How is this not robbery?

[whiskywizard]

I found it an interesting discussion. Sure, there was disagreement, but there were some good points raised for a few different viewpoints.

 

[beppington]

I found it an interesting discussion. Sure, there was disagreement, but there were some good points raised for a few different viewpoints.

Yeah, I don't think we all to have agree in order to discuss something. Actually, what's the point of discussing something if we all agree? :laughing: (other than just factual question & answer)

 

[Duffster]

I had ask that this thread be shut down, but no one honored my request.

Where are the moderators.

If you don't like the heat stay out of the kitchen. :laughing:

 

[Bird]

I had ask that this thread be shut down, but no one honored my request.

Where are the moderators.

J J, I think it's been an interesting discussion and my first opinion was that you agreed to a price, so you had no complaint. However, others in the business have indicated that the flat rate book did NOT call for 3 hours, so it does appear that you were, or at least may have been, cheated. Although $45 a hour is an unheard of low price in this day and age.

As for closing the thread . . . I don't see any violation of rules that would necessitate closing it. However, I am a moderator and I did not close it simply because I participated in the discussion. I've told the other moderators to feel free to close it and/or remove any of my posts if they think I, or anyone else, got out of line.

If you still think it should be closed, click on the little red triangle in the lower left corner of this, or any other post, and type that request. That will send a message to each and every one of the moderators to see what action they deem advisable.

 

[Redbug]

Well, I have to commend J J for his values and sticking up for what he believes. I have enjoyed this thread and the different opinions, (even though I did not agree with many of them). Stick to your guns, J J!!

 

[MFRED]

I kinda enjoyed reading this, I think it would be a shame to see it closed.

I enjoy reading different views on a subject and sometimes it makes me rethink my own view. (though mine is always right)

J J has a valid point with the justification of the price by the use of 3 hours labor. I think more communication between the repair facility would have clarified this. They shouldn't have used 3 hours as justification, just set a price & let the customer decide if the service is worth the price.

Hourly charge, to me, doesn't mean as much as the end cost. Just the fact that the service provided equaled the amount paid.

I don't see how a tech beating flat rate & the shop making money is any worse than some of the other occupations that inflate pricing & try to justify it.

I've never had a free visit at the dentist, doctor or lawyer because something wasn't done right the first time.

 

[Short Game]

I only read the first two and the last two pages of this thread. I am thankful I can do many repairs myself. I freak out when there is a computer chip in the thing somewhere, or say the first step to fix a leaking heater core is, "remove steering wheel," and then comes the dashboard. I can barely work on my '98 Honda. Like a friend of mine says, "I can handle costs, but I can't take overhead." My late Wobbly friend used to say, "in America (that goes for just about anywhere now), things are made to be sold, and once they've done that, they've served their purpose." Now we can add service and repair to that. I once worked with a guy who, as a joke, had cards printed up, "Carpenters from H*ll, shut up, give us your money, we're doing this our way." Mostly though, if I can't fix something myself, I can't afford to have it. It's scary, but it's the way it is for me.

It comes down to the fact that the customer usually must take what he or she gets, and the seller/servicer believes there is a constitutional right to a profit on investment (and have legislators who are not adverse to that assumption).

 

[J_J]

I started this thread, with my observations about the situation. It also seems like I should say whether it should stop, because although most have already commented what they think, and some wanted to argue about just anything, and tell other people that they were wrong and to say , well you agreed to the estimate. I really had no way to know how true it was. Is there a fair playing field, I don't know, but there should be.

DON'T ANYBODY TELL ME THE ESTIMATE IS A TRUE ESTIMATE OF LABOR, TIME, AND PARTS.

I think we all know how the process works, you need it they fix it, and you pay.

I just don't like the math they used or anybody method to deceive.

I have paid for many things I needed fixing, and sometimes I had to mediate the price based on certain facts and what was accomplished on the job. Sometimes I got the price reduced, but most times I paid, because they used the book as though the hours and prices were written in stone.

One does not always know that they are being cheated or ripped off. You find out later that everything you wanted done and paid for, was not done.

I understand people have to make a living, but fairly, and not take advantage of the unknowing.

The parts price range went from $46 to $120. That is if I purchased them. No telling what they shop cost was if purchased through a vender.

I hope some can learn from all this, and only place your trust in those you know, and suspect all others. Always try and pay by credit card . I think you know why.

[ JJ, I replaced the wiper motor, and it only took me about 1 hour, so I am only going charge you the parts cost plus 1 hour of labor. ] I can dream, can't I.

 

[Short Game]

Years ago, as I was just another hippie struggling from job to job (you remember the Nixon and Ford days, don't you?), I started doing freelance mechanic type work for $7/hr. I got so many jobs redoing other mechanics' work, seeing that parts customers bought were not in there when I got inside. It was evident people were sometimes being cheated. I've always been honest to a fault. After a year or so of doing this kind of work, with just my tools and no shop, I got so worried that I would screw up a job, and the screw-up would cost more than I would make on ten jobs. I was losing sleep. Though I never did make that costly mistake, I quit doing that kind of work. Then I started sleeping better again. Now my friends bring me their rigs and I fix them for nothing if it's within my capability. I just like to help people. Somehow, I think I got off on the wrong planet.

Some of the pros have a type of insurance against costly screw-ups: they just lie. I've noticed that some doctors and lawyers use that same system. It's called, "CYA." If I find someone who proves to be honest, they are almost an instant friend, from my point of view.

 

[Qapla]

Tell us how would you level the playing field pray tell?????

OK. Let's look at it from a "level" playing field. Something that is fair for both parties.

When you take the vehicle into the shop they diagnose the problem. Some shops charge for this, some do not. Their choice. If you don't want to pay for the diagnostics, take it to a shop that does not charge or one that
"credits" the diagnostic charge when the work is done.

After the problem has been diagnosed, that is where this situation comes into play (the "flat rate" as opposed to anything else).

Let the shop use the book. Look up the job and give the quote. However, isn't this called an "ESTIMATE"?

Do the job. If it takes far less time then the book says, like taking only 1 hour to do a "book" time of 3 hours, then charge accordingly. Just because you gave a quote for an "estimated" price does not mean you HAVE to charge that.

You could charge less, since you took way less time.

Now, for those times when it takes longer, there is already something in place for that (at least there is here). On all the estimates I have gotten (or seen, it is required here by law) there is a statement that says they can exceed the estimate by XXX dollars if needed without having to contact you before they do the repair. However, it is going to cost above the increased amount, they have to contact you before they continue to either get your permission or stop the work.

This seems like a no brainer ... it is much more fair for both sides.

BTW - No, I do not turn wrenches for a living. However, I have worked as a self-employed person since the early 1970's. I have done several different types of work over the years and most of them have been the type where I have to give "estimates". I do not use a "book" for the price, but I do have to use formulas or experience for the estimates.

When I find that a job is easier then I thought, I do charge less. This makes the customer very happy and I feel better, too. It also gets me more referral business. Word-of-mouth is so important.

 

[LD1]

When I find that a job is easier then I thought, I do charge less. This makes the customer very happy and I feel better, too. It also gets me more referral business. Word-of-mouth is so important.

But when a job takes longer than expected, what does the customer think about that?

Or what about when you charge that XXXX dollar amount allowed over without contacting them? Say, you quoted $100 and charged them $120?

 

[Deere Dude]

But when a job takes longer than expected, what does the customer think about that?

Or what about when you charge that XXXX dollar amount allowed over without contacting them? Say, you quoted $100 and charged them $120?

That's easy. If it takes you longer and you want to charge him more, just throw a little water on your face and a little dirt on the sleeve before he comes in and complain about how tough it was :laughing:
If you want to charge him more, it's not a good idea to get done in a third of the time.

 

[J_J]

Whatever the rules are for exceeding the time would apply such as if 10 % over, call the customer, and if in some states, if $50 more than the estimate, call the customer.

Here is the kicker, and that is how many people/shops want to get paid less than the estimate, even if it is wrong.

You have to ask yourself, how much honest is honest.

Does anyone ever recompute the bill for the estimate they gave?

Seems like it is always gravy for the shop, and none for the customer.

I think all customers would like an honest estimate, but we don't always know when we are getting one.

I think anyone that knows the shop labor rate, and and the quoted time to fix, plus parts would know a little something, so in my case, if the shop did in fact get $90 per hour, and quoted me a 3 hour change out for the wiper, It doesn't even sound right, and I question the time, and he said that is what the book said. That $90 shop time for the job would be way out of line $90 times 3, plus the part, could have been $75 if obtained from a dealer.

Again, how honest is honest, or is it best estimate.

Is there any reason that if the estimate can go over the estimate, that the estimate can be less, and therefore a lesser amount that quoted, with the result that the customer will pay less than the original estimated quote.

Do any of you pay for guess work verses actual work?

I have always assumed the book was used as a reference, but not necessarily correct and final.

We all want justice.

 

[LD1]

If you want to charge him more, it's not a good idea to get done in a third of the time.

:confused2::confused2::confused2::confused2:

My post was in response to qapla solution to "level the playing field"

I am talking about how to go about charging more (when it takes MORE than book time) and NOT having an upset customer, NOT just charging more in general.

It all comes down to basics. If a customer comes into the shop for a repair, and you dont give him a quote, only tell him I charge XX per hour and I will bill you for however long it takes, 99% of them are going to ask "how long do you think it will take?"

That is why "book-time" is a very usefull tool vs the later. Because it allows ALL shops across the country to charge the same hours per job. (or are at least supposed to).

The following are the MAJOR benefits of book time:

1. Keeps ALL shops on a level playing field with eachother. If you price a repair at several different facilities, the ONLY difference should be in labor rate. $75-120/hr is about the norm.

2. Gives the ability to give the customer a solid qoute of XX price to do job YY. Regardless of time involved. Just a flat price for the job at hand.

3. Allows the better techs to make more than the not-so-good techs.

The following are some problems in a system without book time, and only an hourly rate they charge for ACTUAL hours:

1. Customer will accuse you of taking your time and milking the clock. If you try to be timley, they will say you rushed it.

2. Cannont give a customer a firm quote. Imagine you are a shop owner with two employees. One is great, the other is slower. A customer calls for a quote. The better guy can do the job in 2hrs, the slower guy takes 3hrs. How do you quote the job? Is it fair that the customer that gets the slower-not-as-good tech has to pay more than the other guy that gets luckey to get the good tech??

3. Is if fair that the better tech gets paid less to install the same part as the slower guy?

4. As a business owner, how do you pay your employees so that they remail productive, instead of "milking" their time.

5. In general, in a system like this, there is NO incentive for either the tech OR shop owner to be efficent and productive. What about a slow day, with only a few jobs. Normally may only take 3 hours. Hey' why not milk them out all day??

Bottom line, IMO, book-time is the fairest way for ALL parties involved. The customer should not even be informed of what the "book time" is. All it is, is a way for the dealer to quote a price for the job at hand.

But what brought this all about was the fact that the shop fudged up the book time by double. Maybe that explains their 1/2 priced labor rate??? Maybe not. But If they had told JJ book-time was 1.5hrs, and they finished in ~1 hr and for the agreed upon price, I dont think this thread would have even been started. But that is just IMHO.

 

[LD1]

Is there any reason that if the estimate can go over the estimate, that the estimate can be less, and therefore a lesser amount that quoted, with the result that the customer will pay less than the original estimated quote.

Simple answer to that is, it doesnt happen at ANY of the shops I have dealt with, or known people who work at.

The ONLY reason an estimate goes up around here, is because there was something else wrong, in ADDITION to what was quoted.

For example, you are qouted a price to replace a PS pump because it is bad. While they are working on it, they discover that the rack and tierod ends are also bad. They call you, explain to you, you agree, price goes up. Because there is more parts and labor involved.

BUT, if they ONLY replace the PS pump, and all worst case scenerios happen, broken bolts, seized, etc, even if they go over on hrs, they still only charge the quoted price in the beginning.

That is why some take less than book time, and they dont charge less. Because when they go over, they dont charge more.

At least that is the case around here. I cant speak for all shops though.

 

[Short Game]

It seems I can remember at least one national chain of auto service establishments getting caught by investigative journalists (remember investigative journalists?) for systematically cheating customers. It was a major transmission repair company, and the reporters disconnected a vacuum line to their automatic transmission and drove to one shop after another. At every shop, the diagnosis was a rebuild was needed. They tried one corner gas station where the attendant looked under the car and reached in and slipped the hose back on and sent them on their way, no charge.

I guess it always comes down to caveat emptor, let the buyer beware.

Hamilton, W.H. "The Ancient Maxim Caveat Emptor" (1931) 40 Yale Law Journal 1133, argues that caveat emptor never had any place in Roman law, civil law, or lex mercatoria and was probably a mistake when implemented into the common law. Rather, there was a duty of good faith.

It would be nice, eh?

 

[whiskywizard]

Sometimes, the shop installs that new widget - in this case it's a wiper motor - and the widget dies in a week.

The supplier of the widget stands behind the failed product and offers a replacement. But, the widget supplier doesn't pay for another round of Re&Re. He only comes good for the replacement parts.

And the average customer has trouble accepting further expense for a fix that in his mind is already complete. So who pays?

The cost for the repeat Re&Re gets covered by the installer. To survive, he has to build some cushion into the original charge to cover himself, no?

 

[FredH]

JJ : As per My first post , I know what you are talking about thus the shop I go to is the one I go to . WHY ? For the same reason's you are stating . I have several shop's here in this area to choose from , but the one I go with has treated me right from the start over these last 12 years . Although they give rough estimates on time , They always over estimate , then when the job is done they have the actual time . As per my first post they use a time clock for each work order .

I have had several repairs were they took longer than estimated , BUT only charged me what they initially estimated . These repairs included replacing my truck radiator which every attachment clip was so corroded that they ended up breaking every one and replaced . Instead of charging actual time which was like 7.25 hours , they charge their estimate of 5 hours and sold me the 16 new attachment clips for their cost rather than retail .

I am having EGR sensor problems on my semi , Three times now they have hooked up the computer and ran error codes for free . Yesterday the mechanic who rebuilt my engine , rummaged through his toolbox and gave my wife a $ 50 barometric sensor for free rather than have her buy a different sensor that he did not think was the problem .

Compare that to a service facility down south that replaced a brake canister . 1.5 hours labor and he spent most of his time doing nothing or walking back and forth between truck and toolbox . But on the road , so I was stuck , they just will not get my business again .

Fred H.

 

[brin]

Whatever the rules are for exceeding the time would apply such as if 10 % over, call the customer, and if in some states, if $50 more than the estimate, call the customer.

Here is the kicker, and that is how many people want to get paid less than the estimate, even if it is wrong.

You have to ask yourself, how much honest is honest.

Does anyone ever recompute the bill for the estimate they gave?

Seems like it is always gravy for the shop, and none for the customer.

I think all customers would like an honest estimate, but we don't always know when we are getting one.

I think anyone that knows the shop labor rate, and and the quoted time to fix, plus parts would know a little something, so in my case, if the shop did in fact get $90 per hour, and quoted me a 3 hour change out for the wiper, It doesn't even sound right, and I question the time, and he said that is what the book said. That $90 shop time for the job would be way out of line $90 times 3, plus the part, could have been $75 if obtained from a dealer.

Again, how honest is honest, or is it best estimate.

Is there any reason that if the estimate can go over the estimate, that the estimate can be less, and therefore a lesser amount that quoted, with the result that the customer will pay less than the original estimated quote.

Do any of you pay for guess work verses actual work?

I have always assumed the book was used as a reference, but not necessarily correct and final.

We all want justice.

JJ - I take our vehicles to our local Independently owned Tire and Auto shop for tires and mechanical work and drop them off..They will always call me with an estimate and I will discuss it with them and then they go ahead and as many times as not the charge ends up being sometimes substantially less than they had estimated and they always charge me the lower actual cost ...So they might estimate $300.00 for what they think the problem could be but then they find out it was something much more minor and my actual bill might be $65.00...they are honest folks and I believe that is what you are suggesting and I agree..

 

[Bird]

Here is the kicker, and that is how many people want to get paid less than the estimate, even if it is wrong.

You have to ask yourself, how much honest is honest.

Does anyone ever recompute the bill for the estimate they gave?

Seems like it is always gravy for the shop, and none for the customer.

I think all customers would like an honest estimate, but we don't always know when we are getting one.

That may be true in some cases, but certainly not all. I, personally, never charged a nickel more than the "estimate" but I've sure charged less. I remember one time in 1991, in Anchorage, that I gave a guy a price for doing several things to his pickup. But I was out of the office when he came to get the truck and that night, going through the invoices, I found that that he had been charged $3 more than the price I gave him. Turned out his truck required a different, and slightly more expensive, fan belt than the one I used for my calculations. The guy had not complained at all about the price, but I did call him to tell him we owed him $3.

We did a lot of front end alignments and I gave customers the price in advance, but a few times when we got the vehicle on the alignment machine, we found it really didn't need anything, so no charge.