Hose crimps

wedge40 · Jun 13, 2009

The whole point of SAE standard is to have interchangeability. Well at least that's what I was taught in college.

Wedge

Wayne County Hose · Jun 13, 2009

wedge40 said:
The whole point of SAE standard is to have interchangeability. Well at least that's what I was taught in college.

Wedge

Ah-ha! Now we find out the malfunction! My dad always said that you can send someone to college but you can't make them think.

The SAE standard covers the hose and the portion of the fitting that designates it's fitting type. SAE standards do not cover the crimp. SAE standards also do not cover the internal dimensions of the hose. This being the distance between the wire spirals and the inner and outer covers. Within an SAE spec, this will vary. Which is why you should not mix hose and crimp fitting manufacturers.

J_J · Jun 13, 2009

Wayne County Hose said:
Ah-ha! Now we find out the malfunction! My dad always said that you can send someone to college but you can't make them think.

The SAE standard covers the hose and the portion of the fitting that designates it's fitting type. SAE standards do not cover the crimp. SAE standards also do not cover the internal dimensions of the hose. This being the distance between the wire spirals and the inner and outer covers. Within an SAE spec, this will vary. Which is why you should not mix hose and crimp fitting manufacturers.

This one of the references I referred to.

Hydraulic Hose and Fitting Compatibility
There are a number of SAE Standards that cover the performance requirements of hydraulic hose assemblies. Included are the J517, J516, and J343 Standards.

Hydraulic hoses that are claimed to meet SAE J517 standards (e.g. SAE 100R1 and SAE 100R2) need to be designed for, and certified to, the criteria defined by SAE. That criteria includes stringent dimensional tolerances (inside, outside, and braid diameters), compound and reinforcement types, length changes, cold flexibility, and ozone and heat resistance. There are also burst pressure and impulse requirements in J517. Those requirements are for coupled assemblies, and SAE states that "the general and dimensional standards for hydraulic hose fittings are obtained in SAE J526."

Hydraulic hose fittings that meet SAE J516 Standards are similarly well defined by SAE as to material type, dimensions, finish, etc. The SAE manual also specifically states that J516 fittings are intended to be used "in conjunction with hydraulic hoses specified in SAE J517, and utilized in hydraulic systems on mobile and stationary equipment."

SAE J343 is the standard that establishes "uniform methods of the testing and performance evaluation of the SAE 100R series of hydraulic hose and hose assemblies." Coupled assemblies are expected to meet or exceed SAE performance if the SAE criteria described above are met.

The integrity of any hose assembly depends upon the components, fittings, and hose meeting the rigorous SAE requirements, and then the components being assembled by skilled personnel. This is true regardless of where the components are manufactured. Testing has been completed on Kurt Manufacturing fittings coupled to Semperit hydraulic hose, and the tested assemblies have passed SAE performance criteria.

While there has been an integration of hose and fitting manufacturers, independent hose and fitting manufacturers can and will continue to produce top class products that will provide excellent assemblies just as they have done for decades.

Just what is the purpose of adjustable dies, if not to make things work better. There is no argument, that if you take brand A and use brand A fittings, and use brand A crimping machine, and a trained professional with years of experience, it would be hard not to get it right, but then again, it would be hard to come up with all the parts from the same manufacture to enable one to call factory Brand A hose assembly, one of the best. So in essence, if the hose has Weatherhead on it , or Gates, that means what?

However, if you take an unskilled person and give him a mixture of parts and hoses, that he just might make up a bad hose. You could probably give anyone the materials and some instructions, that in a short time, he could make up a usable and maybe even a certified hose, that meets any SAE standard. Just how many of you have had a hose assembly made up, and it just came apart rather quickly, and half the time, it was factory made up hoses. So, who's to blame. If you then take it to the tractor place, and they make up another hose, that is another person with different materials, and another crimper machine. Just who do you trust. Most of us would use the nearest place with reasonable prices, be it NAPA, hydraulic shop A, or hydraulic shop B. We just want it done, and time is important to some of us.

http://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/200/Issue/Article/False/6566/Issue

wedge40 · Jun 13, 2009

Wayne County Hose said:
Ah-ha! Now we find out the malfunction! My dad always said that you can send someone to college but you can't make them think.

The SAE standard covers the hose and the portion of the fitting that designates it's fitting type. SAE standards do not cover the crimp. SAE standards also do not cover the internal dimensions of the hose. This being the distance between the wire spirals and the inner and outer covers. Within an SAE spec, this will vary. Which is why you should not mix hose and crimp fitting manufacturers.

Dem thar engineers who develop the SAE specs are really specific. I haven't read them, but I think JJ has and knows them better than some people here.
See above.

Wedged

J_J · Jun 13, 2009

wedge40 ,

Thanks, but I don't want to get into specs on material. There is just to much data out there, that can be refuted by anyone. I just try and use good common sense on most things. When someone says, that is the gospel, and written in stone, etc. It makes one wonder. I really do have some hard opinions about some things.

I want to say flat out , that I am not a hydraulic expert by any means, and don't claim to be. I know what I know by reading, doing, and making mistakes and trying to correct those. I try and use other peoples knowledge when I can, and I am willing to share what I know, with no reservation. If I am wrong about anything, so be it. I am sure someone will correct me.

scoyt · Jun 13, 2009

I am pretty sure that SAE does have regulations on crimps.....but I don't have a hyd. hose shop............

J_J · Jun 13, 2009

This is what Parker has to say about their products.

Read in particular to items 3.2---3.4.

http://www.parker.com/literature/Safety Guide - 2007-11 - Final Revision.pdf

Wayne County Hose · Jun 14, 2009

Hydraulic hose fittings that meet SAE J516 Standards are similarly well defined by SAE as to material type, dimensions, finish, etc. The SAE manual also specifically states that J516 fittings are intended to be used "in conjunction with hydraulic hoses specified in SAE J517, and utilized in hydraulic systems on mobile and stationary equipment."

Hmmm. Interesting. So then why do most of the crimps made by different manufacturers all look so different? How come Weatherhead crimp is longer than an Aeroquip crimp? How can a Gates crimp be 2 piece? How can an Aeroquip crimp have deeper teeth than a Weatherhead crimp? I'm confused. I thought they are all supposed to have the same dimensions?

What was written in that post was not SAE standards but somebody's opinion. I would feel much better if I saw actual SAE standards quoted or a link to the actual standards.

J_J, I am glad that you are keeping an open and honest mind about this. Parker and every other major manufacturer says not to mix and match brands and they do explicitly waive any liability should anyone choose to mix brands. This being said, there are some that choose to just engage in a peeing match when they have very little knowledge on the subject. Therefore, as far as I am concerned, this thread is closed.

Andy

wedge40 · Jun 15, 2009

Wayne County Hose said:
Hmmm. Interesting. So then why do most of the crimps made by different manufacturers all look so different? How come Weatherhead crimp is longer than an Aeroquip crimp? How can a Gates crimp be 2 piece? How can an Aeroquip crimp have deeper teeth than a Weatherhead crimp? I'm confused. I thought they are all supposed to have the same dimensions?

What was written in that post was not SAE standards but somebody's opinion. I would feel much better if I saw actual SAE standards quoted or a link to the actual standards.

J_J, I am glad that you are keeping an open and honest mind about this. Parker and every other major manufacturer says not to mix and match brands and they do explicitly waive any liability should anyone choose to mix brands. This being said, there are some that choose to just engage in a peeing match when they have very little knowledge on the subject. Therefore, as far as I am concerned, this thread is closed.

Andy

SAE J516 (R) Hydraulic Hose Fittings - IHS, Inc
http://aero-defense.ihs.com/document/abstract/YSSEIBAAAAAAAAAA
Google is your friend. Most SAE standards require a subscription or you have to pay for each document.

BlacknTan · Jun 15, 2009

I'm sorry to see Andy bow out of this thread... I think he's a good guy that offers good advice!

I've learned alot.. maybe more than I ever wanted to know.. but, it's been educational.

Discount Hydraulic Hose · Jun 15, 2009

Wayne County Hose said:
The SAE standard covers the hose and the portion of the fitting that designates it's fitting type. SAE standards do not cover the crimp. SAE standards also do not cover the internal dimensions of the hose. This being the distance between the wire spirals and the inner and outer covers. Within an SAE spec, this will vary. Which is why you should not mix hose and crimp fitting manufacturers.

I haven't read the SAE standards personally, because these documents are very expensive to purchase and they are very closely guarded. Believe me, if this stuff were available for free somewhere, I would have read it by now.

That said, it is my understanding that SAE standards do cover hose dimensions, including inside diameter, outside diameter and braid diameter, among other things. Every time I've asked about this, I have gotten the same answer, and apparently braid diameter is one of the many things specified in the SAE standards.

Now, moving to the crimp....

I believe the SAE specifications for crimp fittings are somewhat loose. The fitting must perform to the hose specifications, and the threaded end must conform to SAE thread specs. But the crimp diameter, crimp length, and specific design of the crimp shell are not specified. In this are, the manufacturers have each developed their own standards and most fall into three basic types of crimp fittings.

Most Weatherhead, Dayco, and Imperial Eastman fittings use an "Over The Cover" or OTC crimp. OTC is not an official term, it's just the term I've heard used most often. Discount Hydraulic Hose.com Braided Series are OTC fittings. Some (but not all) Aeroquip fittings are of this type also.

With OTC fittings, the crimped shell never comes in contact with the wire reinforcement of the hose. The hose is simply compressed between the inner stem and the outer shell of the crimped fitting. Depending on the specific design of the shell, the manufacturer may specify a different crimp diameter, but all of these fittings share a similar design philosophy.

The second popular type of fitting is called "Bite To The Wire" or "Through The Cover" (TTC). Discount Hydraulic Hose.com W Series are TTC fittings, as are most Parker and Aeroquip fittings.

With TTC fittings, the teeth or ridges of the outer shell are designed to penetrate the outer cover of the hose and to make firm contact with the wire reinforcement inside. This is a completely different design and of course, the crimp diameters for TTC fittings will be completely different from the crimp diameters for OTC fittings. Again, the manufacturer's specific design of each fitting will account for variations even with the TTC family of fittings.

A third type, skive fittings, requires you to cut away the outer cover of the hose before attaching the fittings. For obvious reasons, these fittings are not very popular anymore. They are still used in some applications, but most people prefer the ease of assembly that comes with OTC or TTC fittings.

It is the fitting manufacturer's design decisions, and not inconsistent braid depths, that account for the variations in crimp dimensions from one manufacturer to the next. In fact, some manufactures make more than one style of fitting and each style will have it's own crimp specifications. If any of you have seen an Aeroquip catalog, you will know what I'm talking about. They sometimes show two or three different fitting styles that can be used with the same hose.

It needs to be repeated again, check your catalog or other product literature for the correct crimp specifications before crimping. If you can crimp the fitting properly, according to the manufacturer's specifications, there is no reason why a fitting from Manufacturer A cannot go on a hose from Manufacturer B.

If you're wondering why most manufacturers tell you otherwise, ask yourself this. Do they make more money or less money if you can buy your fittings from other sources? Does the price of their fitting go up or go down if it's the only option you have when you need to make a new hose?

DieselPower · Jun 16, 2009

Actually SAE standards are not that expensive. The J517 standard cost for a non-SAE member is $61, they would cost me $48 since I'm a SAE member.

Hydraulic hoses that are claimed to meet SAE J517 standards (e.g. SAE 100R1 and SAE 100R2) need to be designed for, and certified to, the criteria defined by SAE. That criteria includes stringent dimensional tolerances (inside, outside, and braid diameters), compound and reinforcement types, length changes, cold flexibility, and ozone and heat resistance. There are also burst pressure and impulse requirements in J517. Those requirements are for coupled assemblies, and SAE states that "the general and dimensional standards for hydraulic hose fittings are obtained in SAE J526."

J_J · Jun 16, 2009

Just what are SAE standards, and who follows the guide lines. We have all heard about the J numbers, but what does all that mean to the average guy. Just who follows up on the SAE standards, and has them memorized. Some of you can say all you want about the SAE standards, but you and I both know that when we go to a hyd place and order a hose assembly, that they go to fitting A, and cut hose B, and put it in crimper C with a setting of 4, and crimp the hose, and some of them even blow out the hose. I have watched them make up hoses, and no body measures anything. So what standards, other they repeat that process several times a day. Probably anybody can meet the standards if we only knew what they were, and had the time to actually measure things using the proper tool. SAE standards seem to be for engineers, etc, whereby, we the people just want a hose assembly that will work. Most of the hose guys don't even ask what pressure your tractor has, and will sell you a 5000 psi hose, even though there is a 2500 psi hose available, with a better bend radius. How many of you have purchased hoses at TSC? Do you know who made the hoses, and how about the quality, or do you even care? Probably not.

Discount Hydraulic Hose · Jun 16, 2009

J_J said:
Just what are SAE standards, and who follows the guide lines. We have all heard about the J numbers, but what does all that mean to the average guy. Just who follows up on the SAE standards, and has them memorized.

The whole point of having SAE standards is so that the end user doesn't need to memorize them. The SAE standards create a common baseline for manufacturers. When a product meets those standards, the end user doesn't need to worry about every little detail, whether the hose is two-braid or one-braid, whether this manufacturer uses the same materials as that manufacturer, and so on.

SAE 100R2AT hydraulic hose is the most popular hydraulic hose in the world. It's found everywhere, from farm tractors and log splitters to fork lifts and automobile carriers. Because of the SAE standard, you can replace a Weatherhead H425 hose with a Parker 301 hose, and you can do it with confidence because both manufacturers adhere to the standard and both hoses are clearly marked with SAE 100R2AT on the cover.

SAE standards are also the reason that you buy an SAE 37ｰ flare connector from a dozen different manufacturers and be confident that all of them will connect properly to your equipment. You don't have to worry about every detail of every fitting you purchase.

More importantly, you are restricted to buying from the same manufacture to maintain compatibility. A JIC fitting from Parker will interchange with a JIC fitting from Aeroquip, and a dozen other manufacturers. That kind of interchangeability also does one more really good thing for you.

It keeps the price down.

J_J · Jun 16, 2009

BlacknTan said:
I bought generic fittings for hose crimps. I now find that the folks that make up the hoses will only guarantee a fluid tight connection with the equipment they carry... Parker, Weatherhead, Aeroquip etc...with the hose they carry that is matching.. Apparently the crimping machine has settings and specific dimensions that must be met after crimping to insure leak free seals.

How have the folks that have bought fittings from online suppliers such as Discount Hydraulic Hose or others dealt with this problem?

The hose people probably would never know if the crimper was out of adjustment. I don't think they even test your hose, once made. Wouldn't it be nice if they came out and said, we tested your hose to 10,000 lbs. It should last a long time, thanks and come again.

The original poster simply wanted someone to crimp his fittings. But no, since you didn't buy from us, we can't guaranty a no leak hose. You know, liability , etc. Well, if you explained it that way, he probably would have said go ahead and do your best. It seems like the hose guys don't want to say yes, I have enough knowledge to make it work, but will not guaranty it since it is not certified, or J- whatever, or mil-spec, etc. Make the buyer sign a waiver if you have to. . Maybe next time he might buy the preferred stock/brand name stock. Some people just make it hard on other people, just because they can. May be they just don't know how to make it work. Golly gee, I only know how to work machine A. and you are asking something really hard. Life is really tuff sometimes.

DieselPower · Jun 17, 2009

J_J said:
Just what are SAE standards, and who follows the guide lines. We have all heard about the J numbers, but what does all that mean to the average guy. Just who follows up on the SAE standards, and has them memorized. Some of you can say all you want about the SAE standards, but you and I both know that when we go to a hyd place and order a hose assembly, that they go to fitting A, and cut hose B, and put it in crimper C with a setting of 4, and crimp the hose, and some of them even blow out the hose. I have watched them make up hoses, and no body measures anything. So what standards, other they repeat that process several times a day. Probably anybody can meet the standards if we only knew what they were, and had the time to actually measure things using the proper tool. SAE standards seem to be for engineers, etc, whereby, we the people just want a hose assembly that will work. Most of the hose guys don't even ask what pressure your tractor has, and will sell you a 5000 psi hose, even though there is a 2500 psi hose available, with a better bend radius. How many of you have purchased hoses at TSC? Do you know who made the hoses, and how about the quality, or do you even care? Probably not.

Are these the crimp standards your looking for JJ?

HOSE TYPE-----------HOSE SIZE----------CRIMP DIAMETER
SAE 100 R1 AT-------1/4------------------.590"
SAE 100 R1 AT-------3/8------------------.728"
SAE 100 R1 AT-------1/2------------------.870"
SAE 100 R1 AT-------3/4------------------1.15
SAE 100 R1 AT-------1 -------------------1.43"
SAE 100 R2 AT-------1/4------------------.610"
SAE 100 R2 AT-------3/8------------------.780"
SAE 100 R2 AT-------1/2------------------.925"
SAE 100 R2 AT-------3/4------------------1.25"
SAE 100 R2 AT-------1--------------------1.49"

J_J · Jun 17, 2009

DieselPower ,

Thanks. What I am mainly concerned about is that the guys that make up the hoses, know this data. However, I suspect that the manufacture has already did all the measurements on the hose and fittings, and if used with their crimping machine, then it should meet the standards. It also seems logical that the hose guys could make up any hose assembly given any combination of parts, from whomever with the standards set up in the SAE guide lines. I have one of the portable crimping sets. The instructions tell you how to crimp, but I really don't know if it meets any standards.

wedge40 · Jun 17, 2009

This is kind of like perscription drugs. Generic or Name brand. Ya there are some who insist on name brand, but 90% or more get generic. Does the exact same thing only less expensive.

Here is my ultimate rub. Back in the fall I went to a Hydraulic shop to get two 8' 1/2" hoses with 1/2 M-NPT ends and QD on all 4 connectors. It cost me over $150. I calculated DHH cost and it's about $90.00. I'm assuming $7.00/crimp.

Wedge

Discount Hydraulic Hose · Jun 17, 2009

DieselPower said:
Are these the crimp standards your looking for JJ?

HOSE TYPE-----------HOSE SIZE----------CRIMP DIAMETER
SAE 100 R1 AT-------1/4------------------.590"
SAE 100 R1 AT-------3/8------------------.728"
SAE 100 R1 AT-------1/2------------------.870"
SAE 100 R1 AT-------3/4------------------1.15
SAE 100 R1 AT-------1 -------------------1.43"
SAE 100 R2 AT-------1/4------------------.610"
SAE 100 R2 AT-------3/8------------------.780"
SAE 100 R2 AT-------1/2------------------.925"
SAE 100 R2 AT-------3/4------------------1.25"
SAE 100 R2 AT-------1--------------------1.49"

These are crimp specs for which fittings? Weatherhead? Parker? Someone else? I think if we're going to publish crimp specs here, we need to include this information. Otherwise, someone may assume that these are specs for all fittings, and crimp someone else's fittings incorrectly.

Discount Hydraulic Hose · Jun 17, 2009

J_J said:
DieselPower ,

Thanks. What I am mainly concerned about is that the guys that make up the hoses, know this data. However, I suspect that the manufacture has already did all the measurements on the hose and fittings, and if used with their crimping machine, then it should meet the standards. It also seems logical that the hose guys could make up any hose assembly given any combination of parts, from whomever with the standards set up in the SAE guide lines. I have one of the portable crimping sets. The instructions tell you how to crimp, but I really don't know if it meets any standards.

JJ,

The crimp diameter isn't really part of the SAE standards. That information is product specific. Crimp diameter for a Weatherhead U Series fitting will be different from a Parker 43 Series fitting, even if both fittings are on the same hose. That is why you need to reference the crimp specifications supplied in the manufacturer's catalog.

Whether or not your equipment can crimp to these specifications will depend on which equipment you have. If you have "positive stop" crimp, such as the ones from Weatherhead or Parker, you choose the correct die and spacer ring from provided chart, and that combination will crimp to a pre-determined diameter which should be correct for that fitting. In most cases, the dies and spacer rings available for this crimper will only crimp fittings from one manufacturer. Unless you can buy a generic "clone" that is interchangeable, your Weatherhead crimper will only crimp Weatherhead fittings. In the same way, your Parker crimper will only crimp Parker fittings.

Some fittings manufacturers offer "conversion kits" that allow their fittings to be crimped with a crimper by another manufacturer. For example, the Weatherhead catalog includes conversion kits for some Dayco, Gates and Parker crimpers to crimp Weatherhead fittings. Conversely, Parker has conversion kits available for certain Weatherhead and Gates crimpers.

Of course, if you have any adjustable crimper with a micrometer, you can adjust it to crimp to whatever diameter you need. You don't need spacer rings or conversion kits. This is why an adjustable crimper will be able to crimp a wider variety of fittings from many different manufacturers. Most crimpers from Aeroquip, Gates, Dayco and DHH are fully adjustable.