Seriously...TPMS?

[rsallen]

So who volunteers to be an innocent for this greater cause? Let's see a show of hands.

Audi and a very few other European manufacturers did (no longer) offer the option of turning off the ABS for a couple of reasons. Probably the biggest being (like apparently still) the perception the they get in the way of 'feel'. The other reason, more reasonable imho, is that there are some maneuvers with a car that just can not be done when the ABS is in operation.

And I would offer that anyone that uses brakes to test how the driving surface is holding is already too detached from the driving experience to be playing around with no ABS. Because I don't volunteer to be an innocent.

 

[GolfAddict]

How is it a "bad" law? ...

Because it is another mandate from our government, and I don't like my government mandating me to purchase things.

You are giving excellent arguments for the advantages of having TPMS, and I happen to agree with them. I think TPMS is a great idea and appreciate that my car has it. Here are some other things my car has. I'd be curious to know which of these you think would also be a good law to force people to purchase.

-It also has rain-sensing wipers and I love them. When they come on, my headlights go on. Love that too.

-It has a backup camera and I think that's great too.

-It has ABS brakes.

-It has Heads Up Display.

-It has daytime running lights.

-There is this lane departure warning that buzzes one of my legs, whichever side I'm drifting over on, and shows up a little car icon going out of it's lane on the display. It's pretty cool, and can no doubt save many accidents.

-It has this blind spot warning thing that's really cool too. Shows a little icon light of my car and another car in my blind spot on the side view mirrors.

-It has this feature that tells you if a car is coming either way cross traffic if you are in reverse, like backing out of a parking spot or driveway. Shows an icon on which side it's coming and buzzes your leg on that side.

-As I come up behind another car, a little green icon shows up shaped like the rear of a car. If you get too close, it turns yellow. If it turns red you're really close and about to hit. It will apply brakes, tighten seat belt, some other things too I can't remember. If you had the cruise control on you're OK though, cause it already slowed you down to match the speed of the car ahead.

-It has a navigation system that talks to me when I want it to. Warns me when turns are coming up, which lane I need to be in, that kind of thing. Really helpful when you are trying to find your way somewhere and makes me much less of a hazard to other drivers.

-It has front and rear airbags, side air bags, knee air bags, curtain airbags.

It probably has more safety features that I'm not remembering right now. It has all these things because I wanted them and was willing to pay for them. They are great safety features, in my opinion anyway.

I don't think they'd make good laws...

 

[check]

:thumbsup: Next up: they are pushing for mandated back up cameras

Now that I could go for! I have one on mt F150 and it is invaluable.

 

[rsallen]

Golfaddict are you asking which of those in your list are mandated? Or about the ones that are so ubiquitous in todays world that they have become standard equipment because of the obvious advantages of them?

 

[GolfAddict]

I'm asking what he thinks should be mandated. If he thinks TPMS makes a good law, what other sort of safety features should be made a law? Surely this isn't the only one...

 

[DK35vince]

And I would offer that anyone that uses brakes to test how the driving surface is holding is already too detached from the driving experience to be playing around with no ABS. Because I don't volunteer to be an innocent.

Are you serious. That statement is ridiculous.
Its exactly the opposite.
The person that doesn't have enough control over the brakes themselves and rely on the vehicle and ABS to do the stopping for them or needs traction control to control the throttle/acceleration for them in poor conditions is the one detached

 

[rsallen]

Completely serious.
You can't be serious to think you can out perform ABS in any circumstance you care to name.

Myself I'm not a real fan of traction control (an off shoot of ABS) and turn it off when I have the chance, but that's only because it doesn't allow me to play.
For every day point a to point b though it doesn't get in the way so what's the big deal? After all another off shoot of ABS/traction control is the antiskid/roll over featured in many of the top heavy vehicles made today...... after all one never knows about the next bend.
That computer thinks and corrects about a million time faster than you or I can.

To ABS though, go head to head with the rawest driver you can find in a braking test; you with no ABS them with, heck use a skid pad if you want use snow if you want, dirt, dry pavement any condition you want. That raw driver will out perform you in braking in every way.
Yeah, I'm serious.

 

[aczlan]

Completely serious.
You can't be serious to think you can out perform ABS in any circumstance you care to name.

Myself I'm not a real fan of traction control (an off shoot of ABS) and turn it off when I have the chance, but that's only because it doesn't allow me to play.
For every day point a to point b though it doesn't get in the way so what's the big deal? After all another off shoot of ABS/traction control is the antiskid/roll over featured in many of the top heavy vehicles made today...... after all one never knows about the next bend.
That computer thinks and corrects about a million time faster than you or I can.

To ABS though, go head to head with the rawest driver you can find in a braking test; you with no ABS them with, heck use a skid pad if you want use snow if you want, dirt, dry pavement any condition you want. That raw driver will out perform you in braking in every way.
Yeah, I'm serious.

While I generally agree with your statement, in low traction situations (deep snow, gravel, dirt, etc) ABS can actually cause longer stopping distances. From Wikipedia:

A 2004 Australian study by Monash University Accident Research Centre found that ABS:[1]
Reduced the risk of multiple vehicle crashes by 18 percent,
Increased the risk of run-off-road crashes by 35 percent.
On high-traction surfaces such as bitumen, or concrete, many (though not all) ABS-equipped cars are able to attain braking distances better (i.e. shorter) than those that would be possible without the benefit of ABS. In real world conditions, even an alert and experienced driver without ABS would find it difficult to match or improve on the performance of a typical driver with a modern ABS-equipped vehicle. ABS reduces chances of crashing, and/or the severity of impact. The recommended technique for non-expert drivers in an ABS-equipped car, in a typical full-braking emergency, is to press the brake pedal as firmly as possible and, where appropriate, to steer around obstructions. In such situations, ABS will significantly reduce the chances of a skid and subsequent loss of control.
In gravel, sand and deep snow, ABS tends to increase braking distances. On these surfaces, locked wheels dig in and stop the vehicle more quickly. ABS prevents this from occurring. Some ABS calibrations reduce this problem by slowing the cycling time, thus letting the wheels repeatedly briefly lock and unlock. Some vehicle manufacturers provide an "off-road" button to turn ABS function off. The primary benefit of ABS on such surfaces is to increase the ability of the driver to maintain control of the car rather than go into a skid, though loss of control remains more likely on soft surfaces such as gravel or on slippery surfaces such as snow or ice. On a very slippery surface such as sheet ice or gravel, it is possible to lock multiple wheels at once, and this can defeat ABS (which relies on comparing all four wheels, and detecting individual wheels skidding). Availability of ABS relieves most drivers from learning threshold braking.

Aaron Z

 

[rsallen]

Oops my bad Golfaddict, I thought it was directed at me.

 

[check]

Completely serious. You can't be serious to think you can out perform ABS in any circumstance you care to name. Myself I'm not a real fan of traction control (an off shoot of ABS) and turn it off when I have the chance, but that's only because it doesn't allow me to play. For every day point a to point b though it doesn't get in the way so what's the big deal? After all another off shoot of ABS/traction control is the antiskid/roll over featured in many of the top heavy vehicles made today...... after all one never knows about the next bend. That computer thinks and corrects about a million time faster than you or I can. To ABS though, go head to head with the rawest driver you can find in a braking test; you with no ABS them with, heck use a skid pad if you want use snow if you want, dirt, dry pavement any condition you want. That raw driver will out perform you in braking in every way. Yeah, I'm serious.

Different issues here. ABS is great for stopping and maintaining control in a skid. But, I still test the traction periodically when on a snowy or changing road, so I can adjust my travel speed accordingly. The simple reason is that the ABS will not save you if you go around a corner way too fast - you will be making a visit to the ditch

Moreover, a visual assessment of the road is not enough in a lot of cases. You really need to test for traction by braking in a safe place (not a curve) to see how easily you lose traction. It only makes sense, as I tell myself every time I come across another ditched driver who took a turn too fast.

 

[ruffdog]

I have had 16 vehicles with abs over the years. Most of the early ones I could hear and feel the abs motor doing it's thing trying to keep the tires from skidding. Some were not too bad while some would cycle too slowly to be fully effective. Over the years the abs systems have been getting much better. I'm really surprised at my latest ride, a new GMC 1500. I have not "felt" the abs at all. We have had some bad ice on the roads that you could hardly walk on it too. While trying to skid, there is no buzzing through the peddle, no pulsing action of the brakes at all. The truck just stops. I was delivering sand to my parents house after the ice storm because the have a nasty off camber turn on a hill on their driveway. The truck went down that with no drama at all. Amazing!

 

[rsallen]

Aczlan,
Read the text more carefully; it states SOME systems and not all.
I would submit the boarder line systems they were panning were the 'meet a/the profit/sales line' to an uneducated public.
But it's true if I were doing motocross ABS would not be used.......however TPM might be real useful.

And no Check,
We're not talking about different issues.
If you're not feeling the car through the seat of your pants and steering feed back then you're too detached to know what is going on to be screwing around on the brakes.

 

[aczlan]

Aczlan,
Read the text more carefully; it states SOME systems and not all.
I would submit the boarder line systems they were panning were the 'meet a/the profit/sales line' to an uneducated public.
But it's true if I were doing motocross ABS would not be used.......however TPM might be real useful.

Specifically, it says "Some ABS calibrations reduce this problem by slowing the cycling time, thus letting the wheels repeatedly briefly lock and unlock."

Aaron Z

 

[kenmac]

The lights have made it worse? Not even close. Before TPMS there were more cars on the road with under inflated tires...plain and simple. Seeing people on the side of the road with "blow outs", and flats, used to be far more common than it is now, and a part of that is TPMS. Sure, tires are probably better, but the average car is heavier today than it was 30 years ago (yes, they really are), so they need to be, and the speed limits are as high as they have ever been....most of the highway I drive to work is all 70mph zones, and that's common. Smart people see the light come on, and do something about it. In the past, they drove until the tire was ruined, or worse. Stupid people there really isn't a fix for.

Checking the tires before you leave does nothing to help the common situations where you pick up debris while you're driving....nothing at all.

Where do you come up with this stuff. Cars are heavier today than they were 30 yrs ago ??? Really ???? Auto makers aren't getting the fuel mileage they are getting out of these autos by building them heavier. around 30 yrs ago the imports were getting better gas mileage than us made vehicles . You know why ???? Smaller engines smaller vehicles that were lighter in weight. There's not a lot of magic in getting fuel mileage... Loose weight !!!! All vehicles today are made out of lighter weight material than they were 30 yrs ago.. that's a fact !!!. I also see cars all over the side of the road with flat blown out tires. I know you don't believe it but, people still drive with the light on thinking they'll air up the tire when they get a chance. TPMS does nothing for a sudden blow out when someone runs over an object on the hwy. Like truckers, I give my vehicles a look B-4 I just jump in and drive off

 

[kenmac]

The NHTSA report I linked earlier gave their stats. I think they said around 33K accidents annually are caused by under inflated tires, and those led to around 600 fatalities. I guess it would only help if you're one of those 600 or so who might have benefited from a system telling the driver that something was wrong in advance of it become a bigger problem.

There's proof that TPMS would have prevented any of these. If you want someone to follow you around and make sure you don't hurt yourself ,or help you out when you need it ,that's ok with me. I'm a full grown man and don't need anyone (especially the government) to follow me around to wipe my butt.. Really !! I can handle it !!!

 

[rsallen]

Whoa Kenmac,
As far as I know the only mandates are with individual state inspections.
Most say that IF the vehicles is equipped with such or such they must be in working order.

Most of what is going around on this thread is not federally mandated.

 

[ruffdog]

If someone is having lots of flats and blow-outs, maybe you need better tires, or stop driving through the salvage yard????

 

[GManBart]

Because it is another mandate from our government, and I don't like my government mandating me to purchase things.

You are giving excellent arguments for the advantages of having TPMS, and I happen to agree with them. I think TPMS is a great idea and appreciate that my car has it. Here are some other things my car has. I'd be curious to know which of these you think would also be a good law to force people to purchase.

The only things on the list that I'd agree with as laws are ABS, and TPMS. Pretty much all the other stuff can be covered by safe driving practices. On the other hand, nobody can stop a car in panic conditions as well as ABS can (on average), and nobody can tell when their tires first start to lose pressure. That's why those two things have become mandatory, or so it seems.

 

[GManBart]

While I generally agree with your statement, in low traction situations (deep snow, gravel, dirt, etc) ABS can actually cause longer stopping distances.

True, but tires with tread blocks, grooves, and sipes increase stopping distances on dry pavement, but nobody complains about that right?

 

[check]

Aczlan,
Read the text more carefully; it states SOME systems and not all.
I would submit the boarder line systems they were panning were the 'meet a/the profit/sales line' to an uneducated public.
But it's true if I were doing motocross ABS would not be used.......however TPM might be real useful.

And no Check,
We're not talking about different issues.
If you're not feeling the car through the seat of your pants and steering feed back then you're too detached to know what is going on to be screwing around on the brakes.

Yes we are talking about different issues. ABS is for when you are already in trouble. And, if you are at the point where you can feel it through the steering wheel or the seat of your pants, then you have already gone too fast. I am talking about not getting to that point in the first place.