Do we expect too much out of our trucks?

[Dmace]

I remember learning to drive Dad's old Ford with a three on the tree. Now you can't even get a stick in a new Ford 1/2 ton.

Dodge still offers a manual option, even in the Diesel. Still no manual in the 1/2-ton HEMI but you can get the 3/4-ton with a HEMI and manual tranny.
I wonder if they just weren't selling for Ford and GM or they didn't want to design a manual tranny tough enough for these newer more powerful engines. I love driving a stick but if it's for mostly towing then I'll take the auto any day.

Gonna have to disagree with this one. Gas engines are the ones who do not sit very well. Diesel will stay good for a long time. I only crank one of my tractors 2-3 times per year and I have no problem starting it right up after warming up the glow plugs. If I let anything with gas sit 6+ months not only will the gas go bad but the water mixed with the ethanol will eat the metal in the carbs and make a heck of a mess.

It's not the diesel fuel that doesn't sit well, it's the engine itself that will not last nearly as long if it sits around more often then not. If you treat the fuel (gas or diesel) properly then there will not be a problem with either. On top of that you have those massive batteries that drain quickly and huge engine internals that need constant oiling or they rust to the side walls very quickly. Keep in mind a diesel truck is very different from a diesel tractor engine, neither should sit long without running though...

 

[MikePA]

I'm getting all misty eyed for oil bath air cleaners, points and condensers.:laughing:

 

[mustangsallysdad]

Dodge still offers a manual option, even in the Diesel. Still no manual in the 1/2-ton HEMI but you can get the 3/4-ton with a HEMI and manual tranny.
I wonder if they just weren't selling for Ford and GM or they didn't want to design a manual tranny tough enough for these newer more powerful engines. I love driving a stick but if it's for mostly towing then I'll take the auto any day.

It's not the diesel fuel that doesn't sit well, it's the engine itself that will not last nearly as long if it sits around more often then not. If you treat the fuel (gas or diesel) properly then there will not be a problem with either. On top of that you have those massive batteries that drain quickly and huge engine internals that need constant oiling or they rust to the side walls very quickly. Keep in mind a diesel truck is very different from a diesel tractor engine, neither should sit long without running though...

It's funny you mention that...I LOVE a manual transmission. I know that with today's towing combinations an automatic is a given as far as the manufacturer is concerned. But, I always liked to be able to select my own gear when hauling or towing, especially up and down hills and for engine braking. Even with the automatic I find myself manually downshifting for engine braking if coming down a grade. I guess some of the other posters in this thread nailed it when mentioning that the driver "interface" if you will, has been removed from our daily driving. It really doesn't take a lot of driver interaction anymore. Seems vehicles have been "dumbed down" to the point where it takes very little skill, if any, to drive them. Heck, my wife's new Ford car will even parallel park itself. No joke, you even take your hands off the wheel so as not to interfere with the car parking itself! Maybe I should have said "Smarted up". Time was you had to be reasonably skilled to drive a vehicle of any kind. Remember "double clutching" back before synchro's? Mention that to most people under 35 or 40 years of age today and you get a blank stare or a "Huh?" I've got an old F450 rollback with a 460 and a split differential that I will sometimes drive into town on errands just to enjoy shifting a gear or two. Now let's see...got me wondering how my V10 F350 would drive with an old toploader 4 speed I've got sitting around the shop? Hmmmm?

 

[Egon]

I'm getting all misty eyed for oil bath air cleaners, points and condensers

What, you mean cleaning and changing every 10K miles does not top your list of desirable activities!:laughing::laughing:

I've still got all the necessary tools required for those jobs but fortunately have forgotten how to use them.:thumbsup:

 

[mustangsallysdad]

I'm getting all misty eyed for oil bath air cleaners, points and condensers.:laughing:

Mike, I've got a dual point distributor and points all set up and ready to go for a Ford FE series engine if you really miss them...I guess there are SOME things about the older cars that I don't miss afterall...it is nice to turn the key on a 41 year old car and have it fire right up! (Don't tell anyone but I sneaked in electronic ignition and fuel injection on an old Mustang).

 

[MikePA]

What, you mean cleaning and changing every 10K miles does not top your list of desirable activities!:laughing::laughing:

I've still got all the necessary tools required for those jobs but fortunately have forgotten how to use them.:thumbsup:

I should have added tuning dual Weber carbs on MGs. Oh yeah, that was fun.

No, we do not expect too much out of our trucks, or cars, etc. :confused2:

 

[mustangsallysdad]

I should have added tuning dual Weber carbs on MGs. Oh yeah, that was fun.

No, we do not expect too much out of our trucks, or cars, etc. :confused2:

I found the solution to those Webers...my wife's '72 MGB has the drivetrain from a '91 Mustang GT in it...took some shoehorning, to say the least. Did it about 15 years ago...I don't know that I have the patience to do that one again. But, man, it goes like stink!

 

[20 20]

Um, that's not what I said, at least that's not what I meant. Perhaps an example...

I figured, sorry about that I kind of got into a rant

If a backhoe operator is digging a trench it means he is bringing in revenue for the company he works for or himself. The more trenches he can did in a day, the more the revenue. Any feature of the backhoe that helps him dig more trenches in the same amount of time means more revenue.

Agreed an operator and machine that can work fluidly are a good compo.

If he is fixing a backhoe, he's not bringing in revenue. If he's not trained to fix the backhoe and takes 4 hours to fix it versus a trained mechanic who can do it in an hour, he's losing even more revenue.

Here is where I have to disagree to a point. If the machine breaks and he can fix it, even in the 4hrs it is still cheaper then hiring/finding a mechanic to drive out and work on it. Now obviously if it is something serious or indepth then of course a mechanic will be needed. BUT an operator with mechanical skills that doesn't mind getting their hands dirty is WAAAAYYY better then the operator that whines all day. I can think of an example that was just on TV; One of the logging crews hired a couple of folks that would not fix OR even try to fix things out in the woods "because it was not their job!" The fixes were simple and ended up costing big bucks mostly because of down time waiting for a mechanic to come out and tighten a bolt. I have seen this type of stuff happen many of times over my years. When I drove tractor trailer I was an owner operator, and I can tell you if I didn't have mechanical skills I would have went belly up real fast waiting and paying for simple fixes.

Years ago, old timers probably thought a canopy was for girly men. A cab? For sissies. A cab with AC and a radio? What is the world coming to? A cab, AC, radio and GPS? Why, my granpappy could line up the dent in the hood with the old oak tree and plow a pretty straight line. If it makes the operator more efficient, that's more production, and more revenue.

Of course then we have today were everything stops because without GPS we're lost geees those stupid maps

I'm not sure if they would have thought of the machines as being "girly men" maybe some of the operators of today I still believe it is the operator knowledge that keeps things running smooth not the machine. Let me ask this? If you owned a business who would you want running your machine. Two folks apply for the job, they both can run the machine but only one checks everything out AND KNOWS what to look for before the start of the day??? Driving a machine and being a responsible operator are two completely different things and can make or break a company especially in hard times.

 

[MikePA]

Driving a machine and being a responsible operator are two completely different things and can make or break a company especially in hard times.

Agreed.

 

[mustangsallysdad]

I figured, sorry about that I kind of got into a rant



Agreed an operator and machine that can work fluidly are a good compo.



Here is where I have to disagree to a point. If the machine breaks and he can fix it, even in the 4hrs it is still cheaper then hiring/finding a mechanic to drive out and work on it. Now obviously if it is something serious or indepth then of course a mechanic will be needed. BUT an operator with mechanical skills that doesn't mind getting their hands dirty is WAAAAYYY better then the operator that whines all day. I can think of an example that was just on TV; One of the logging crews hired a couple of folks that would not fix OR even try to fix things out in the woods "because it was not their job!" The fixes were simple and ended up costing big bucks mostly because of down time waiting for a mechanic to come out and tighten a bolt. I have seen this type of stuff happen many of times over my years. When I drove tractor trailer I was an owner operator, and I can tell you if I didn't have mechanical skills I would have went belly up real fast waiting and paying for simple fixes.



Of course then we have today were everything stops because without GPS we're lost geees those stupid maps

I'm not sure if they would have thought of the machines as being "girly men" maybe some of the operators of today I still believe it is the operator knowledge that keeps things running smooth not the machine. Let me ask this? If you owned a business who would you want running your machine. Two folks apply for the job, they both can run the machine but only one checks everything out AND KNOWS what to look for before the start of the day??? Driving a machine and being a responsible operator are two completely different things and can make or break a company especially in hard times.

My neighbor (white collar type) had the dealer come out on a service call to change a bad hydraulic hose ($175)...said he was afraid of messing something up on his tractor...He has about an acre and a half to mow and that's all he uses it for (well, an occasional driveway plow). I told him (he asked my advice, I didn't offer) to sell the Kubota and get a riding mower.

 

[Diamondpilot]

I remember learning to drive Dad's old Ford with a three on the tree. Now you can't even get a stick in a new Ford 1/2 ton.

We call that 3 upstairs around here... I have also heard of 3 on the tree. Those old Fords were all cold blooded as HE!!

The more we talk about this the more I say give me a new truck any day of the week. We were all much younger and did not mind working on them every weekend. We take the new stuff for granted always starting, no problem warming up, ect.

Chris

 

[Diamondpilot]

Dodge still offers a manual option, even in the Diesel. Still no manual in the 1/2-ton HEMI but you can get the 3/4-ton with a HEMI and manual tranny.
I wonder if they just weren't selling for Ford and GM or they didn't want to design a manual tranny tough enough for these newer more powerful engines. I love driving a stick but if it's for mostly towing then I'll take the auto any day.

The other issue is a manual tranny hurts mpg in most cases. What I mean is you can drive it how you want with a manual but a auto is much more consistent delivering consistent performance.

My mechanic drag races. He has a Mustang with a 4.6, nitros, super charger, ect, ect, ect. Its a fast car. Anyway it came with 3.55 gears and would run 12 seconds to high 11's. He swapped the rear to 4.10's and guess what it runs 12 seconds to high 11's. The 60' and 1/2 track speed is much higher but the end result is the same. He keep the 4.10's because its much more fun to drive.

Fast forward to the next year. The car was a Auto. He swapped it to a manual and lost speed. He let others make passes in the car and they could not match the speed of the auto. Granted the auto was built up with a good torque converter, shift kit, ect. He put the auto back in and the times came back down. Still runs the auto to this day. Just goes to show you that a modern auto is very efficient and will provide the best performance overall.

I agree, for towing, especially what I do there is no way I would have a manual. I could not imagine 15,000# to 25,000# behind my F-350 on a slick steep boat ramp with a manual. Even in 4 low it would be next to impossible to not smoke the clutch.

Dodge is the only one currently offering a stick in trucks. The last time I looked at them in 07 they derated the engines in the manuals versus the autos. I wonder if this was done to keep the warranty claims down and the clutches in them? I am sure Dodge and a manual tranny is soon going to be a thing of the past.

Chris

 

[Diamondpilot]

It's funny you mention that...I LOVE a manual transmission. I know that with today's towing combinations an automatic is a given as far as the manufacturer is concerned. But, I always liked to be able to select my own gear when hauling or towing, especially up and down hills and for engine braking. Even with the automatic I find myself manually downshifting for engine braking if coming down a grade. I guess some of the other posters in this thread nailed it when mentioning that the driver "interface" if you will, has been removed from our daily driving. It really doesn't take a lot of driver interaction anymore. Seems vehicles have been "dumbed down" to the point where it takes very little skill, if any, to drive them. Heck, my wife's new Ford car will even parallel park itself. No joke, you even take your hands off the wheel so as not to interfere with the car parking itself! Maybe I should have said "Smarted up". Time was you had to be reasonably skilled to drive a vehicle of any kind. Remember "double clutching" back before synchro's? Mention that to most people under 35 or 40 years of age today and you get a blank stare or a "Huh?" I've got an old F450 rollback with a 460 and a split differential that I will sometimes drive into town on errands just to enjoy shifting a gear or two. Now let's see...got me wondering how my V10 F350 would drive with an old toploader 4 speed I've got sitting around the shop? Hmmmm?

I still do not understand why the truck manufactures do not put a high low rear end in them? I drive in my neighbors old Ford F-700 390 gas dump truck and its pretty neat to be able to drop it down to a ultra low granny gear for fine work.

Chris

 

[Diamondpilot]

Mike, I've got a dual point distributor and points all set up and ready to go for a Ford FE series engine if you really miss them...I guess there are SOME things about the older cars that I don't miss afterall...it is nice to turn the key on a 41 year old car and have it fire right up! (Don't tell anyone but I sneaked in electronic ignition and fuel injection on an old Mustang).

You are a smart man!

I can think of a better way spending my Saturday. The only good part was you spent the day in the garage with a few cold ones listing to the game on the radio.

Chris

 

[deerefan]

The other issue is a manual tranny hurts mpg in most cases. What I mean is you can drive it how you want with a manual but a auto is much more consistent delivering consistent performance.

My mechanic drag races. He has a Mustang with a 4.6, nitros, super charger, ect, ect, ect. Its a fast car. Anyway it came with 3.55 gears and would run 12 seconds to high 11's. He swapped the rear to 4.10's and guess what it runs 12 seconds to high 11's. The 60' and 1/2 track speed is much higher but the end result is the same. He keep the 4.10's because its much more fun to drive.

Fast forward to the next year. The car was a Auto. He swapped it to a manual and lost speed. He let others make passes in the car and they could not match the speed of the auto. Granted the auto was built up with a good torque converter, shift kit, ect. He put the auto back in and the times came back down. Still runs the auto to this day. Just goes to show you that a modern auto is very efficient and will provide the best performance overall.

I agree, for towing, especially what I do there is no way I would have a manual. I could not imagine 15,000# to 25,000# behind my F-350 on a slick steep boat ramp with a manual. Even in 4 low it would be next to impossible to not smoke the clutch.

Dodge is the only one currently offering a stick in trucks. The last time I looked at them in 07 they derated the engines in the manuals versus the autos. I wonder if this was done to keep the warranty claims down and the clutches in them? I am sure Dodge and a manual tranny is soon going to be a thing of the past.

Chris

A good friend of mine has an 04 3/4 ton reg cab 2wd Dodge w/ the hemi and 5spd manual. Now, he pulled some heavy stuff w/ it occasionally, such as 15 full grown cows in a stock trailer or 12-14 round bales on a gooseneck. The engine is still going strong @ 150k miles, but the tranny was redone @ 70k. The mechanic that redid it could not believe how light duty it was. He sold the truck to his dad and bought a 1 ton dually w/ the cummins and 6spd manual. That is a pulling machine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the manual behind the hemi in the 3/4 ton is similar or the same one in the 1/2 ton V6 right??

 

[20 20]

The other issue is a manual tranny hurts mpg in most cases. What I mean is you can drive it how you want with a manual but a auto is much more consistent delivering consistent performance.Chris

I don't believe this statement is true, even when you look at the stats on a vehicle the standard/manual will give a higher MPG rating then auto?? Of course a person has to know how to run a manual in order for it to workout. I know I can get better MPG with manual. BUT with health issues an auto is nice.

 

[Diamondpilot]

I don't believe this statement is true, even when you look at the stats on a vehicle the standard/manual will give a higher MPG rating then auto?? Of course a person has to know how to run a manual in order for it to workout. I know I can get better MPG with manual. BUT with health issues an auto is nice.

I am sure you can as can I but what I said "more consistent". Like on average. If you take 10,000 vehicles with a auto and identical 10,000 with a manual the auto will be the manual over the course of a year.

My first car was a Ford Escort with a manual. It had a tach and a shift light. I would drive it by the shift light then by short shifting prior to the light. Driving by the light gave much better performance, well as good as a Escort could perform, but I could get better mpg short shifting. So yes, it can be done but I would bet less then 10% of the population could do better than by following the shift light.

Chris

 

[dodge man]

As far as drag racing goes, in theory, a stick should be quicker. It is just a plain fact that a manual has less horsepower lost. The problem is, and I've drag raced a few times, is the timing at the lights. Its tough with an automatic and requires a lot of concentration, but with a stick, its really tough to cut a good light. Just about anybody can slam gears fast with a little practice. Also getting the right RPM's at the start is tough with a stick, you don't want to bog the engine, but you don't want to smoke the rear tires. The big advantage in the past for a stick was more gears. They had 4 gears when autos were 3. Then it was 5 gears when autos had 4. Now six speed autos and sticks are very common.

Its the same thing with a street vehicle, in theory, the stick should get better mileage, but in every day use, I can see where that often wouldn't happen. Automatic transmissions have come a long way and are pretty decent today.

 

[RobertN]

Little side note, big rigs tow with all kinds of manual trannies. But since I have been involved in volunteer fire, only a few old apparatus in our district are stick(we are mix paid/volunteer). I see a lot of the engines and water tenders from other districts; they are all auto. The engines our district has purchased for the last five years are 8.9l Cummins with auto. Our older(1986!) Ford F8xxx series had an auto too; CAT 3208 with an auto.

All of the manual tranny engines in our district have been replaced, except a couple parade rigs. Only some of our water tenders still have sticks; Detroits with 10spd. They will surely go auto when they rotate out of the fleet.

I agree, for towing, especially what I do there is no way I would have a manual.

 

[some zilch]

Little side note, big rigs tow with all kinds of manual trannies. But since I have been involved in volunteer fire, only a few old apparatus in our district are stick(we are mix paid/volunteer). I see a lot of the engines and water tenders from other districts; they are all auto. The engines our district has purchased for the last five years are 8.9l Cummins with auto. Our older(1986!) Ford F8xxx series had an auto too; CAT 3208 with an auto.

All of the manual tranny engines in our district have been replaced, except a couple parade rigs. Only some of our water tenders still have sticks; Detroits with 10spd. They will surely go auto when they rotate out of the fleet.

thats b/c any joe-shmoe has to be able drive them. i work for a municipality, and ALL their heavy trucks are automatics b/c their "truck drivers" could not grasp the whole idea of a clutch. i cant stand them...they shift when they feel like it, theres no engine braking, you burn though brakes wayyyy too fast. the newest truck has 42 wires that go into the transmission controller, and there is no "mechanical" connection between the shifter and the trans itself. i find it quite embarrising to drive them, coming from driving heavy haul w/ an 18spd......