Methods used for setting post?

[Megado]

I'm hoping to start a Monitor style pole barn this spring and was curious to see how most of you set your post, along with the type of backfill used (concrete, sand, clay, etc)? Looking at 36'x30' or perhaps 36'x36' with 6"x8" PT post. I'm in S.E. Texas where freezing or frost line is not an issue.

Thanks in advance for thoughts or advice!

Jim H.

 

[rexcramer]

Here in the freeze belt I used 12" diameter concrete "cookies" in the bottom of my post holes which had to be 42" deep. The posts set on top of the cookie and then I put 100# on concrete mix in to set the post firmly. Fill the rest with sand.

 

[RussMan]

I'm hoping to start a Monitor style pole barn this spring and was curious to see how most of you set your post, along with the type of backfill used (concrete, sand, clay, etc)? Looking at 36'x30' or perhaps 36'x36' with 6"x8" PT post. I'm in S.E. Texas where freezing or frost line is not an issue.

Thanks in advance for thoughts or advice!

Jim H.

Megado, I am going to build a similar barn this summer, so am curious to know your plans? Do you have a loft? Where did you find plans (or are you just building as yu go?)

 

[Erik_in_Hoyt]

I've done it 2 ways - first by drilling a hole in my post to put a chunk of rebar in then pouring concrete around it to within about 6" of the surface - then filling the rest with backfill. (painted the parts of the post going in the ground with rubberized undercoating) holes were about 3' deep with gravel on the bottom.

second was to use an 8" sonotube to pour a concrete pier then used a simpson post anchor to attach the pole where it's above ground and water can't collect to rot it. (yes, even green treated will eventually rot - at least in NE Ks clay...) poured concrete, stuck in 4 pieces of #4 rebar to help it survive minor cracks, and the stuff that oozed out the bottom gave me my "cookie" effect. filled hole with dirt after curing and tamped it down with rock bar.

both methods have survived 70+mph winds in summer storms.

 

[Megado]

Russman - As of now I'm drafting up a set of drawings that I'll build off of. Basically everything going into the drawings is from research I've done on TBN. As we all know, this site is the best thing since sliced bread (as the saying goes). The wealth of knowledge is vast and I've learned a tremendous amount just thumbing through the various threads. My biggest problem at the moment is me suffering from analysis paralysis. I've been so busy analyzing every aspect of building this barn that nothing has gotten started. My wife finally laid down the law and said to get things rolling or she'll go find someone to put it up for her. Yikes! I've been following the thread by SteelDust Want to see yet another pole building? - Page 3 - TractorByNet.com and really like what he's done so far. Hopefully he'll update soon with new photos and progress report. To answer your question though...yes I do plan on having a loft. Will be used mainly for misc storage since horse stalls and hay storage are not in the picture at the moment.

I was talking with a buddy contractor today and posed my same question to him to get his ideas on setting post. He mentioned something that I hadn't thought of and figured I'd throw it out there to see if anyone had any experience or thoughts on it. He said that he actually paints on or coats the in-ground portion of his PT post with roofing tar before setting them in place as an extra means of rot protection. Logically that makes sense. Has anyone done this?

Thanks for the replies so far...

Jim H.

 

[Erik_in_Hoyt]

megado,
I used rubberized undercoating -- $3 a can at Wallyworld -- because it actually cures. I've also known people who soaked their posts with used motor oil, but there are more cons than pros to that approach as far as I'm concerned.
The other thing I did was laminate my own posts out of 2X6's instead of using one solid pole -- saves some on overall cost and you also get more thoroughly treated lumber that way.

 

[Knotbored]

Has anyone considered making concrete poles?
I live in the northwest-wet area and every fence pole I ever set has molded away (cedar, green peelers, metal.)
It seems a 6X6" concrete pole with attachments to face them with 2X above ground would be solid, inexpensive and non-corroding.
I am considering an out-building but don't yet trust the pole barn concept.

 

[Megado]

I've spent time reading through a ton of threads on the topic since posting my question and found where "stone dust" seems to be a highly recommended backfill. However, no one seems to say where you can purchase stone dust? That's a material I haven't heard mentioned around my neck of the woods where my property is located near Brenham, Texas. Is it something that comes in bags and is available at building supply stores like McCoy's, Lowe's or HD? Or do you have to order a load from the quarry? The soil on my property is a mixture of sandy loam and clay. I noticed while tamping in fence post that clay compacts well, however, the sandy soil is too silty for good compaction. The stone dust seems like a good alternative if I can find it.

Thoughts?

 

[cowsrus]

Megado- around here we have what is called "screenings" which I think is what your talking about. The only place I know to get it is from a rock quarry. Anyone who hauls crushed stone should be able to get it. Or you could pick it up yourself if you just wanted a small amount.It is real fine rock and packs like cement with minimal amount of tamping.

 

[SteelDust]

Russman - As of now I'm drafting up a set of drawings that I'll build off of. Basically everything going into the drawings is from research I've done on TBN. As we all know, this site is the best thing since sliced bread (as the saying goes). The wealth of knowledge is vast and I've learned a tremendous amount just thumbing through the various threads. My biggest problem at the moment is me suffering from analysis paralysis. I've been so busy analyzing every aspect of building this barn that nothing has gotten started. My wife finally laid down the law and said to get things rolling or she'll go find someone to put it up for her. Yikes! I've been following the thread by SteelDust Want to see yet another pole building? - Page 3 - TractorByNet.com and really like what he's done so far. Hopefully he'll update soon with new photos and progress report. To answer your question though...yes I do plan on having a loft. Will be used mainly for misc storage since horse stalls and hay storage are not in the picture at the moment.

I was talking with a buddy contractor today and posed my same question to him to get his ideas on setting post. He mentioned something that I hadn't thought of and figured I'd throw it out there to see if anyone had any experience or thoughts on it. He said that he actually paints on or coats the in-ground portion of his PT post with roofing tar before setting them in place as an extra means of rot protection. Logically that makes sense. Has anyone done this?

Thanks for the replies so far...

Jim H.

Awful northwest weather and little daylight have slowed things down for me quite a bit. I'll bump the thread with a picture of where she stands now and continue to update as things move along.

 

[jimmysisson]

Around here (New England) it's considered risky to coat a post in the ground. The thinking goes that the post gets wet somehow, then the coating won't let it dry to the ground.
Virtually all the potential rot happens in the top 6" of ground, where there's oxygen, I guess. Our soils are clay and silt, rarely pervious material. We have some pole buildings we put up 30 years ago with no detectable rot at grade, using the old CCA treated, not the new stuff.
Jim

 

[EddieWalker]

If you are going to put posts in the ground, be sure they are Presure Treated for ground contact. There is a HUGE difference between preasure treated wood that's used for decks, posts and piers. Standard lumber in the 2 inch catagory, like 2x4's and 2x6's are for decks and similar structures. They are not rated for ground contact, or to be buried in the ground.

Posts are usualy rated for ground contact and have a much higher rating. Take the time to read the labels.

Laminating multiple boards together will give you a stronger post, but unless they are rated for ground contact, it will rot much sooner. You can probably special order 2x6's for this, but I've never done this and don't know for sure.

Sealing a post may or may not help. I don't do it, but I've never seen first hand any proof that it does any harm.

I don't think the cement "cookies" or putting rocks at the bottom of the post actually does anything. The bottom of the post isn't were the rot happens, and I think you actually increase the water storage at the bottom of a hole by adding those things to the bottom of the hole.

If I'm working in good clay, then I like to backfill with the clay. I packs super hard and creates a very solid seal on the post. In sandy soils, I use concrete. The trick to concrete on any post, is to fill the hole to overfilling above the surounding ground level. Then you create a slope from the post down to the ground. The concrete is to act as an island above standing water and to shed water away from the post as fast as possible.

There is one place that posts always rot out first. It's the same for fences and buildings. That is at ground level. Standing water and wet surface dirt are the cause of 99% of all rot on wood posts. Get the water away from there and you will add decades to the life of your posts.

Eddie

 

[bjcsc]

Eddie is spot on in my opinion. When I fenced, I used marine rated posts. The longevity was worth the extra cost, and I know a guy that owns a marine construction company so I got a pretty good deal.

The only thing I haven't seen mentioned is the orientation of the long posts. Most people put them in the wrong way (fatter end in the ground). The end with the taper goes in the ground...

 

[john_bud]

Eddie,

FYI - the round paver stone in the bottom of the hole is to help spread out the weight so the pole doesn't sink into the ground. Nothing to do about water flow.

But my experience is only from one (1) pole building and the reading for it.


jb

 

[EddieWalker]

John,

While I can see where it would help to have a bigger footprint at the bottom fo the hole for the post, I don't know if it's actually needed. From what I've read, it's common practice in some locations, but I've never heard of a pole sinking further into the ground without a cement disk at the bottom of the hole.

Sunset Magazine had a story about fence posts that got me to thinking about all this quite awhile ago. Until they wrote the article and said that you had to do all those things, I never doubted any of it. They went into allot of detail on why you have to put rocks, a brick or a cement disk at the bottom of the post. It made sense at first, but when I tried it, I saw allot of potential for water storage down there. The reasoning behind using those items at the bottom of the hole was for drainage and to allow the bottom of the post to dry out faster. I thought that the loose dirt would fill every cavity down there and act as a sponge to retain water.

My understanding of how a post functions is that it's strength is in the contact of its sides along the hole it's in. For more strength, you go deeper, which allows for more side to side contact.

When I build a fence, deck or pole type building, I just drill the holes to the depth I need them and put in the pole. I see more potential problems with adding anything to the hole as I see predicted advantages.

Eddie

 

[bjcsc]

My understanding of how a post functions is that it's strength is in the contact of its sides along the hole it's in. For more strength, you go deeper, which allows for more side to side contact.

That's exactly right, but it only works if you put the post in the ground the correct way. Many of the pole buildings I see (even on this site) have the poles upside-down. When they're upside down, all the weight transfers to the tip of the pole in the ground instead of to the sides...(the same disadvantage of square poles)

 

[wedge40]

Eddie is spot on in my opinion. When I fenced, I used marine rated posts. The longevity was worth the extra cost, and I know a guy that owns a marine construction company so I got a pretty good deal.

The only thing I haven't seen mentioned is the orientation of the long posts. Most people put them in the wrong way (fatter end in the ground). The end with the taper goes in the ground...

I haven't been around a pole barn being constructed. But are the poles really tapered? I know I dont have the greatest eye sight, but from the photos I've seen here I can't see any taper.

Wedge

 

[cdhd2001]

standard 2x? are rated "0.25 above ground"

4x4 and 4x6 are rated "0.40 ground contact"

For my deck I was going to use 2-2x6's to make a 4x6, but changed my mind after reading the treatment level sticker. I went with 4x6's rated at 0.40.

I also poured 1" thick crushed rock in the hole with an 8" dia. 2" thick concrete block. Made it easier to level and hold the post.

I also drove six 6" long galvanized timber spikes into the bottom (sides, spaced 6" apart) of my posts. This acts like rebar and secures the post to the concrete.

 

[bjcsc]

I haven't been around a pole barn being constructed. But are the poles really tapered? I know I dont have the greatest eye sight, but from the photos I've seen here I can't see any taper.

Wedge

A lot of the pole barns on this site are using square poles. The large poles are tapered just like the trees they come from. It's not a great difference, but you can tell one end is smaller than the other. If you ever watch them drive wooden pilings for houses (very common around here) you'll notice that they drill a pilot hole and drive the posts in small end first. I'll' try to find some examples on this site...


Here's one: The tall pole is obviously in upside down...

 

[bjcsc]

To be fair, on a structure that won't be supporting much weight, it may not matter that much but I still thought the correct orientation should be part of this thread...I'm certainly not picking at any of the projects here as I find them all to be excellent!!