Lightning strike, well pump box failed

[WinterDeere]

It's hard to argue with the simplicity and decades-long history of reliable operation from a plain old pressure switch and expansion tank, when properly sized and configured. There are endless theories on why CSV's and VFD's should be better, but I've honestly never felt any inclination to switch away from what just keeps working reliably two decades at a time, and is an easy quick repair when it eventually reaches end of life.

After reading two more pages of posts on the CSV, and deciding to go have a look at it, I'm ammending my prior comment. This actually looks like something from which I could benefit, as we have a relatively small expansion tank (layout was sort of "locked in" by available space) for our irrigation system demands.

We have an hour of near-constant usage every morning, through which our well pump cycles several times 10 - 12 times. It has never been a problem, our last well pump lasted more than 20 years (maybe even 30 years?), and the present one is still doing fine at 15 years. But now we have teens taking long showers, which only adds to the cycling.

So while no dire emergency, the CSV does appear to be an easy install from which we could probably benefit. But what's not clear from the explanation on the web site or the PBS video, is how you control pressure in the ABS line dropped into the well casing. I'd guess there's probably a bypass in the pump itself, but given my line is probably 50 years old and has never seen over 60 PSI topside (=125 PSI at 150 ft depth), I'm not sure I want to subject it to whatever the bypass pressure is set at, or the possibility of a single point configuration. In a normal system, the primary pressure switch located at the bladder ensures the line never exceeds that pressure plus vertical rise.

 

[Valveman]

I don't think they are field adjustable. If I was going to use them, I think it would be in the well, not in the house. I worry about the excessive back pressure they put on the trench line.

The back pressure from a CSV is completely dependent on how much pressure the pump can build, less the depth to the static water level. Many years ago I would occasionally see 100# poly pipe in the trench line. Some really old houses may still have that. But 160# or higher is the pressure rating for most underground pipe. Even then, the burst pressure of pipe is 2-5 times the rated pressure. There is also a limit to how much back pressure the CSV can handle. With the in well CSV125 the limit is 150 PSI. With the CSV1A the limit is 400 PSI. But if the pump builds more back pressure than about 150 PSI, the pump itself is WAY oversized. Sometimes a pump made for 600' deep will be incorrectly installed in a well with a water level of say 50'. That is why we like to know the pump size so we can check the back pressure.

Back pressure up to about 150 PSI is rarely a bad thing for the trench line. As a matter of fact a 150 PSI back pressure from a CSV can be easier on the trench line than a system without a CSV cycling between just 40 and 60 PSI. The water hammer that happens when a pump is started or stopped can put many times more pressure on the entire system, especially the trench line, than the pump is even capable of building. Any extra check valves other than the one on the pump can further accentuate the pressure spikes from water hammer. A pump with a max pressure of120-150 PSI, which is common, can cause water hammer spikes in pressure over 300 PSI when the system is cycling on and off between 40 and 60 PSI.

A system controlled by a CSV has no water hammer. The CSV can provide a mechanical soft start and soft stop, making the pump start and stop at 1 GPM, not full pump flow rate. A 150 PSI back pressure from a CSV can be more gentle on the trench line than a system without a CSV working between 40 and 60 PSI.

Just like a pump, sizing and installing a CSV correctly is important. Back pressure is about the only concern. Making sure the back pressure from the pump cannot exceed the pressure rating of the pipe in the trench line, means the CSV can be safely installed in the house instead of the well. In the 30 something years I have been installing Cycle Stop Valves I have seen fewer water line breaks than I can count with one hand. All of those line breaks were because of faulty piping that already needed repair, the CSV just pointed out where the weak point was.

The concern about back pressure from a CSV is over sensitized by the pump manufacturers. After Blacklisting the CSV as a disruptive product in 1994 because it "makes pumps last longer and uses smaller pressure tanks", pump manufacturers propagandize that back pressure is a bad thing. That is really all they got. There are absolutely no flies in the ointment of a Cycle Stop Valve, including back pressure on the trench line, so they try to manufacture one. At any open house or trade show you will hear over and over, "CSV bad, VFD good". I do not blame pump manufacturers for disparaging the CSV at every opportunity. If there was a CSV controlling every pump, it could cut replacement pump sales by 90% and they know it.

 

[Valveman]

After reading two more pages of posts on the CSV, and deciding to go have a look at it, I'm ammending my prior comment. This actually looks like something from which I could benefit, as we have a relatively small expansion tank (layout was sort of "locked in" by available space) for our irrigation system demands.

We have an hour of near-constant usage every morning, through which our well pump cycles several times 10 - 12 times. It has never been a problem, our last well pump lasted more than 20 years (maybe even 30 years?), and the present one is still doing fine at 15 years. But now we have teens taking long showers, which only adds to the cycling.

So while no dire emergency, the CSV does appear to be an easy install from which we could probably benefit. But what's not clear from the explanation on the web site or the PBS video, is how you control pressure in the ABS line dropped into the well casing. I'd guess there's probably a bypass in the pump itself, but given my line is probably 50 years old and has never seen over 60 PSI topside (=125 PSI at 150 ft depth), I'm not sure I want to subject it to whatever the bypass pressure is set at, or the possibility of a single point configuration. In a normal system, the primary pressure switch located at the bladder ensures the line never exceeds that pressure plus vertical rise.

I can help you figure out what size pump you have and how much back pressure it can build. Most pumps only build about 100 PSI back pressure. Again, the back pressure is probably less stress on your pipe than when that pump is cycling on and off.

 

[steve tym]

I've never heard anybody badmouth a CSV, manufacturers ect. We install pumps regularly that will produce hundreds of pounds of pressure, and need to be that way.

 

[Valveman]

I've never heard anybody badmouth a CSV, manufacturers ect. We install pumps regularly that will produce hundreds of pounds of pressure, and need to be that way.

Well it is very common to hear. I am always being told the pump supplier said the "back pressure will burn up the pump", "the pump manufacturer won't honor their warranty if you use a Cycle Stop Valve", or "CSV waste energy". It has been a constant propaganda battle for 30 years, dissing the CSV to promote the more profitable VFD.

While there are pumps in systems that build more pressure than the CSV and/or the trench line can handle, they are few and far between. In some areas with low producing deep wells, they may need to set a pump at 600', and the pump will draw the well down from 50' to 550'. With such a variation is pumping level, the back pressure from a CSV at the surface can change as much as 200 PSI. This is more than the trench line can handle. But it can still be done with two CSV1A at the well head. Using two Cycle Stop Valves can stair step the back back pressure between two valves and the CSV's can handle it no problem. The CSV's would need to be at the well head as the trench line cannot handle 200+ PSI. But is has been proven the pump will last longer with a CSV keeping it from cycling even with the high back pressure.

However, many of these low producing wells use a cistern and booster pump instead. In these cases the trench line pressure is not an issue. I would like to see the specific details such as static level and pumping level so I could calculate trench line pressure for your applications, as it is rare for any well to not be able to utilize a CSV.

 

[steve tym]

In the NorthEast, we routinely see exactly that, pumps set to 600' with water levels that range from 50 to 600'. Interesting concept with two of them. High back pressure shouldn't do harm to the pump, unless you overload the thrust bearing. Head pressure on the pump probably doesn't drop the amps by an amp or so.

 

[Valveman]

Yeah, you don't get much amp drop from most 5-7 GPM pumps. But it also depends on the brand of pump. This one drops from 1.9HP to 1HP at 1 GPM flow. Even with a 7 GPM pump the amps will drop nearly 50%. Shut off head on this pump is about 720' or 311 PSI. Deduct the 50' or 22 PSI for the 50' lift from the static level and the back pressure from a CSV would be 289 PSI. Yes, 289 PSI is more than the trench line can handle and more than one CSV1A valve can handle. But it isn't enough back pressure to overload the thrust bearing. Adding two CSV1A valves at the well head could stair step the pressure down from 289 PSI to the 50 PSI needed when using a 40/60 switch. The first CSV1A sees the 289 PSI coming in and is set to deliver 150 PSI out. The second CSV1A sees the 150 PSI coming in and reduces it to the 50 PSI needed and neither CSV sees more pressure differential than it can handle.

While constant pressure, soft stop, and running cooler at reduced amps from a CSV are good things. It is not hard to add a large enough pressure tank to a 5 or 7 GPM pump to reduce the cycling and not use a CSV. If the well is for house use only a CSV may not be that useful other than to deliver constant pressure. But if the well is used for irrigation, heat pump, or any long term uses of water the CSV, or two if needed, can be just as important for a 7 GPM pump as a 70 or 700 GPM pump.

 

[CPTKILLER]

I had a similar problem on a Saturday night. I struggled with the problem that night and on Sunday morning with no success.

The solution was calling a local water well repair service that showed up Sunday afternoon. The solution was relatively straightforward but took someone with training and experience to repair it.

The water was for for the household and watering my goat herd. It was critical.

LESSONS LEARNED

Be prepared ahead of time and locate your nearest water well repair service.

 

[Valveman]

I had a similar problem on a Saturday night. I struggled with the problem that night and on Sunday morning with no success.

The solution was calling a local water well repair service that showed up Sunday afternoon. The solution was relatively straightforward but took someone with training and experience to repair it.

The water was for for the household and watering my goat herd. It was critical.

LESSONS LEARNED

Be prepared ahead of time and locate your nearest water well repair service.

Sorry for your problem and glad you got it fixed. But even knowing who and where a good pump service company is doesn't guarantee the goats get water. You should always find out what the problem was and how it was resolved. Learning how to replace a simple start capacitor or pressure switch can mean the difference between the goats getting water over a holiday weekend or not. In some areas it is really hard to find a good pump service company, which is why many people use forums like this to learn how to do it themselves.

 

[WoodChuckDad]

The tank was delivered thursday. I picked up some parts and fittings need on the way home from a wedding today. Depending on weather, I may work on it tomorrow. That tank paint is definitely blue.

 

[WoodChuckDad]

I am trying to get my tank installed but because I am putting in a filter and using expansion pex, I have had to order some specialized fittings and I managed to order cpvc adapter instead of pvc adapter and my local stores did not have anything I could use to bridge the gap. So I am waiting on the delivery of the rest of the stuff I need. This has dragged on far longer than I wanted it to.

 

[steve tym]

And that's why you hire people to do stuff like this. Yes they will charge you more, but the job would have been done a long time ago and done right.

 

[IXLR8]

And that's why you hire people to do stuff like this. Yes they will charge you more, but the job would have been done a long time ago and done right.

I could hire folks here, but for most of them I would have to go out and 'fix' what they 'fixed', so I do it myself. Around here, finding someone who actually knows what they are doing is tough to do.

 

[steve tym]

If a customer of mine has to fix what we fixed, I'd be embarrased and really want the opertunity to make it right. (Sorry, I can run a business but sure as hell can't spell).

 

[Valveman]

Unfortunately, finding a good pump man has become difficult if not impossible in many places. The DIY market for pumps has become enormous because people cannot count on anyone local knowing what they are doing. A good pump man is worth his weight in gold. But most these days have no idea how pumps work. In their defense most are being taught they do not need to know how pumps work, only how to install electronic equipment like VFD's. Pump manufacturers don't want them to really understand pumps, just install the most expensive and shortest lived equipment like they teach them to install. Even when there is a pump man available in the area I always recommend doing the research themselves anyway. Being able to tell the pump man they don't want the expensive short lived equipment and had rather have something long lasting, dependable, and affordable is a smart thing to do. There are contractors who want to treat the customers right. But there are many who just want to sell the most expensive and short lived pumps and controls they can. This makes more money for the contractor but is not good for the consumer. It is the same with anything. Either be informed or suffer the consequences.

 

[WoodChuckDad]

And that's why you hire people to do stuff like this. Yes they will charge you more, but the job would have been done a long time ago and done right.

Steve, I built the house myself. Cement foundation, electrical sub panels, standing seam metal roof and drywall are what I subbed out. Everything else, for better or worse, my wife and I built ourselves. I had the well drilled in 2017 or 2018. I installed the pump myself, in 2022. I know most people hire things out, and I don’t begrudge anyone for doing that. But if I didn’t, I would still be living in the suburbs , paying $700 to have a toilet installed.
There might be some tribulations and stupidity tax applied to my way of doing it, but in the long run, I feel the benefits. I was fortunate enough that a couple guys from tractor by net came and helped me out when I was struggling a couple times.

I finally got everything together and today, I installed the pressure tank.
I used a twist2clean debris filter and put in another ball valve to isolate the new tank, if I need to work on it. No leaks and flushing the toilet went from 4-5 pump cycles to 1. Part of that issue was debris getting into the lines and gumming up the toilet mechanics. I suspect frequent cycles caused the pump to twist a bit on the line and bang into the wall of the well, stirring

up sand, etc. I am pleased with the outcome.
Valveman, thanks for taking an interest and weighing in on this.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

My Grandfather & Dad built the house I grew up in and did everything, plumbing, wiring, septic, heating, cabinetry, roof. The house built in 1948 & my 98 yo Mother still lives in.
Years ago people did most everything themselves and I learned a lot and miss both. It's was like having two fathers.
Sad young people today missed out on that.

 

[IXLR8]

Steve, I built the house myself. Cement foundation, electrical sub panels, standing seam metal roof and drywall are what I subbed out. Everything else, for better or worse, my wife and I built ourselves. I had the well drilled in 2017 or 2018. I installed the pump myself, in 2022. I know most people hire things out, and I don’t begrudge anyone for doing that. But if I didn’t, I would still be living in the suburbs , paying $700 to have a toilet installed.
There might be some tribulations and stupidity tax applied to my way of doing it, but in the long run, I feel the benefits. I was fortunate enough that a couple guys from tractor by net came and helped me out when I was struggling a couple times.

I finally got everything together and today, I installed the pressure tank.
I used a twist2clean debris filter and put in another ball valve to isolate the new tank, if I need to work on it. No leaks and flushing the toilet went from 4-5 pump cycles to 1. Part of that issue was debris getting into the lines and gumming up the toilet mechanics. I suspect frequent cycles caused the pump to twist a bit on the line and bang into the wall of the well, stirring View attachment 3479787
up sand, etc. I am pleased with the outcome.
Valveman, thanks for taking an interest and weighing in on this.

So your new blue Welltrol tank is basically in parallel with the old beige tank. You just added more storage capacity and now it is working like you want it to? I'm still thinking about adding a CSV to my system and I'm thinking I'm just going to use the existing tank. As long as I can get the misses to quit bit%^&ing about the variable water pressure when she is showering.

 

[steve tym]

Steve, I built the house myself. Cement foundation, electrical sub panels, standing seam metal roof and drywall are what I subbed out. Everything else, for better or worse, my wife and I built ourselves. I had the well drilled in 2017 or 2018. I installed the pump myself, in 2022. I know most people hire things out, and I don’t begrudge anyone for doing that. But if I didn’t, I would still be living in the suburbs , paying $700 to have a toilet installed.
There might be some tribulations and stupidity tax applied to my way of doing it, but in the long run, I feel the benefits. I was fortunate enough that a couple guys from tractor by net came and helped me out when I was struggling a couple times.

I finally got everything together and today, I installed the pressure tank.
I used a twist2clean debris filter and put in another ball valve to isolate the new tank, if I need to work on it. No leaks and flushing the toilet went from 4-5 pump cycles to 1. Part of that issue was debris getting into the lines and gumming up the toilet mechanics. I suspect frequent cycles caused the pump to twist a bit on the line and bang into the wall of the well, stirring View attachment 3479787
up sand, etc. I am pleased with the outcome.
Valveman, thanks for taking an interest and weighing in on this.

This crowd does seem much more capable than a lot of my customers, I guess it goes with the territory. If you own a tractor, you can usually turn a wrench.

 

[ponytug]

We ran out of water last week. The pump is fine, but it turns out the snazzy LittelFuse pump monitor / controller died. Whether the lightning storm shortly after it last pumped was the cause, I don't know, but the timing was almost exactly when @WoodChuckDad started this thread. I had to laugh at the timing. (Yes, we got by on water stored in our tanks for six weeks, without realizing that we were out of water.)

We have a new controller installed and I'm off to find and buy a compatible surge protector.

All the best,

Peter