Anybody here have much experience with either 3 point or tow backhoe?

[rScotty]

After reading the many replies (Many Thanks!) I have decided to look for a backhoe with a thumb that I can attach to a sub frame. It looks like the tow behind diggers are just way too light for the ground I have here and 3 point units are too risky.
Looking at my tractor I can see how to attach a sub frame unit such that it will not put the kind of load on the tractor that causes breakage.
In the mean time I'll just rent a mini excavator with a thumb for the places it can be used. The thumb is a super time saver when dealing with the kind of rocks we have.
I'm pretty sure that once I start to seriously look for a small add on hoe I'll be able to find one at a price I can afford.
Thanks Again Everybody,
Eric

Agree. Having been where you are headed, the 3pt backhoe is OK if you are careful. The pull behind is too light.

What you are describing is a pretty common evolution for tractor guys. I see that lots of us started with a compact tractor&FEL then eventually added a 3pt backhoe before ending up with either a newer TLB or mini.

My old 3pt backhoe sat unused for a couple of years after we got the TLB. Then one day an old buddy asked if it would fit his tractor..... so he used it a few years and then FFWD another ten years and I noticed that old 3pt hoe sitting unused in his barn while he was playing with his new TLB. He eventually passed it along to a neighbor.

rScotty

 

[etpm]

I’ve seen some mini excavators in the 10k range. I think if you had one you’d be impressed and kick yourself for not doing it sooner. I have a Deere 410 and a 4.5 ton mini excavator. The Deere will out muscle the mini but for everything else the mini is way better.

I rented a mini with a thumb years ago to do some ditch digging. That's how I know how useful the thumb is and how much they tear up lawns and such. Even my Case 580CK backhoe is easier on the ground than a rubber tracked mini excavator.
Eric

 

[ovrszd]

I’ve seen some mini excavators in the 10k range. I think if you had one you’d be impressed and kick yourself for not doing it sooner. I have a Deere 410 and a 4.5 ton mini excavator. The Deere will out muscle the mini but for everything else the mini is way better.

I don't need a mini but I sure want one to compliment my Ford 555.

 

[etpm]

I think that "doing the math" will lead to the conclusion that renting is cheaper than owning every time, for every implement, and for every job. That's simple enough, but clearly not right.

If it was, we wouldn't need to have compact tractors, do it yourselfers, tailgate parties, or TBN.

I always suspected that math was wrong; now I know why.
rScotty

When I put in my septic system I bought an old Case 580CK backhoe for 5 grand. That was about 15 years ago. My neighbor tried his best to convince me to rent one. I still have the 580 and I still do work with it. But it is really big when working in close quarters. And the bucket is 2 feet wide. And it doesn't have a thumb. I know, I can buy or make a narrow bucket, and I can buy or make a thumb. But it will still be too big for lots of the places I need a hoe for.
Eric

 

[PILOON]

While not a pro, I've operated all 3.

Typical tractor backhoe, small tracked hoe's, mid sized and large tracked hoes.
I owned a small towed hoe as well.
They all have their place.
My 'toe hoe' was called a 'cricket' as it hopped around as it moved.

That 'cricket' tow hoe could actually be quite a performer once U learned its tricks.
It was great for trenching, like pipe lines and electric burial and shone to trench for hedges.
The main downside was displacement otherwise it was quite powerful considering mine only had a 5 hp motor. I actually more than a few times extracted almost yard sized rocks with it.
You develop/learn techniques as you progress.
Heck I even learned how to 'hop' over a trench that I had dug.
The biggest downside is the work radius as U can't swing 180 deg's nor load a truck.
You are limited to stacking each side of that trench you dig and U don't have the capability of easily backfilling your trench.
Mini's shine as they always have a blade that serves for stability but also is excellent for backfilling.

All in all each one is lots of fun to operate, occasionally, as I'd go nuts doing that 40 hrs/wk.

 

[ovrszd]

When I put in my septic system I bought an old Case 580CK backhoe for 5 grand. That was about 15 years ago. My neighbor tried his best to convince me to rent one. I still have the 580 and I still do work with it. But it is really big when working in close quarters. And the bucket is 2 feet wide. And it doesn't have a thumb. I know, I can buy or make a narrow bucket, and I can buy or make a thumb. But it will still be too big for lots of the places I need a hoe for.
Eric

Six years ago I bought a Ford 555 TLB for $6,500. I spent $1,500 fixing minor things. Since that time we've built a new house and shop on our farm. My hoe owes me nothing. Has a dry parking spot in the machine shed. I doubt I'll ever sell it. spent two days on it last week doing work in the timber.

I'd like a mini to supplement the TLB. But so far I can't justify the $15K that it would take to buy one that would satisfy me.

 

[4570Man]

I don't need a mini but I sure want one to compliment my Ford 555.

If I had to pick between selling my KX040 or Deere 410 the Deere is finding a new home. The mini is my favorite digger I’ve ever had.

 

[4570Man]

I rented a mini with a thumb years ago to do some ditch digging. That's how I know how useful the thumb is and how much they tear up lawns and such. Even my Case 580CK backhoe is easier on the ground than a rubber tracked mini excavator.
Eric

The mini isn’t bad on the grass if you know what you’re doing. I cleared all of this brush off the yard with my mini. As soft as it was my 420 would have been far worse. And that one set of ruts was from the lift not my mini. A skid steer on the other hand is brutal on grass and there’s no way around it.

 

[ovrszd]

If I had to pick between selling my KX040 or Deere 410 the Deere is finding a new home. The mini is my favorite digger I’ve ever had.

Last week I drove my 555 3 miles to the local Cemetary and put in a driveway culvert for them. I'm selfish. I'd keep both.

 

[rScotty]

If you had taken a mini 3 miles you would still have been back in time for Christmas. The 555 probably carried the culvert as well.
I just put in an 8 foot concrete culvert on the far end of our property. The JD310 carried it half a mile and put it into place without really noticing the weight. 4500 lbs.

 

[4570Man]

Last week I drove my 555 3 miles to the local Cemetary and put in a driveway culvert for them. I'm selfish. I'd keep both.

I wish excavators on wheels were more of a thing. I’d sacrifice getting stuck worse for speed of moving around. Better yet just get one of each. The 410 will move faster than the mini, the 410 will carry gravel in the front bucket and the 410 will out muscle the mini which really isn’t fair since it’s twice the weight. But the mini is just so much better. It’s much smoother and more precise, the controls are better and less tiring, the buckets has a quick coupler the change buckets, it has a hydraulic thumb and the visibility is a lot better not sitting right behind the boom.

 

[ovrszd]

I wish excavators on wheels were more of a thing. I’d sacrifice getting stuck worse for speed of moving around. Better yet just get one of each. The 410 will move faster than the mini, the 410 will carry gravel in the front bucket and the 410 will out muscle the mini which really isn’t fair since it’s twice the weight. But the mini is just so much better. It’s much smoother and more precise, the controls are better and less tiring, the buckets has a quick coupler the change buckets, it has a hydraulic thumb and the visibility is a lot better not sitting right behind the boom.

From the mid 80s thru early 00s I spent some time in S Korea. That's where I saw my first excavator on wheels. I also saw them in Germany. Korea is where I saw my first mini ex. Very popular there in limited space. Which is all of Korea.

Yep, I definitely want a mini.

 

[ptsg]

I wish excavators on wheels were more of a thing. I’d sacrifice getting stuck worse for speed of moving around. Better yet just get one of each. The 410 will move faster than the mini, the 410 will carry gravel in the front bucket and the 410 will out muscle the mini which really isn’t fair since it’s twice the weight. But the mini is just so much better. It’s much smoother and more precise, the controls are better and less tiring, the buckets has a quick coupler the change buckets, it has a hydraulic thumb and the visibility is a lot better not sitting right behind the boom.

You need a Mecalac skid excavator. It's an high speed excavator with skidsteer capabilities. It goes 6 MPH compared to 3 MPH that most mini ex do in high range.

They also have the wheeled version that can do 19 MPH.

Man, sure it's fun to spend other's people money!!

 

[o2batsea]

If you have a small job, then renting an actual mini excavator is best. Only thing is, you have to have the stars align so that weather and other distractions don't blow your schedule.
I bought my tractor with a backhoe not because I was looking for that particular feature, but because it was already there and the deal was too good to pass up. The backhoe and subframe have been a sit-around for the most part. I think I used it a couple years ago for something. I forget what.
I'm not very good with it. It takes me all my concentration just to get the thing to dig, and the results are often quite dismal. It also tends to bounce the tractor all over the place even with the whole mess up in the air on the legs and bucket. It has enough power to pull the entire TLB backwards when tryna dig.
Honestly there are enough guys around who have the gear that can do it faster cheaper better than me I would prolly just pay someone rather than tear up my own gear and waste time.
Tractor in question is a Kioti DK45 Cab with loader and (subframe) backhoe.

 

[ovrszd]

You need a Mecalac skid excavator. It's an high speed excavator with skidsteer capabilities. It goes 6 MPH compared to 3 MPH that most mini ex do in high range.

They also have the wheeled version that can do 19 MPH.

Man, sure it's fun to spend other's people money!!

I will admit, Europeans have some really cool stuff!!!!! First time I saw a Fendt tractor going down the road at 30mph in Germany I was impressed!!!!

 

[California]

What you are describing is a pretty common evolution for tractor guys. I see that lots of us started with a compact tractor&FEL then eventually added a 3pt backhoe before ending up with either a newer TLB or mini.

My old 3pt backhoe sat unused for a couple of years after we got the TLB. Then one day an old buddy asked if it would fit his tractor..... so he used it a few years and then FFWD another ten years and I noticed that old 3pt hoe sitting unused in his barn while he was playing with his new TLB. He eventually passed it along to a neighbor.

My evolution has run the other way, big (relatively) to little. I had only the Yanmar YM240 for several years. Then I put the Yanmar/Kubota backhoe on it. Same model 3-point hoe that you are describing as unused.

Later I bought the little YM186D to better fit under my orchard trees, and for its Powershift (shift without stopping) that is so important for the various slopes here.

Now the YM240 with backhoe sits in the barn for months between digging projects. It's mostly used in the Spring to take out the stumps of old apple trees that blew down over that winter. The backhoe hasn't been removed for a decade.

The little YM186D is in use continually, for everything else. See my sig photo below. (Actually that particular YM186D has been replaced by second one, that has a loader).

I just described in the Shipping Rant thread how the little Yanmar wasn't heavy enough to pull a UPS truck out of a ditch. I don't recall any other time where it wasn't sufficient for anything I need to do in the orchard.

 

[OzarkChris]

I already have a Case 580CK backhoe. It is pretty worn out but still digs. But it does the digging with a two foot wide bucket. According to the manual it will dig a ditch 14 feet deep. My big backhoe also goes places. It needs big places because it is big. But I have a need to dig narrow ditches that are about two feet deep in places where only a small machine will go.
I did make myself a 6 inch wide bucket that affixes to the dipper and will dig two feet deep. It works OK but there is still the limitation of the big backhoe. And I have already bent the thing. The bucket is welded to a piece of 2 x 2 1/4 wall square tubing and has a 2 x 1/4 piece of rectangular stock welded to back of the square tubing, like a spine, for reinforcement. I bent the square tube anyway. About 90 degrees. Because of all the rocks.
So I keep lusting after a small backhoe with a thumb. I keep seeing pictures of 3 point backhoes on tractors the approximate size as my Yanmar YM2310. And pictures of tow behind excavators.
My soil is glacial till. It is full of rocks of various sizes. A bucket with a thumb removes these rocks much easier than digging them out. I know because I rented a small, about 4 feet wide, tracked excavator that had a thumb. Pulling rocks up and out is way easier and faster than digging them out.
So, does anyone here have any experience with these small machines? I know they will be much slower than my Case and I can live with that. But can they do actual work in rocky soil without extreme frustration?
A tow behind would make for a pretty long machine assembly, but in most places I can live with that. But it seems to me that a tow behind might be trouble because it would be so light it would get tugged around. Unless being hitched to the tractor all the time. This would at least tend to hold it in place when digging a ditch in line with the long axis of the tractor.
A 3 point hitch type would be shorter, easier to transport, and have a little more stability side to side. Or would it? I mean the sideways stability. I think I saw methods of attaching 3 point backhoes that added sideways stability.
So, are these small machines worth looking at? I would love some opinions.
Thanks,
Eric

I started off with a "front hoe" which IMHO was much better than a 3pt back hoe. The front hoe can be a pain because it does NOT have lateral movement. Just up, down and curl - attaches to ssqh for up & down 3rd function remote for curl.

After realizing I'd made a 4-5K mistake I convinced my wife (Not an easy task) I needed a mini-x. Got a 2 ton w/almost no time on it with two buckets (1 6"V & 1 12") and a rock breaker & quick connect (manual not hyd) unit for less than 10k - divorce sale it is NOT a name brand, but works well for what I do.

The nicest thing about the 2 ton unit is its weight on the rubber tracks. Barely dents the grass in the front yard when it's still a bit wet. Probably the worst thing about it is it's speed. I actually will trailer it to get from the barn/shed to the front of the house which is probably not more than 3-400 yards. Best guess it travels at ~1mph max speed. That's a bunch of fuel to get anywhere.

Bottom line, if you can't afford a mini-x, rent one (unless you will be using it all the time). If you are thinking about buying a 3pt backhoe (w/subframe), consider putting that $5-8K toward a mini-x. If, like me, you looked at front hoes and are tempted, use that money toward a mini-x. Regardless what color/brand you get I believe you'll A) get more use out of it and B) be much happier with your purchase.

 

[Vigo327]

I have a small skidsteer and a tractor with a subframe backhoe. I've never been attracted to the 'front hoe' options BUT.. as a DIY'er the thought has crossed my mind that a 3pt/subframe backhoe (with swing) as a skidsteer attachment would be the next best thing to a mini-x given that I already own the skid steer. Has anyone here used one?

 

[4570Man]

I have a small skidsteer and a tractor with a subframe backhoe. I've never been attracted to the 'front hoe' options BUT.. as a DIY'er the thought has crossed my mind that a 3pt/subframe backhoe (with swing) as a skidsteer attachment would be the next best thing to a mini-x given that I already own the skid steer. Has anyone here used one?

They make dedicated skid steer backhoes which are usually quite a bit stronger than the tractor models. But still very limited compared to a mini x.

 

[Vigo327]

Yes, I have seen them fairly often (factory skid steer front hoe attachment with swing and outriggers) even down around $4500 but they are specific to the brand and certain models they were built for. I was thinking more along the lines of taking a tractor backhoe which can sometimes be found for nearly nothing if theyve been left to sit for a decade or two, and converting it to a skid steer attachment. Thing is, it's a lot of effort for something that may not be a great idea. That's why I was hoping to hear from someone who has used such an attachment on a skid steer.

I don't plan to change anything about my setup in a hurry. If anything, just get a ripper and a thumb for my small tractor backhoe. I'm just spitballing scenarios where I'd be ok getting rid of this tractor backhoe because I had something else that worked a little bit better and cost a lot less than i'd get from selling this tractor. If i could build something that would reach and dig a little further that could go on the front of my skid steer for <$3k and sell this tractor for 10k+, it's something i'd put some more thought into.