Cedar vs pt Pine fence posts

[BertZegers]

I need a new fence for my pasture. Maybe for 2 or 3 Jersey cows. The pasture is about 2 acres. The terrain is hilly and there is almost no straight line. I need 1/4 of a mile fencing. I have a 6" PTO post hole digger for my tractor.

I am thinking to use RedBrand "field fence" , "square deal knot" 47 inch high 6 inch pull out. (1047-6-11)

I live in southwest Ontario, cold winters, hot summer, and wet spring and fall.

What would be the best poles to use cedar or presure treated pine? (I dont mind the looks and neither do the animals.) but whitch would last the longest ?
Would a 4" pole be heavy enough? (8 foot post to post)

What do you people think?

 

[texasjohn]

In Texas, there is no contest....there are "cedar" posts that have been in the ground 100 years and are still good.
I've used all sorts of pine posts..penta treated and creosote.... cemented and not....all pine rots...give it 10 or more years and you are replacing bunches of posts.

Only warning....the cedar we use here is properly called ash juniper....has a deep red aromatic heart or center which is very rot and insect resistant....the white outer layer, not so much....so, gotta use posts that have a red heart/center of 4 inches or greater.

Don't know if this is the "cedar" you are talking about...maybe you could send a link to the particular kind and we can look for its characteristics.

That said, you might consider using metal T posts for some of your posts...they last well. If you have a FEL, it can be used to drive the T posts assuming it doesn't hit a solid rock.

Lots of fencing tricks and techniques....suggest you use net and research more.....

That said, RedBrand fence as you describe is a great wire fence...we use 5 strand of barb often here...along with electric wire as well.

Might look at what your neighbors are doing...and maybe they will cost share with you??

 

[MotorSeven]

Yep, cedar hands down. But...T posts are really a time saver and will last just as long.

 

[koamfps]

Cedar would be my first choise as well

 

[Depmandog]

Here is Missouri we use "hedge", also known as Osage Orange. The Maclura Pomifera tree is highly insect and decay resistant; very heavy and dense.

It was widely distributed during the dust bowl days and planted as windbreaks. I would say the majority of farms here in the Midwest use this along with metal T posts, mainly because of its local availability.

Hedge posts can often be found for sale in the rural areas, or found at farm auctions. I have no clue if you have this species or similar in your area, but if you do - you can't go wrong.

Here is what the non edible fruit looks like. If I had a nickel for everyone of those I tossed into the sky and shot with a shotgun...

FWIW, the scrub cedar we have here isn't worth diddly for posts. For that matter, neither is the pine.

 

[zonta223]

In Texas, there is no contest....there are "cedar" posts that have been in the ground 100 years and are still good.
I've used all sorts of pine posts..penta treated and creosote.... cemented and not....all pine rots...give it 10 or more years and you are replacing bunches of posts.

Now that is a very interesting comment on pine poles. I wonder if the pine you use is different from the one we use here. We use Pinus Radiata in all the vineyards and I have never seen them rot out. They are pulling out vineyards 20 years old and the posts are as good as new. Wonder if it has something to do with the climate or the type of pine. We have no severe frosts or snow. Would the freeze thaw thing cause them to break up??

 

[20 20]

It goes like this, treated lumber 15 yrs at best, cedar 30yrs+, black logust, place a rock on it when the rock turns to dust time for a new post , more like 70+yrs.

 

[dmccarty]

This question is asked frequently. I have asked it as well. :laughing::laughing::laughing:

The answer is use the cedar or use the PT pine.

We have huge amounts of Eastern Red Cedar on our place and I have several piles of the stuff here and there. I won't use it for anything that is in contact with the dirt and that needs to last a long time. I see plenty of fence rows and outbuildings falling down because the cedar has rotted out. Only the center part of the cedar will last while the outer part rots quickly. A four inch post might only have once inch of rot resistant wood. There is not much strength in one inch of wood. DOT puts up fences along the highway right of ways and I don't see those fence posts rotting away.

The PT wood needs to be at least have .40 of pressure treatment. There are higher treatment levels for use in dock building and wood foundations. I don't think I have ever seen a post rated at more than .40.

I buy PT wood that will be use on important projects from a local manufacturer for years.

I did look at the US Forest Product Lab website and they have wood post tests going back to the mid 60's. I could not find a use of cedar though. Quickly reading through their tests results says one should use PT wood. A couple of the reports where testing after the posts had been in the ground for decades. Part of the test was to pull the post to see if it would hold or break.

The lab website is here, Forest Products Laboratory - USDA Forest Service. A search for pressure treated posts got ABaGizillion hits.

Look at the fence posts being used in your area. I think there are so many variables with bugs, soil conditions, moisture levels, wood type, preservation amounts, preservation chemicals, quality of preservation, that saying what works/don't work for me will perform well for you way up Nawth.

Later,
Dan

 

[Lloyd_E]

If you can get juniper or hack-ma-tack... it would last longer than cedar.

 

[clemsonfor]

This question is asked frequently. I have asked it as well. :laughing::laughing::laughing:

The answer is use the cedar or use the PT pine.

We have huge amounts of Eastern Red Cedar on our place and I have several piles of the stuff here and there. I won't use it for anything that is in contact with the dirt and that needs to last a long time. I see plenty of fence rows and outbuildings falling down because the cedar has rotted out. Only the center part of the cedar will last while the outer part rots quickly. A four inch post might only have once inch of rot resistant wood. There is not much strength in one inch of wood. DOT puts up fences along the highway right of ways and I don't see those fence posts rotting away.

The PT wood needs to be at least have .40 of pressure treatment. There are higher treatment levels for use in dock building and wood foundations. I don't think I have ever seen a post rated at more than .40.

I buy PT wood that will be use on important projects from a local manufacturer for years.

I did look at the US Forest Product Lab website and they have wood post tests going back to the mid 60's. I could not find a use of cedar though. Quickly reading through their tests results says one should use PT wood. A couple of the reports where testing after the posts had been in the ground for decades. Part of the test was to pull the post to see if it would hold or break.

The lab website is here, Forest Products Laboratory - USDA Forest Service. A search for pressure treated posts got ABaGizillion hits.

Look at the fence posts being used in your area. I think there are so many variables with bugs, soil conditions, moisture levels, wood type, preservation amounts, preservation chemicals, quality of preservation, that saying what works/don't work for me will perform well for you way up Nawth.

Later,
Dan

First you want to use cedar that has the center red area of the given diameter that you want. If you want a 6x6 size you need to use a similar red heard diameter. Cause the white outer sapwood is not rot resistant like the red heart is.

Dan, my farm is probly a few hours south of you, im about 1 hour below charlotte. My grandparents built all the out buildings, and there are pics of my dad in front of some when he was maybe 8 or so. This puts the sheds in the 50 yr old range. SUre the diameter of the posts has shrunk but the car shed is still standing pretty good. The sides and floor of the work room end is rotting but its still straight upright.

If it were me i would use posts with about a 6" red center and metal t posts inbetween. Say a cedar post every 30-50 feet and metal inbetween.


Oh dock piles i think are in the 2-3lb per cubic foot range mabe 3.5?? i can check though for sure i know a pole buyer pretty good i work with.

 

[Pete Judd]

Around here, we use Railroad ties for the corners, and steel posts the rest of the way. Then barbed wire and a strand of electric to keep the critters in. Will last almost forever.

 

[Bob77064]

Here is Missouri we use "hedge", also known as Osage Orange. The Maclura Pomifera tree is highly insect and decay resistant; very heavy and dense.

It was widely distributed during the dust bowl days and planted as windbreaks. I would say the majority of farms here in the Midwest use this along with metal T posts, mainly because of its local availability.

Hedge posts can often be found for sale in the rural areas, or found at farm auctions. I have no clue if you have this species or similar in your area, but if you do - you can't go wrong.

Here is what the non edible fruit looks like. If I had a nickel for everyone of those I tossed into the sky and shot with a shotgun...

FWIW, the scrub cedar we have here isn't worth diddly for posts. For that matter, neither is the pine.


View attachment 281389

We have several of those trees and they are tough. When I cut one up with a new chain saw it dulled the blade. And it sure does burn hot.

 

[JoeBuyer]

Pine is gone in no time in the ground and cedar lasts about 15 years in the ground (not as dry as Texas). However as fence rails we have some cedar my great grandfather split and put up in the 1800s. The posts have been replaced but the rails get reused. We moved to railroad ties for posts 20 years ago and they will last 30 to 40 years we are expecting.

 

[texasjohn]

Zonta, sorry, I don't know the species of pine that comes from local lumberyards...do know it is widely sold, penta treated...looks kinda green.... also, have used cresote posts...they last longer than the penta treated, but too rot...I have pulled up lots of fence posts made from the local Ash Juniper locally called "cedar". If you can get a large post with large red heart, it will last and last...harder to find that now...almost all the old growth cedar is gone...kinda need a tree that is maybe 40 years old and straight to make a good fence corner post....8 inches to 12 inch top....6 inch top red heart size.

I do know there are types of pine, such as the long leaf, which seem to have much greater rot resistance than the yellow/white pine now found in box stores. I bought property with old tumbled down house on it..likely 70+ years old...I burned the scrap wood in the fireplace....sap sizzled out like it was cut yesterday....very sticky.

Now that is a very interesting comment on pine poles. I wonder if the pine you use is different from the one we use here. We use Pinus Radiata in all the vineyards and I have never seen them rot out. They are pulling out vineyards 20 years old and the posts are as good as new. Wonder if it has something to do with the climate or the type of pine. We have no severe frosts or snow. Would the freeze thaw thing cause them to break up??

 

[Depmandog]

We have several of those trees and they are tough. When I cut one up with a new chain saw it dulled the blade. And it sure does burn hot.

You definitely DON'T want to load a stove full of hedge!! All sorts of bad stories of stoves getting too hot - warping and worse!

 

[KYDan]

Here is Missouri we use "hedge", also known as Osage Orange. The Maclura Pomifera tree is highly insect and decay resistant; very heavy and dense.

It was widely distributed during the dust bowl days and planted as windbreaks. I would say the majority of farms here in the Midwest use this along with metal T posts, mainly because of its local availability.

Hedge posts can often be found for sale in the rural areas, or found at farm auctions. I have no clue if you have this species or similar in your area, but if you do - you can't go wrong.

Here is what the non edible fruit looks like. If I had a nickel for everyone of those I tossed into the sky and shot with a shotgun...

FWIW, the scrub cedar we have here isn't worth diddly for posts. For that matter, neither is the pine.


View attachment 281389

Here in Kentucky we have Eastern Red Cedar and the red will last some time, but unless the tree has been over shaded by other trees there will not be a lot of red in the center and the white rots quickly. Unless you use extra long staples they will pull out from the white part of the cedar with the freeze and thaw cycles. The old timers here refer to the osage orange as hedge apple and say that the post will outlast the hole. I have cut this wood with chainsaws and seen sparks occasionally. It is really dense and very hard wood. If you cut it when it is green water will flow like it is coming from a spigot. the wood is has a yellow color. I have some posts that have been in my wet clay ground for forty years that are still solid. No cedars or even railroad ties will last that long!

 

[dmccarty]

Around here, we use Railroad ties for the corners, and steel posts the rest of the way. Then barbed wire and a strand of electric to keep the critters in. Will last almost forever.

I saw a couple of fields fenced like that south east of me. Looked nice too. Certainly should last quite some time.

Later,
Dan