pole barn squareness?

mopower440 · Dec 22, 2003

dumbdog, thanks, thats what i was thinking, Junkman, what do you mean secure the 2x4 brace to the girts? I always see the brace running from post to post..?

Also, next question, actually 2.
1.--when i start putting up the truss supports, how do i make sure i stay level all the way from the front to the back,? I used a level on the first side but it didnt work to good because of the lumber being bowed some..?
2.-- when i put up the truss supports on the opposite wall, how do i be sure to keep them EXACTLY level with the ones on the opposite wall? In other words, my building is 24 ft. wide, so if i had a 24 ft. level to run accross the thing, that would work, but obviously i dont, so what do i do? dont want the roof to be on lopsided..
thanks again for all your help everyone, this has definately been a job~!

Junkman · Dec 22, 2003

What I was saying was to run the diagonal bracing from top of one post to the bottom of the next post and then to reverse the diagonal bracing on the other side of the post so when you step back, it will look like an X between the posts. If you are familiar with "let in" bracing procedures, you can use this procedure on the outside of the building where the sheathing is placed. A lot of the comments that have been made assume that you have some level of carpentry skills and methods. If you are lacking these, it is better to ask the questions looking for further explanation than to proceed and possibly create a dangerous situation.....

rambler · Dec 22, 2003

50' of clear tube, some dye (if you want) and filled with water makes a great level for things like you are doing. That is how they did it before laser levels.... If you keep the air bubbles & kinks out, the water will be level on both ends of the tube.

--->Paul

CTyler · Dec 22, 2003

A line/string level would do what you need. Just make sure its pulled really tight. Zip the level across the string and check it in a few spots to be sure its not sagging anywhere. A a self leveling rotating laser would be darn handy. I bought a Robolaser w/remote this summer for various jobs and it is sweet!

Junkman · Dec 22, 2003

( 50' of clear tube, some dye (if you want) and filled with water makes a great level for things like you are doing. That is how they did it before laser levels.... If you keep the air bubbles & kinks out, the water will be level on both ends of the tube.

--->Paul )

Paul... I have used these and have used windshield washer fluid in the tube, however after my last experience, I no longer will. It seems that at a certain point the surface tension in the tube will restrict the flow of the liquid and it will not be exact. It all depends on what you want to level and how accurate it must be. I see it as a crude tool for a crude measurement. Today, it is faster and more accurate with a spinning laser level. I have noticed that the prices are dropping like a stone on them from when I purchased mine. Still worth every penny that I paid in time savings alone....

SteveBenson · Dec 22, 2003

I used a water level on my barn. I found it to be fairly accurate, but it took a long time because it's a trial and error process and you have to wait for the water to settle down after every attempt. A rotary laser would be the way to go. You can rent them a most rental places now.

mopower440 · Dec 22, 2003

Junkman, but how do i put the cross brace on the outside of the posts because there is already the girts on the outside? also Junkman, about getting the truss supports level with the ones on the wall across from it , and even keeping them level on one side, how do you use that laser level? My dad has one, i dont know if its a rotating one like you speak of, but, please explain, if it will work, that would be great, please explain. and thanks!

Junkman · Dec 22, 2003

to say the least, I know nothing about pole barn building, but I do know about wood construction methods. I believe that you would have to remove the girts and set the bracing. A "let in" brace is a diagonal brace that is set into a cut in the beam and nailed in place. It is done by resting the brace against the beam where it is going to go and making a pencil mark on the top and bottom of the brace where it crosses the post. Then using a circular saw that is set to the depth of the brace, usually 1 1/2", you cut out the area between the top and bottom pencil marks. Then you chisel out the remaining wood so the brace sits even with the face of the upright post. Then reinstall your girts.
A rotating laser level has a receiver that beeps when it is sensing the signal from the laser. If the beep is one tone, it means that the sensor is high. If it is a different tone, then it is low. If it is steady, then it is exactly at the level of the rotating beam. Different brands work slightly differently than described, but for the most part, they are all similar.
The truss supports would be done the same way as described above using the laser level and then measuring up the beam to where you want to place them.
I hope that these instructions make sense to you, but I am not a technical writer and it might not be as clear as someone else might explain it. If you need additional help, I am certain that more experienced people here will come to your rescue. Pole barn building is unlike a stick built house construction, which I am familiar with. The only reason that I can help you with the bracing is that it is commonly used in home building and the principals are the same...

CTyler · Dec 23, 2003

( about getting the truss supports level with the ones on the wall across from it , and even keeping them level on one side, how do you use that laser level? )

You'll need a hanger to hold up the laser at the hieght you need. You can buy one thats moveable or screw something up to set it on.

When mine was build they shot it then shimed the truss if needed. Were only talking a 1/2" max here. There were several that needed to be shimmed.

One you have the laser up and start shooting you'll see where your at all the way around.

SteveBenson · Dec 23, 2003

mopower440,

You are getting some advice in different techniques of post-frame construction. On one side you are getting some advice referring to the more traditional methods that involve notching the posts to accept the girders, girts, and bracing. The traditional approach is probably better suited when using round or roughly cut poles.

The modern (or maybe I should just say less-traditional) approach is just to simply nail your girts to the outside of the posts and nail your sidewall girders to the inside and outside of your posts. Since the girders are taking the load of the roof simply nailing them to the posts is not sufficient. Instead of notching the girders into the posts to support the heavy load, "scab boards" are nailed to the post below the girders to provide additional support for the girders. Typically, on a 6x6 post you would nail a 2x6 on the post between the girder and the topmost girt (about a 20" 2x6 if you are using 2' girt spacing) and put about a dozen nails in it. This effectively gives you a notch for you girder to sit in without having to notch the pole. You need a scab board below both the inside and outside girder, though you may not have girts on the inside of you posts. I’m not an expert when it comes to scab boards, but I would make sure they are at least 18”. If they are too short the wood might split around the nails. Girts aren't loaded heavily so you can just nail them to the post. But, make sure you use pole barn spikes. They are case hardened and ring-shanked. Regular nails don't cut it in this type of post-frame construction. This especially important the bigger your building is.

If I were to use a 2x4 brace top-to-bottom brace with the modern post-frame construction I would probably just cut it to butt up against the posts and nail it to the inside of the girders and skirt board right where they meet the post. I would also nail it to all the girts it intersects as a long 2x4 like this (I guessing at least 12') will not support much of a load in compression without buckling. Securing the brace to the girts will significantly strengthen the brace. Also, if you put one of these braces at each end of the wall then one will always be in tension and one in compression when the building is subject to a wind load. That's a good thing. This is like the X bracing that was mentioned, but it is not necessary for the braces to actually cross and form an X. A V shape with a post (or several) in the middle is just as effective. A top-to-bottom brace is a large brace. I wouldn’t think you would need to put a top to bottom brace between every set of poles. For a 24x30 you probably could just put 2 (counter-acting) per wall at the corners.

mopower440 · Dec 23, 2003

My dad has one of those little yellow laser levels they advertise on TV all the time that are being sold at lowes and home depot, would it work to level the truss supports from one wall to the opposite wall? or is this laser level you guys are speaking of different?

SteveBenson · Dec 23, 2003

I'm not sure what laser you are talking about. If it's that one they advertise for hang pictures and shelves, then it is probably not accurate enough. You could probably buy a good straight line laser level, but that's a little more work. I've never used a rotary level but it seems that (at least with the good self leveling ones) that you just set it up on a tri-pod and turn it on and it sweeps out a level plane and you just go around and mark a level reference line on all your posts. If you measure everything off that line then everything else should be level too. All the laser levels I have seen have an accuracy rating at a given distance (usually 100' I think). You have to look at that and decide what is good enough for you. Others could probably give you better advice on the rotary levels. Like I said, I've seen them for rent at all the rental shops.

mopower440 · Dec 23, 2003

sounds good, but seeing as i already have the truss supports up on one wall, could i still use that rotary laser level to match the next side i do with the side already done?

SteveBenson · Dec 23, 2003

I don't see why not. Once you have your level reference plane marked on all your poles you can just measure the side you already have done and make the other side match.

mopower440 · Dec 24, 2003

I dont know, but i need to decide something, i would like to get the truss supports on the other wall on sunday maybe, just want to make dang sure they are level with the ones on the opposite wall, dont want the roof to be lopsided, wish i had a 24 foot long level..wonder if a string level run from the wall i have done to the other wall would work? how accurate are these?

Glenn9643 · Dec 24, 2003

If you pull your string tight a string level will get you pretty close. Then you can go to the center and check it with a 4' level and a stepladder. If the 4' level indicates that you are off a little, make adjustments and re-check. Just remember that you aren't building a watch; on a building the size you're building you'll never notice if one side is an inch higher or lower than the other...

Good luck with it and have a Merry Christmas!

riptides · Dec 25, 2003

I have a tiny little level that actually hangs on the string.
Difficult to see, but, it really helps out. Check your local hardware store for one of these. I had to us it across my
16X24 shed.

Merry Christmas to all.
-Mike Z. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

gerard · Dec 25, 2003

While a rotary laser level is the easiest way to set a reference all the way around, you can use a staight laser level on a tripod almsot as effectively. They coast about $20, set it on the tripod in the middle of the structure, put the dot on a post, level and mark the dot with a pencil. Put the dot on the next post. level and mark. Do that for all the posts then using a speed square run a straight line on all 4 sides of each post. Now you have a reference line on every post at the same height and you can put your level away. Use a ruler from there out and measure up from the reference line for headers window openings etc.

Also ditto on not using a 2x 6 for a 16 foot span. There's a reason they don't make the 2 x 6 longer than 16 feet - if you need longer you also need wider for strength. double 2x12 sounds about right for a 16 foot header

SteveBenson · Dec 25, 2003

>you can use a staight laser level on a tripod almsot as effectively. They coast about $20, set it on the tripod in the middle of the structure, put the dot on a post, level and mark the dot with a pencil. Put the dot on the next post. level and mark.

Gerard,

Are those striaght line levels on a tripod are designed to be rotated manually and maintain level? Just asking because I never used one.

I guess at minimum you'd have to make sure the tripod was securely mounted. I'll have to give it a try on my next building. It's sounds cheap and I'm getting real sick of the water level. I guess it's easy enough to check for repeatability after you rotate it.

-Steve

mopower440 · Dec 25, 2003

$20.00? cheap enough, but now explain what a straight laser level is and where to get it? oh, and will it level one side with the side ive already put up? see, ive got the truss support up on one wall already, when i do the next wall, i want them to be level with the other wall..