Generac or Koehler whole house generator?

/ Generac or Koehler whole house generator? #121  
When I had the choice I went with Generac due to the dealer. THAT made all the difference. I got the 22k unit. Before I did my disabled neighbor got the Kohler 14k and paid half again what I did. The dealer he bought from took advantage of him. That made my decision for me. Who you buy from is as important as the brand you buy.

RSKY
 
/ Generac or Koehler whole house generator? #122  
Natural Gas seems like the best fuel because it shouldn't run out. I understand that something can happen to the pipeline, but there are more chances that you won't be able to get gas, diesel or propane then the Natural Gas Line not supplying it.

MY current generator is a 10,000 watt starting 8,000 watt running Champion generator that also used propane, but the rating decreases to 9,000 watt starting and 7,200 watt running rating. I have several propane bottle for it because it can be challenging getting gasoline here when we have a Hurricane/Tropical Storm, or even worse, an ice storm that closes the roads. When the power is out, most of the gas stations shut down because they do not have generators. The last outage, I had four 5 gallon gas cans filled up and I used 3 of them. A couple years ago, we lost power for a week because of an ice storm, and I used up all my gasoline and didn't have any propane, so I had to drive around to find an open gas station. I think I found gasoline somewhere around my 20th gas station.

For me, if I'm going to spend the money on a whole house system, I want it to run off of Natural Gas.
I have the same generator and I typically keep 10 gallons of non-ethanol on hand since I use it for my zero turn.
My issue is that I don't have natural gas available in my area so would have to have a large propane tank to feed a house generator.
If you haven't yet get a soft-start for your A/C that will lower your starting amps from about 90-100 amps to about 20-30 amps. This will allow you to run your A/C off of your 10,000 watt generator.
 
/ Generac or Koehler whole house generator? #123  
You’re just digging yourself in a deeper hole. Don’t try to reverse engineer a misprinted, or miss-written bogus number.

View attachment 898608

The 13 kw NG numbers I’ve now circled in blue look reasonable.
See the difference?
Now look again at the 10 kw numbers. You really think you can get double the power for only 25% more fuel…and at maximum load?
Of course not. ICE engines don’t work like that.

Do you own a generator or are you speaking out your *** as usual?
 
/ Generac or Koehler whole house generator? #124  
Very informative thread we have a 7500 generator that just gets us by we lose power three to four times a year.

Sixdogs years ago I had not been on here very long we lost our golden you responded and made our loss much easier to bear. I will never forget it thank you
 
/ Generac or Koehler whole house generator? #125  
I dont have much experience with the Kohler line. But there supposed to be pretty reliable.

I dont know anything about kohler manual remote start and stop. I do inow its never a good thing to stop a running generator while its under a load. If the manual switch doesnt cut off the load prior to start or stop you let out the magic smoke…… i mean literally..you can smoke the generator.

A transfer switch automatically cuts the feed and thus the load and allows the generator to operated unloaded for some time prior to shutting down. The reverse is true for starting up. .
Very informative thread we have a 7500 generator that just gets us by we lose power three to four times a year.
McDonald's Menu
Sixdogs years ago I had not been on here very long we lost our golden you responded and made our loss much easier to bear. I will never forget it thank you
have a whole home generator, what brand do you have, and have you had any issues with it?
Or if you are a tech, or installer, which brand do you suggest?
Thanks
 
/ Generac or Koehler whole house generator?
  • Thread Starter
#126  
I expect that something like this Kohler 20kW unit is what I'm going to end up getting.
Please keep us posted. I'm very undecided on what I want to get for my place.
I believe Kohler goes from 16K with the next gap at 20K. 16K is probably OK but 20K seals the deal and covers all the improbable things that happen during emergencies.

My guy is working up a price for 16K and one for 20K and he told me the incremental price difference is not that big of a deal. We'll see.
 
/ Generac or Koehler whole house generator? #127  
The complaints about Texas natural gas are mostly political games.

The root problem a few years ago was a series of decisions that all hit at the same time.

It hasn't been a recurring problem. Most Texans read the 'Tribune' as comedy relief rather than as news.

I wish I could have run NG here. I have a 250 gal propane tank and a great local dealer.
 
/ Generac or Koehler whole house generator? #128  
have a whole home generator, what brand do you have, and have you had any issues with it?
Or if you are a tech, or installer, which brand do you suggest?
Thanks
Ive installed most brands, large and small. From hospital diesel units to 7.5 kw small home units.
Right now i only work on generac air cooled brands. For me, i have very few issues with the generac twin cylinder sized units. Ive had some issues on the smaller single cylinder jobs.

I cant tell you of the reliability of other brands , cause i dont service them.
 
/ Generac or Koehler whole house generator? #129  
I am a retired electric lineman of 38 yearS of service.Here are my thoughts I have owned 2 generac whole house units (17 & 18 kw)with ZERO problems over a 14 year period.In my travels I have seen more generac generators more than any other brands.
 
/ Generac or Koehler whole house generator?
  • Thread Starter
#130  
I am the OP and have come to believe that both Koehler and Generac are good quality generators.
 
/ Generac or Koehler whole house generator? #131  
Have studied both brands both good
 
/ Generac or Koehler whole house generator? #133  
Why is it that natural gas plants, solar, and wind energy works just fine in other nearby states where we get much colder weather every winter than Texas?
Not true. The freeze in 2022 severely affected natural gas supplies in OK and other states. If you follow the natural gas industry closely you will find production volumes decline in many areas in the US during severe weather events, be it cold or things like hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico. Generally the production shortages are made up from storage fields but in extremes there may be localized issues just due to local logistics.

Some examples: In the 1990's total natural gas production in the US ran about 50-55 BCFD; about 12-14 of that came from the GOM. By the mid aughts that offshore production had declined to about 8-10 BCFD. When things like Katrina hit the offshore production dropped precipitously with this affecting primarlily Lousiana and the southeast US. Power demand was also way off due to the hurricane, it was still summer and gas storage made up the difference. Nowdays we are producing abut 100 BCFD in the US, power generation demand for natural gas has gone way up (summertime US demand hits 45 BCFD or higher peaks) but again storage (also expanded greatly over the last 20-30 years) makes up any shortfalls.

Winter time is a different animal. Curtailments do occur during severe weather events or other issues. Back in the day, 1970's for example, Jimmy Carter told us to turn down our thermostats to conserve natural gas. Problem was that the Feds had price controls on natural gas and new supplies were not being drilled fast enough to keep up with demand. Enter the 1980's when prices were deregulated and supplies took off. Prices plummeted for natural gas and hundreds of small to medium oil and gas companies went bankrupt due to too much production.

Again there were issues in a 10 day cold snap in 1983 and severe but colder cold snaps in 1989 and 1990. There was much written about the 1983 issue, look for 'Ten Days on the Brink'.

Current day we have issues like in 2022. What causes the severe dislocation in supply and demand? In a severe cold snap in the US these days natural gas demand can spike to 140-160 BCFD (remember above that production is runnig about 100 BCFD). The difference again is made up from storage. However if cold is bad enough and long enough, US production can drop to 80-90 BCFD or lower. The lower production thus exacerbates the demand for storage gas. One fine point on natural gas storage: deliverability from natural gas storage is driven by the high pressure in the storage fields. As storage withdrawals occur the pressure in the fields drops and as a result the rate of maximum withdrawals that are available falls (interestingly enough the issue in Texas was in February when storage was already partially depleted). At the beginning of the winter, total storage withdrawal capacity across the US runs in the 80-90 BCFD; late in the winter the maximum withdrawal rates can be half of that. This also assumes you are using storage across the US simultaneously. Just because it is very cold in the northeast, storage withdrawals in California won't help the needs in the northeast immediately. So its a logistics issue as well.

What has also developed in the US is more and more load shedding occurs in the industrial and export markets to reduce natural gas demand during weather extremes. For example we deliver about 12 BCFD currently to US LNG export plants. The natural gas is chilled, liquefied and shipped via tanker to Europe, Asia, South America, etc. When demand is extreme in the US spot prices for natural gas rise immensly for that brief moment in time and producing LNG for export becomes uneconomical. The LNG terminals shut down and wahla, the natural gas that was going to the LNG market is now availble (for a price) for the domestic market. The same things occur with chemical plants, steel mills, etc. when the economics justify it. Plus it also reduces the demand for electricity which also can go to other needs in the domestic market. In Feb., 2022 most of the US gulf coast LNG plants shut down temporarily.

Anyway back to the underlying comment. Why doesn't this problem show up in other states? It does. Again I point out in 2022 it occured in neighboring states like OK, but it wasn't popular to discuss in the media as Texas was the main story. As I mentioned in a previous post, part of the issue in Texas was the screwed up prioritization of critical demand for power serving the oil fields, plants, etc. Shut off the power and it shuts in the gas supply leaving less available for utilities to convert to power. Kind of like a circular firing squad.

Additionally Texas's electrical grid is more or less isolated from the other US grids by design. Texas has limited capability to export or import power from neighboring states and Mexico. Last I looked, the connectivity from the main Texas grid operated by ERCOT had about 1000 MW (more or less) cross border capability. FYI, Texas is the largest power consuming state in the country and peak demand can run in excess of 90,000 MW (summer), Somewhat lower peaks in the winter. So if Texas has a big issue in supply/demand balance like Feb, 2022 they are on their own. Alternatively, the US has two other main grids, Western and Eastern (and subsets within). If things go wonky in places like say Ohio, power can theoretically be wheeled up from North Carolina (assuming the transmission lines can handle it) and life goes on. That is not to say problems cannot occur. Look at the issues in the northeast awhile back in the northeast, i.e. the NY blackout a couple of decades or more back or more recently when HydroQuebec had a failure due to supposedly a solar flare that cascaded into the northeast some years back.

So to answer your question, other areas do suffer from outages all of the time, epic disasters are mostly avoided due to interconnectivity allowing balancing across large geographic areas that hopefully have sufficient excess transmission capability (of both natural gas and power) to bridge those long distances from areas that are not under stress to areas that are having issues.

Back to some more subtle nuances of natural gas. When oil and gas are produced from wells the production also contains water. If it is coming from a high pressure gas well, the pressure is reduced to pipeline pressure and just like your air conditioner, when the gas expands and drops pressure it gets colder. The cold temperatures can be sufficient to cause the water vapor in the natural gas to freeze and plug the well up. One way this is mitigated is to inject methanol into the gas stream BEFORE the pressure is reduced. The methanol binds with the water vapor and no ice forms. What happens in practice (more so in the warmer production areas rather than say North Dakota or Canada) is that these methonol injection systems are not used all of the time or may not even be installed. Also insulation on pipes and heat tracing may not be installed in the southern areas. That is not to say the colder climates don't suffer from these issues but it typically is not as pronounced as the warmer areas. These practices are being revised as a result of the fallout of the Feb, 2022 issue. And keep in mind, Texas produce about 20-25% of the total natural gas in the US. But even in areas like the Bakken in North Dakota severe winter weather can see well head production drop 20-30% during an extreme winter cold snap.

Long story short, the problems that occured in Texas also occur elsewhere. Part of that is mitigated by broader logistical reach covering areas that allow for better load balancing. But the issues regarding the competing power generation technologies are only to get worse across the US as well as other advanced economies in the world as a larger percentage of generation is switched to nonsteady state production. The term is an 'unstable' grid. If you do some research you will see developing issues in Germany for eample (and they are interconnected with the rest of Europe) or even some isolated islands in Hawaii due to the higher ratios of renewable, weather dependent generation vs. on-demand power generation. The issue in Texas was a combination of failed communications regarding critical infrastructure; poor planning on the part of many players in the food chain including gas producers, power generators, pipelines, wind and solar generators (yes there were freezoffs of windmills, etc.), cloudy weather (who would have guessed). Are these issues avoidable? Absolutely (almost). It takes money, planning, redudancy and cooperation. No surprise there. Are areas outside of Texas also vulnurable? Absolutely. I gave a couple of examples already. And lets not even begin to discuss the screwed up mess on the west coast.

I hope this gives some food for thought. Be mindful of media agendas as well as competing political narratives. In concept this is not real complicated but the execution of a coordinated management of these various pieces is complex. And different participants have many competing agendas. Texas historically enjoys the isolation from as many federal regulations as possible including the power grid. However it needs to do it better than the federal oversight does by being smarter to both be market responsive and efficient. As power prices remain very competitve in Texas more and more people and industry are affected by it and attracted to it. Just as an aside, check out the power prices that are going to be paid by NY folks from the two large offshore windfarms that are under construction; rather eye opening. Happy Trails!
 
/ Generac or Koehler whole house generator?
  • Thread Starter
#134  
I'm the OP on this and am going with an 18K Generac and powered by a propane line that runs a few ft away. I'm going to keep my 10k/12k gas generator as a backup to the backup. (Now my power will never, ever go out. ;)

The electrician installer is a family friend of 25 years and first class guy. In final details, here are the questions I think I need to ask. Help me out.

Hard start vs soft start and how surge factors in?
Auto start vs manual start? Can I have both?
Do I have variable timing delay start?

What else to add?
Know that I'm in a rural ag county and I think there are few regulations. I had the propane guy out and no questions or issues. He'll hook it up.
 
/ Generac or Koehler whole house generator? #135  
Ok, hard start vs soft start for ac loads. First thing to do is to find out if you even need it. After unit is up and running, if ac unit either fails to start or lights dim when ac starts up and generator bogs down alot, add a soft start. In my opinion, never use a hard start.

Not sure what you mean by question 2, but if you dont want generator starting whenever power fails, simply place it in the off position. Battery will still keep charged, but it wont exercise. Than if power were to fail, you would have to go out to generator and place it into the auto mode, it will sense power outage and start up and transfer. When power is restored, it will transfer to utility than run a minute to cool down and shut off. You can also shut it down at any time manually, like when you go to bed, by simply going out to generator, tripping the 2 pole breaker to kill supply power than waiting a minute for unloaded cool down and press off button. If power is restored in middle of the night, the transfer switch will still switch back to utility with gen turned off.

In dealer menu, the installer can adjust the time delay from factory 6 seconds up to 1500 seconds. This helps in brownout susceptible areas.

I also live in rural ag area, but was still required to get permit and notify my rural power coop. Also, if you choose not to get a permit, it could affect your homeowners insurance.
 
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/ Generac or Koehler whole house generator? #136  
Get a soft start for your A/C regardless. My starting amps went from about 95 amps to about 25 amps. Not only will this help your generator but should increase the life of your A/C condenser.

Micro-Air Easy Start
 
/ Generac or Koehler whole house generator?
  • Thread Starter
#137  
Get a soft start for your A/C regardless. My starting amps went from about 95 amps to about 25 amps. Not only will this help your generator but should increase the life of your A/C condenser.

Micro-Air Easy Start
Thank you. We are getting soft start on A/C. (y)
 
/ Generac or Koehler whole house generator?
  • Thread Starter
#138  
Ok, hard start vs soft start for ac loads. First thing to do is to find out if you even need it. After unit is up and running, if ac unit either fails to start or lights dim when ac starts up and generator bogs down alot, add a soft start. In my opinion, never use a hard start.

Not sure what you mean by question 2, but if you dont want generator starting whenever power fails, simply place it in the off position. Battery will still keep charged, but it wont exercise. Than if power were to fail, you would have to go out to generator and place it into the auto mode, it will sense power outage and start up and transfer. When power is restored, it will transfer to utility than run a minute to cool down and shut off. You can also shut it down at any time manually, like when you go to bed, by simply going out to generator, tripping the 2 pole breaker to kill supply power than waiting a minute for unloaded cool down and press off button. If power is restored in middle of the night, the transfer switch will still switch back to utility with gen turned off.

In dealer menu, the installer can adjust the time delay from factory 6 seconds up to 1500 seconds. This helps in brownout susceptible areas.

I also live in rural ag area, but was still required to get permit and notify my rural power coop. Also, if you choose not to get a permit, it could affect your homeowners insurance.
I checked. No permits needed and homeowners insurance gives a discount for homes with backup. (y)
 
/ Generac or Koehler whole house generator?
  • Thread Starter
#139  
Thanks everyone on this thread. I went from dumb as a box of rocks concerning backup generators to being able to hold my own in a casual conversation.
 
/ Generac or Koehler whole house generator? #140  
My well pump is a 3/4 hp and seems to be the biggest amp draw. If the dryer is going (plus all the lights, fridges, etc) and the pump kicks on, the generator struggles a bit. Otherwise no issues. Most of my house is gas (heat,hw,stove).

I set my start delay for 10 seconds, due to the nature of the power outages around here (sometimes just a few seconds).

I keep mine set to auto. I only turn it off to let it rest if it’s been running for a day or more. I Check the oil and leave it off for a bit.

I didn’t get a permit. Not sure how strict they are around you. Make sure the generator is far enough away from structures, vegetation, openable windows, etc. Distances are listed in the manual.

What is your propane tank size? 2 one hundred gallon tanks will last around 4 days running 24 hrs a day. From my experience.
 

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