.
Packing/sealing a gravel road after 'resurfacing' / land plane
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jyoutz
Super Star Member
In the Forest Service one low cost technique we use is building rolling dips and wing ditches into the road profile during construction. But it takes a small dozer to do this. A road constructed with these features will hold up for many years with minimal maintenance.
Lavender Valley
Member
Here in New Zealand we us Basalt stone on roads and it ends up over the side or filling up the drains down the side of the road. We add a 20% lime chip in the load for problem roads, bad subgrade or steep, and spread that. I grade roads/driveways with my box blade and having tilt in my hydraulics I can crown the road, have to be quick as after a few passes the lime is doing its job of locking the stone into place.
mx842
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Gravel driveways are always going to need work as time goes by. You can pack all you want and there will always be a couple spots that will hold water and cause problems. My driveway is roughly 3/4's of a mile that drops in elevation 10' from the house to the main road. When I built the road the only place I could put in my driveway was through a swamp like area that was low and always held water. The first 1000' was a real bear and it took a lot of material to just get it to where I could back a truck in to dump using railroad stone. One spot it took 12 tandem loads of stone just to get 40'. I decided I had to come up with some other plan because this was getting expensive really quick. I bought a small dump truck and went to the local cinder block company where they had all the broken cinderblocks anyone would ever need. Once I started bringing these in things went a little quicker and I finally got up to where I was going to build my house, I covered the cinder blocks with bank gravel, and it was good enough to get in and out while they were working on my house. When a really heavy truck like a concrete truck came in, I would have to dress the road up a little before another came in.
This went on the whole time the work was going on and by the time the house was finished I could even get my wife's car up to the house without it bottoming out and not drag parts out from under it. Once all the heavy trucks were all gone, I covered it again with about 4" of bank gravel and left it that way for a couple years but every 6 months or so I would have to put more in certain spots to fill in potholes that would form in spots.
I knew this road was not going to be a once and done kind of deal and that I would have to work on it from time to time. Bank gravel is wonderful stuff but the problem with the material that was available was that it contained very little clay with mostly sand mixed with the gravel. The sand would allow water to seep into the base material and potholes would form quite often. I tried 21 A's that had a lot of rock dust mixed in and that helped but never sealed it off like it should.
Also, rainwater would wash out several places and I would have to add more every 6 months or so. I finally decided to flatten out the grade in several spots for 100' or so then let it fall again. This helped probably more than anything else I did with the whole road. That is until I found out about crushed concrete. Up to the time I started using this I would have to put down several loads a year to keep the road in shape. I covered the whole driveway with about 4" of crushed concrete and I have only had to add more about 2 times in the past 10 years. All I do is drag it once a year to knock the down the center to flatten it out again and I'm done, one trip down and one trip up and I'm done.
A gravel drive is always going to need some work in one place or another because every time you leave the drive you are going to take a part of your driveway along with you and it will need to be replaced.
This went on the whole time the work was going on and by the time the house was finished I could even get my wife's car up to the house without it bottoming out and not drag parts out from under it. Once all the heavy trucks were all gone, I covered it again with about 4" of bank gravel and left it that way for a couple years but every 6 months or so I would have to put more in certain spots to fill in potholes that would form in spots.
I knew this road was not going to be a once and done kind of deal and that I would have to work on it from time to time. Bank gravel is wonderful stuff but the problem with the material that was available was that it contained very little clay with mostly sand mixed with the gravel. The sand would allow water to seep into the base material and potholes would form quite often. I tried 21 A's that had a lot of rock dust mixed in and that helped but never sealed it off like it should.
Also, rainwater would wash out several places and I would have to add more every 6 months or so. I finally decided to flatten out the grade in several spots for 100' or so then let it fall again. This helped probably more than anything else I did with the whole road. That is until I found out about crushed concrete. Up to the time I started using this I would have to put down several loads a year to keep the road in shape. I covered the whole driveway with about 4" of crushed concrete and I have only had to add more about 2 times in the past 10 years. All I do is drag it once a year to knock the down the center to flatten it out again and I'm done, one trip down and one trip up and I'm done.
A gravel drive is always going to need some work in one place or another because every time you leave the drive you are going to take a part of your driveway along with you and it will need to be replaced.
aircommuter
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This is where the proper fabric used correctly could have helped. Second choice would be post tension slab. $$. Dragging the center segregates the material and removes the crown.
mx842
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I agree with the fabric part, but you still need to get down to some solid ground and in this case at least 3' of material would have had to be removed to get there. This would have required an excavator which I didn't have. All I had at the time was a Cat 955 K. It did have wide tracks but as it would walk over the soft spots it was worthless when trying to move any of the soggy material. I had no choice but to try and bridge over it and hope for the best. As with most of my projects I have to use what I have. That first 40' was the most expensive. That railroad ballast was worthless, but I already ordered it and 10 of the loads were already on the road and they wouldn't call them back. Once I switched over to the crushed cinder blocks it was a piece of cake. I know, not perfect but it was all I could do at the time, and it all worked out in the end. That was 32 years ago, and I could land a 747 on it today. 
aircommuter
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Fabric can reduce the amount of bridging material. We found that when 4-5’ thickness of bridging was needed we could get stabilization with 2’. Proper fabric and proper material. We always had to obtain 95% relative Proctor and soils engineer approval.
JRH02
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Here, all the parcels (mostly 40 ac or greater, off grid) are privately owned and access is via an ancient logging trail with easements and a few branches/intersections through various parcels. We are the only full time residents which means everyone else shows up a few times a year and many never at all. The age old cooperative agreement is that all land owners maintain the road on/through their parcel. You can imagine how that works out in reality especially on BIA set aside and State owned parcels - it doesn't happen. By nature the road is rough, steep and curvy with a few switchbacks in moderate to heavily treed land. No one is going to spend any money let alone remove a downed tree or even get out to throw off a few stones.
The point I'm making is that the better the road the faster the vehicles drive. In addition, the better the road the more chance that city people will try to travel the trail with their 2WD cars/whatever leaving a trail of plastic and stones kicked out of the road base from spinning. This also happens with jerks driving the trail who refuse to lock hubs and use 4wd which should actually be done year round when climbing. I don't even need to bring up ATVs and dirt bikes do I?
My solution? LATERALS for drainage. They are really important and functional for road longevity and are my version of a reverse speed bump for rural use and control of A$$****s. And I never put one at right angles to the road. I put them at least enough angle so that on a given axle, one side is out as the other enters. This works really good to keep things at about 10mph max or they'll lose it and hit a tree or end up somewhere down the canyon.
Yup, it takes about 20 minutes to get 2.5 miles to the nearest maintained county road. It's actually a very pretty drive.
The point I'm making is that the better the road the faster the vehicles drive. In addition, the better the road the more chance that city people will try to travel the trail with their 2WD cars/whatever leaving a trail of plastic and stones kicked out of the road base from spinning. This also happens with jerks driving the trail who refuse to lock hubs and use 4wd which should actually be done year round when climbing. I don't even need to bring up ATVs and dirt bikes do I?
My solution? LATERALS for drainage. They are really important and functional for road longevity and are my version of a reverse speed bump for rural use and control of A$$****s. And I never put one at right angles to the road. I put them at least enough angle so that on a given axle, one side is out as the other enters. This works really good to keep things at about 10mph max or they'll lose it and hit a tree or end up somewhere down the canyon.
Yup, it takes about 20 minutes to get 2.5 miles to the nearest maintained county road. It's actually a very pretty drive.
paulsharvey
Super Member
So, there is a Right way to build a road, and the cold hard reality of money, and what works to make a functional, 4 season driveway. For a truly one and done approach, I would spec, 12" of stabalized subgrade LBR40, density 98%, 6" of limerock road base, 98%; remove any organic or elastic clay 24" Below subgrade, and back fill with clean A2 sand, 98%. All of that, and that's just the road bed, beyond that, I would spec 4 ft of grossed shoulder, sloping away from roadway at 6%, then a 4:1 ditch, with an invert approx at the bottom of the subgrade; 15" min cross drains, ect.
Then we have home owner reality, and budget. I would strip any highly organic or pumping clay, compact, add 6" of roadbase, crown; have approx 4 ft of shoulder sloping away from the drive, and a ditch with an invert below the. bottom of the base. I still would use 15" pipe for drainage crossings, not 4 or 6".
It's the 80/20 rule. The 2nd example, you very well might get settling in some areas, or minor rutting; and you will add material as needed. If you have really bad ground water, and or fat clays, maybe a geotextile and some rip rap, or just figure on adding additional base every 3 years.
The "Right" approach, just isn't realistic for most rural properties
Then we have home owner reality, and budget. I would strip any highly organic or pumping clay, compact, add 6" of roadbase, crown; have approx 4 ft of shoulder sloping away from the drive, and a ditch with an invert below the. bottom of the base. I still would use 15" pipe for drainage crossings, not 4 or 6".
It's the 80/20 rule. The 2nd example, you very well might get settling in some areas, or minor rutting; and you will add material as needed. If you have really bad ground water, and or fat clays, maybe a geotextile and some rip rap, or just figure on adding additional base every 3 years.
The "Right" approach, just isn't realistic for most rural properties
paulsharvey
Super Member
You Do Want the roadbed/driving surface wider than vehicle, so, at 12 ft driving surface would be a real min, and for many reasons, you want a min clear opening of 16 ft, from any obstacles or drop offs. That allows passing, larger vehicles, deliveries, and now, many emergency services state they won't go down a drive with less than 16 ft clear width.
A 12 ft drive, with 8 ft total shoulder, vehicles can come to a stop and a slow pass.
A 12 ft drive, with 8 ft total shoulder, vehicles can come to a stop and a slow pass.
paulsharvey
Super Member
Also on pipe drainage, you want your cross drains to extend Beyond the shoulders, to the swale area. People tend to buy to short of pipes. 20 ft is pretty narrow for a 12 ft drive, 24 ft is better.
Pipes are sized for around a 25 year storm, and not for daily rains. If a pipe is half full on an afternoon rain, it's way undersized.
Pipes are sized for around a 25 year storm, and not for daily rains. If a pipe is half full on an afternoon rain, it's way undersized.
paulsharvey
Super Member
If the road is built right, and drainage right, and you Still have issues, likely you need to look at a chip seal, concrete, or asphalt surface.
Geotextiles are generally a cop out, and don't actually fix the main problem. That doesn't mean they are bad, or don't have a place. Some places, true muck removal can go down 20/40/80 ft, and that's not economically viable. So, in those cases, a geotextile, and a graded rock, can be used to bridge over the unsuitable material. The catch is, it will still settle over the years, as that muck decays and subsides. In that case, you add more material on top as needed.
Geotextiles are generally a cop out, and don't actually fix the main problem. That doesn't mean they are bad, or don't have a place. Some places, true muck removal can go down 20/40/80 ft, and that's not economically viable. So, in those cases, a geotextile, and a graded rock, can be used to bridge over the unsuitable material. The catch is, it will still settle over the years, as that muck decays and subsides. In that case, you add more material on top as needed.
paulsharvey
Super Member
Has the OP been back since the top of the thread? Pictures of both the wash outs, general topography, as well as the existing material, and the material he is importing would be helpful.
In my mind, I think likely, the trouble areas is on the side of a hill, and he doesn't have a hillside swale, and then cross drains to dump that hillside water to the embankment side? Or, he doesn't have the hillside swale, and he's getting seepage, and basically his road bed is staying loose and saturated, and he thinks it's a compaction issue?
Always remember, you can't compact dust or mud. Moisture levels are key in getting compaction. If it just is a wet season, and the drainage is on point, you can place the material wet, compact to the best of your ability, and Stay the Heck off it, as it drys, and it will get hard.
In my mind, I think likely, the trouble areas is on the side of a hill, and he doesn't have a hillside swale, and then cross drains to dump that hillside water to the embankment side? Or, he doesn't have the hillside swale, and he's getting seepage, and basically his road bed is staying loose and saturated, and he thinks it's a compaction issue?
Always remember, you can't compact dust or mud. Moisture levels are key in getting compaction. If it just is a wet season, and the drainage is on point, you can place the material wet, compact to the best of your ability, and Stay the Heck off it, as it drys, and it will get hard.
OP
Dadnatron
Veteran Member
I just purchased this property, and the road has been ignored. It looks like an original gravel on topsoil road put in 50 or more years ago. Probably had some gravel added a time or two over the years. The road itself currently is LOWER than the adjacent grass. That is why I am rebuilding it. I'm going to get it cut and smoothed, then I'd like to pack it. Then fabric followed by 2s then crusher run with fines. I'll probably be adding roughly 6-8" when its all complete.
But I've always worked my roads with a land plane and always tried to redress and pack them immediately. The gravel has always stayed in place better as well as wash boarded far less, with a packed rather than 'loose' surface.
I'm not certain on the grade of the North face, but its 'enough' that a smooth roller would be hard pressed making it up the hill alone. I'm looking for either a tow pneumatic or a tow vibratory type of implement. And I think I'd rather go with a pneumatic packer with a box into which I can put a bunch of gravel for weight. I just can't find anything at all in the Indiana/KY/OH general area. Closest is a 'forest find' in GA, which I'd look at, if it was closer or in better shape for a road trip.
I've built several farm roads in the area on my previous farm. One road, I had a scraper, took it down to clay, repacked it with a LARGE padded vibratory, because they one they were supposed to send me broke down, so they sent me a monster. Worked great, and that road will be there forever. However it was a lot of work and for a 'farm road' it was overkill. I also put in a couple 'scrape the topsoil then fabric and CSB' and followed that about a year later with DGA. Those roads were equal to the dug out road in functionality for me over the years. I'm a believer in fabric, as I don't know what its currently set on, and I know there are some 'soft spots'. Copout or not, its an easy fix on everything I've used it for and its better than fighting the road in the future, IMO.
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paulsharvey
Super Member
Ah, that makes a lot of sense. I was under the impression you had a wash out area, that you were ripping and repairing regularly.
Does the 6-8" of new material put the new surface above the adjacent grass areas.
I've never heard of a road base, fabric, road base sandwich. Really, with the 6-8" on top, I dont think "scabbing" will be an issue, so it should work.
jyoutz
Super Star Member
I think with the fabric, material depth, and crusher fines you’re planning, this will make a good road and probably need packing only once if you have a good mix of gravel and fines. I installed my roads about 6 years ago and had the road contractor pack it with a large motorized roller. The fines set the roadbed and it’s like concrete now. I’ve never repacked it and only grade it a few times a year to pull loose gravel from the ditches and shoulders back onto the road. A well constructed road bed doesn’t need repacking, just occasional refreshing by topping with more gravel.
OP
Dadnatron
Veteran Member
6-8" should put the grade about 4" above the adjacent grass at the shoulders. The 'grade' part of the road runs straight downhill about 100yds, so I have to have a good crown on it.
jyoutz
Super Star Member
Also since you have a downhill run, think about building in a rolling dip into the roadbed before placing gravel. This is the key to managing water and materials on a down hill roadbed.
Rolling Dip / Water Bar — After Wildfire
LouNY
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Those nice fancy rolling dips will work but it would take quite a few of them on a steep driveway and the crest would actually make the grade even steeper. Also they would be hard to maintain without a dozer. A backblade or box blade would have a hard time maintaining them.
A simple water cut is much easier and less expensive to put in.
A simple water cut is much easier and less expensive to put in.
jyoutz
Super Star Member
We cut them into forest dirt and gravel roads routinely and they last years without maintenance except for surface grading. They don’t make the road steeper because they are gradual dips that you “roll” into and out of over about 100’ length, not water bars that are steep bumps in a short distance. The reason why the dips last is they are cut into the ground before the surface gravel is applied. We maintain these roads with road graders and they have no problem; a box or rear blade on a tractor would not even notice the dip as different than the rest of the flat road surface. See the second video that shows how gradual you can make these, but they still work.
